Mikec7z

and if the new injectors dont flow 150% more fuel than stock, then they arent 2000HP injectors. I guess i should point that out too, i am taking your word for the fact that you are indeed in the creation process of an injector that is capable of 2000hp

In simple terms, they should have 5 holes for every 2 holes on the stock injector... or the holes themselves have to be bigger diameter than stock holes (which is why i explained in my first post, you will be losing DI vaporization characteristics at the lower flow rates required to put adequate fuel in the chamber while simply driving down the road at 40mph)

does your new injector have 150% more holes or are the holes set to flow 150% more fuel due to their diameter? If not, you don't have a 2000hp injector coming to market Just being real.

Either way, even if it only flow 80% more, or 100% more, it would be something many of us would love to purchase, and I am very glad you are attempting to make something that flows more than 30% of our stock injectors.. I am not criticizing, I am simply explaining what you are implying by saying 2000hp and thus where my math is to make my conclusions I am making to be willing to place a bet that the injectors will flow 965 crank hp on the stock fuel system.

Katech_Zach

There would be no reason we would fit fuel injectors capable of supporting 2000hp to a stock fuel system, so I'm not sure what you want to bet on. For some reason you think I'm debating you on this which I am not. My original post was simply correcting your incorrect statement about the stock DI pump being capable of supporting 965hp on E85.

Katech_Zach

This is not puzzling to me. A pump pumping into an open bucket will flow more than a pump pushing against a resistance.

Mikec7z

I edited my post above.

And again, i disagree with this statement you just made. I do believe the stock fuel system, when paired to DI injectors capable of flowing 2000hp worth of fuel if paired to the proper pumps, i do believe that such injectors on the stock fuel pumps could easily do 820 at the wheels, 965 at the crank.

And im willing to bet on it

Katech_Zach

Ok. So now I understand what you are trying to say. That if an injector that is not on the market yet is paired with a stock LT4 DI pump it may be able to make 965hp on E85. Okay. We can debate theoretical combinations of parts that don't exist yet all day long. I was simply correcting your statement that you can make 965hp on E85 with the stock DI pump. Maybe I should have put the disclaimer that said something about actual testing using parts that currently exist.

Katech_Zach

You don't have to take my word for it. You can take it from the Le Mans-winning Audi team Bosch engineer we've partnered with.

Mikec7z

If the injector flows 150% more fuel vs the stock injectors, with equal pressure behind them at higher flow rates (whatever stock pressure is on the DI system) then I am willing to place any dollar amount wager that you are comfortable with matching, that the stock fuel system, with the 30% lobe, as your current car has, will be able to achieve 820 to the wheels.

As far as mocking your injectors capability as fantasy or hypothetical... they are your product. Not mine or your competitors. Not sure what your goal was with that one.

Katech_Zach

Please re-read my post #25. I'm not debating you on this theoretical parts configuration.

Mikec7z

and if the set of injectors does not flow 150% more fuel, with equal back pressure at higher flow rates (3 stock DI pumps behind them) then you don't have 2000hp injectors.

Mikec7z

if your new injectors, make above 1600hp without port injection or meth.... in any configuration...

I will bet those injectors will create 820 at the wheels with a stock fuel system and a 30% lobe.

I dont know how much more stright forward I can be.

And you already did debate me, you said i was wrong after my first post. So now im willing to bet.

Katech_Zach

You're not following what I'm saying. I'm not betting you because I don't disagree with you on the above in bold.

You are still wrong that using existing parts the stock DI pump and existing injectors that you cannot make 965hp on E85. That is what I was correcting. That is all.

Mikec7z

i debated letting this statement go... but its a really low blow. Not once did i say the stock injectors would be part of the equation. From the get go, i said the 2000hp injectors are what will make a big difference in the fuel system. "you are still wrong" is just fighting words to begin with... then you pair it with a statement i never said.

Its a below the belt hit. This will be my last post. And i do believe it is possible to acheive 965 crank which is 820 wheel...

(not sure why you agree with 820 and disagree with the other 965 crank, seems to me you are trying to save face for the less educated viewers)

...on an apples to apples dyno as yours, or even your dyno without changing any calibrations... i do believe it is possible that the stock fuel system, without the 30% lobe, and WITH ONLY your claimed 2000hp injectors, will achieve 965 crank, especially on a 2019 z06... but I'm not willing to bet my life savings on it, but I would throw a hundred or 2 at it without hesitation. But my gut says it will happen and im right. However, I would bet any amount of money, on the 30% lobe and the 2000hp injectors together, making 965 crank on your dyno, on any year z06.

And if you made an opening statement saying otherwise, i would never say YOU'RE WRONG, right now today, before we actually test it. I would say, here is my belief, here is what I'm willing to wager with anyone who wants to believe otherwise, lets find out who's right and have some fun. Lets make the product and test it and find out. (and this thread shows that that is how i would operate, as that is exactly what I did)

Keep in mind, my first post, included upgrading the stock in tank fuel pump setup, and the 2000hp injectors... and you told me I was wrong (incorrect) way back there. Lets go back to that and make that bet.

You have no remorse or hesitation to tell people they are wrong or are incorrect... which is fine, maybe they are. But, if i am willing to cross the line and tell someone they are wrong, I'm always willing to put money behind it, because i indeed actually think they are wrong, im not just throwing the words around to look like a hot shot or rub people the wrong way.

You apparently don't seem to care. So you use the words "you are wrong and you are incorrect" when you yourself aren't even sure if people are incorrect or wrong, enough to place a fun wager on something. Then you try to make them out to have said things they never said. I feel like im back in elementary school dealing with a kid who wants to be the coolest in the class.

I don't feel comfortable trying to keep peace with people who open sentences with "you're wrong" on car parts that are not yet even on the market yet, that have yet to be tested.

Have a good one. Let us know about your 150% higher flow injectors when they hit the market.

Katech_Zach

I would be mad too if I said YOU"RE WRONG before we actually tested something. You are so fixated on the theoretical combination of parts using the 2000hp injectors that are not on the market yet, you're not hearing me when I'm saying the stock DI pump will not supply 965hp on E85 using injectors on the market today.

Mikec7z

i heard you, and you are unwilling to remember your logic that a pump flows more fuel with less restriction at the end of the line.

A hose with your thumb on it flows less water than a hose without your thumb on the end.

now, cut the opening down 70% from when your thumb is on it (opposite of a 150% increase in flow capacity) and you will flow even less. Both set of injectors are your thumb on the end of the hose, one set flows 150% more, the other, relatively speaking, 70% less)

You are increasing the opening of the hole at the end of the hose... thats what 2000hp injectors are.

And you keep claiming your test with your stock injectors proves me wrong.

At this point, i dont think you have a clue what you are talking about, or you lack the ability to admit you may have not thought about something long enough before you decided to argue.

And thus, i believe your audi porsche champion will take the time to show you what i have explained to you here.

In the mean time... place your wager against my original statement that you told me was incorrect... which was...


And after you let me know how much money you want to wager... and after you actually produce DI injectors capable of achieving 2000hp by themselves and no piggybacks of port injection or meth... and after we test my statement above.... ONE OF US... will have the right... to tell the other... they are WRONG or INCORRECT

Until then, good luck not rubbing people the wrong way when they are trying to help you make your systems better and more affordable.

Mikec7z

whats puzzling to me is how you can say this, and then 5 seconds later, act as if you don't understand it.

It absolutely is a puzzle to you. This thread is 100% evidence you are very confused.

Mikec7z

Then you wouldnt get along with your twin very well, because no where in the thread did i say you are wrong, i said here is my belief, and lets bet if you disagree.

You kept saying, you dont want to bet, but im wrong.

Think about it hot shot.

Mikec7z

In case you actually still don't understand how foolish this statement is...

if I put injectors in your car, which have half as many holes in the tips, and the holes are the same size as stock holes at the tips of the stock injectors to allow for half the amount of flow...

or, if i put injectors in your car which have the same amount of holes but the area of opening of each tiny hole is reducedf in opening area to allow for half the amount of flow....

Is the stock high side fuel pump going to still make it to 760rwhp on the katech dyno?

The answer is no. Ill help you out to avoid any further embarassment.

It probably wouldn't even make 450hp

Now, we only halved... the amount of area for the fuel to flow through the injector.

A 2000hp injector is very large% increase in hole area for literally 150%+++ of fuel to flow through vs the stock injector... OTHERWISE ITS NOT A 2000HP CAPABLE INJECTOR. (are you following?)
And you are telling me, and everyone else on this forum... ....

That to the best of your ability to think and reason, that you believe, that halving the injector's ability to flow fuel will have a significant impact on what the stock pump can flow, but increasing that opening area to allow for OVER DOUBLING the amount of fuel that can flow into the chamber... is not going to allow the car to pick up 60HP worth of fuel from its current "limit" of 760... that you are just so certain exists?


you were "correcting me" that you have found the limit to the stock DI pump as you pump a liquid through microscopic holes

You were CORRECTING me.

you were CORRECTING me.

I want you to think how arrogant you are.

This is a concept that is the same as attaching a blower to a car, and reducing the diameter of the pipe or increasing the diameter of the pipe, and a guy with a little pipe, running around, telling everyone he "knows that the blowers will only flow x amount of air to produce Y amount of power, and everyone else is WRONG, boost pipe diameter and TB diameter, do not matter".

We know the stock in tank pump can flow over 800hp on the 15-18s (Crawford racing proved it), and we know the high side can out pump the stock pump (fuel line pressure sensor indicates it up the tunnel of the car)...

so we know those 2 things are capable of over 800, without an orifice blocking them.

The orifice is the bottle neck. What is the orifice? The orifice is the DI injector's hole's areas.

I suggested that with a bigger in tank pump and bigger area for fuel to flow at the injector, we would get to 820 wheel, a mere 60 more hp than you start to see fuel pressure drop on a stock setup, and you "know I'm wrong".

I'm still waiting for your wager. Until you come up with one, please stop telling me I'm wrong or incorrect

Humy

I wet myself

Katech_Zach

I don't know how to make this any clearer. I do not disagree with you that a 2000hp injector might make 965hp on E85 with the stock DI pump. You might be right. We do not have testing yet. I do however have data showing that a stock DI pump cannot support 965hp on E85 with existing products on the market (+30% injectors). That is all I'm saying. Once you clarified what you were saying, I did say in post #25 that I understood you and I was talking about existing products on the market.

Mikec7z

while i wanted to believe that there was a misunderstanding, you killed your credibility with me when you claimed that i was wrong, and that my claim that an "existing injector and fuel pump" couldnt get the job done.

no where in the thread did i ever say existing injector was a key to success. No where. And you knew it.

So you were tying to make me look like a fool, to anyone who just stumbles into the thread and only read.... what you hoped... would be the last post.

Your actions dont match your above stated innocent intentions.
Post 31... after the "misunderstanding"... and lets be specific... "misunderstanding on your behalf"... since i have not changed my original first post yet, and it is very clear, as is every post after what my ideas were...

Post 31... You try to make me out to be an idiot. And think im just going to walk away.

Im not the idiot here, i can assure you.

Its kind of hard to correct someone Jason when they never actually said that. Real men take a knee and admit a misunderstanding. You keep insulting that I am below you and i need your correction.

You are a joke dude

Im done, people can see how you talked to me, and that... frankly... you are wrong. And thats the first time ive told you youre wrong, and if you dont like it, get your money out.