Mikec7z

i trust your data, but it has me confused on a concept that you may or may not be able to help me solve...

so by now you know im the king of complaining about the p0106 code since it affects my car and a few other peoples, and it happens when it is cold outside to my car and several others.

So that led me to believe that my car was making more boost pressure after the screws since the p0106 code is from an excessive MAP reading supposedly AFTER the screws.

My conclusion was that the screws were grabbing MORE molecules of air, per revolution, and thus creating more pressure in the manifold, since the more air molecules packed into an area equals more pressure, and the cold air they were grabbing from, is more dense with molecules.

That being said, your test is demonstrating the total opposite if I'm understanding you correctly.

You are implying that colder air is causing boost levels in the manifold to drop, instead of rise. This does not make sense to me because the screws are grabbing from denser and thus, more molecule per volume, air. So they should be putting more air molecules into the manifold per revolution or increment of time.... making more MAP pressure after the screws.

So here is my stab at what is going on, and I am not positive. But i think your system may be restricting the air flow a little bit, and leading to less map... but this is not a BAD thing... as i believe the cooler air is a positive tradeoff that outweighs the negative of the pressure drop, as the air still has more molecules entering the chamber since it is more dense.

Here is why this is actually a positive... i believe this system could be put on a stock car... and then a person could get away with porting the blower, and de-restricting the exhaust, etc... and still not reach the MAP threshold to hit p0106, but they WOULD be making much more power, on the stock tune, as now, the air coming in, would be more dense (since it is cooler).

I have a belief that p0106 can be thrown from the maf readings being too excessive as well, exceeding certain limits, but i am not sure of this. Either way, i believe your system is upstream of the MAF, is that correct? Or downstream of the MAF? Let me know, im trying to solve this puzzle and figure out where this can fit in on a stock car, without a tune, and what effects it will have

I hope you take it to sea level and test it on a 45 degree day, up past 155mph, to see if it throws the code or not.

Also, i never got an answer why a person would want to limit the cooling, i think i read early on that you had a bypass if the system got TOO cold.

If that is the case, please explain.

atljar

What happens to your tire pressures when it gets cold outside? PSI drops. Same thing on the track, tire temps go up and so does the pressure. Temperatures and pressures are directly related. Charles and Boyles laws. It's not solely about the amount of molecules, but rather the excitement level of those molecules. Hotter they are, the more they move around and effectively take up more space. In a confined space, that makes pressure rise. Cold molecules have limited movement, meaning you can pack more into a given volume. Or in a fixed space, chilling causes a pressure drop. In simple terms, that's why cold air makes more power. You have more o2 molecules in the same given volume of air going through the engine.

Its impossible for the chiller to be a restriction because no changes are made in the air path of car. The chiller only interferes with intercooler coolant flow.

Finally... About getting too cold. If the chiller is able to get intercooler fluid below ambiant, the then heat exchanger no longer is acting as a cooler, but rather a heater. In this case it will bypass so that you aren't heating the fluid towards ambiant
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Mikec7z

if this is indeed how the system works, then i agree with this and understand now.

as far as the tire pressure analogy... i agree that is how fixed amount of air molecules in an area behaves at colder temps... but again.. there is a lot more too an engine than a tire.

the screws grab x amount of air molecules from the maf intake side, per revolution. THe cooler the air it is grabbing from, the more molecules it grabs.

It is packing in the same volume of air into the map sensor location of the manifold, every rotation, the only question is, how many molecules are in that volume?

THe more molecules, the more 02 into the engine.

Again, i would not quickly believe that cooler air leads to higher pressures, but we are maxing out the cars p0106 map pressure thresholds.... in cold air... not hot. So we have evidence that the cars produce more boost in cold air than hot.

Meanwhile, simple common sense says, a cooling element/screen/hx is going to add resistance to the air coming through the intake. We know by now a small increase in flow allows the cars to make more mp pressure via better intakes and filters. Inversely, a slight bit of restriction leads to less map pressure after the screws.

Again, i think this is a great product, i just like to keep ideas and understandings straight.

It makes more power because it gets higher quantity of o2 molecules into the chamber. I like it

atljar

There really is no difference in a tire and an engine at least speaking from a physics standpoint. They both have to abide by the same rules.

Volume and molecules aren't the same. You can have a fixed volume of air, with a different amount of molecules in it. How? By temperature change. That's density. Cold air is more dense and more molecules in a given volume.

Do this for me. Take a glass bottle and put a balloon over the top. Put the bottle in an ice bath. What happens? Don't disturb anything and now put the bottle on the stove/super hot water. What now? Would you agree we have the same glass bottle volume and same amount of molecules in each test? Yet our pressure has changed.
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The blower works on moving a volume of air, not molecules. If the ambiant air is colder, then it's going to move more molecules in the same volume per revolution.

During compression of that volume in the blower, the air is heated. Heated air in confined space is higher pressure. The molecules are more spread out. Running with a chiller, volume of air stays the same, and since we haven't changed ambiant incoming air, we have the same amount of molecules, but now the air is chilled and molecules are closer together creating pressure drop.

​​​​​Wait, same amount of molecules, then how do we make more power?? Because timing curves and ability to run more boost of a given fuel octane! Getting off topic, an absolutely Ideal chiller would cool the air pre supercharger making the air denser before compressing, but That's another discussion all together.
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As for the code... No idea on what the parameters are for it to set so won't try to explain fully, But its more than likely a relationship of MAF vs VE vs MAP and not as simple as you are trying to make it. Combine that with what I inferred above. IAT and IAT 2 are totally different from each other in how they behave because the have different constants. IAT2 is always set to a fixed plenum volume(whatever is below the SC) , where IAT has a fixed pressure instead (1 bar)

Finally, agree that intake restrictions will cause boost loss on a blower, and opening up the intake will allow additional pressure to be realized. But again, neither here nor there, because the chiller doesn't change anything on the intake air path
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Mikec7z

you were on the right track here, and then you contradicted yourself.

I agree the air gets hotter through the screws... the point is, colder air, the screws grab more molecules per revolution... those molecules are now in the manifold at the map sensor about to go into the combustion chamber down the runners...

Since you are starting with more air molecules, and the heat from the screws is added, you will have more pressure every time after the screws... thus why we throw p0106 in cold weather before we can throw it in hot weather. We build more manifold pressure after the screws in cold weather. Its a fact i and several others have duplicated many times on these cars.

Our altitude was constant, and it was sea level. Can't go any lower really. South florida never goes much above 30 ft above sea level, thus temp is the only variable that changes here. Its the perfect science experiment location, our altitude changes a max of 30 feet as we drive hundreds of miles. Cold nights, we can all throw p0106... max pressure in the manifold before the car goes into limp mode.

I believe his pressure drop on his cooler is not from the cold air coming to the screws, it is from a slight restriction. But the cold denser air is a positive tradeoff that outweighs the pressure drop.

Easiest way to test this is.... when it gets too cold out and his system is no longer being used to cool the air due to the thermostat/shutdown/bypass that you say the system has.

At that point, lets say its 35 degrees outside, and you have a haltech vs a system where his cooler is installed, i bet the haltech flows more air. I bet a stock intake with a bms flows more air. Cars can be drag raced or put on a dyno that is outside in the cold. it will be proven i believe.

Slight variances in the intake geometry provide better flow or more restriction. His system has slightly more restriction than a stock system. Nothing bad... but since i am a perfectionist about understanding, i'm not prone to letting this pressure drop after the screws being blamed on the "cold" intake air. That is a wrong philosophy (i believe)

atljar

I'm not sure how else to explain it , sorry maybe someone else can help.

But I'll say this again, there is zero change to the intake air path with a chiller.

Colder iat = more boost. Colder iat2 = less boost


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Mikec7z

this is not an absolute statement you have above, and this is where you are confused. If i have more air molecules AFTER the screws, in the manifold area, .... you can make them as cold as you want, if i have triple or more the air molecules in the same volume confined location, i will have always have more pressure, you can keep heating yours, and i can keep multiplying the quantity of mine and i can always win.

The temps prior to the screws dictate how many molecules the screws stuff into the iat2 location that you reference above.

So it is not as simple as you are making it out to be, there are multiple/compound variables at play.

atljar

Yes it is an absolute, you can't change physics/chemistry laws so it really is this simple and no I'm not confused, nor Am I wrong

You have a fixed volume at the iat2 location, which means you have a fixed amount of molecules which was determined by iat1. So you don't get to keep multiplying your molecules because you haven't changed IAT1 nor have you changed volume. Please see my bottle experiment above. When you chill that fixed volume at iat2, pressure will drop every time.

Here's to hoping someone shows the boost log of the same car on the same night with an expansion tank, vs an expansion tank packed with ice.
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Mikec7z

if i cool the air before it gets to the screws, then the air has more molecules per volume.

The screws grab a constant volume, each revolution.

How many molecules are in that volume they grab, is dictated by the temp of the air... and how easily air can flow to the screws.

The colder the air, the more molecules per volume.

Saying the molecule count after the screws is constant, regardless of air temp prior to the screws... is a huge farce.

I'm not going to argue with you, if you want to believe you are right, so be it, but i sure don't think you are.

Ive got about 5 cars hitting p0106 in the cold weather that says im right... and you are wrong... so you can have an argument with "god of the universe" about his laws of physics back here in reality, but for now, im going to step aside.

atljar

Everything you said above is true, and what I've been saying over and over with one BIG exception. I never said what I just quoted from you. What I said again and again is the amount of molecules is dictated by IAT1 or ambiant temperature, which is pre blower temp.
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Mikec7z

right, so you cant just say "higher temps after the screws is ALWAYS more pressure"

If i add a (non cooling) restriction to the intake, pre screws, the screws will get even more hot because less air will cool them, and whatever molecules they do manage to get their claws on, and pump into the iat2 location, will be VERY hot, but that does not mean you have more pressure.

I could completely seal off the intake and add a total restriction, and the screws will get scorching hot as they spin in vacuum... but they will be producing VACUUM... not pressure, aka, not positive boost.

It is a COMPOUND VARIABLE EQUATION/SYSTEM. NOT A TIRE.

If weaponX has a slight bit more restriction, in their intake system due to the chiller, THEN that explains why their system is making LESS map pressure after the screws than a stock "hot" system with a stock intake manifold (less restriction)

And that also explains why my car, and several other cars, DO create MORE map pressure after the screws as it gets colder out, and we eventually hit the max pressure threshold programmed by GM, p0106, at the iat2 map location. (we have less restrictive intakes, no chiller)

Temp ALONE does not dictate after the screw map pressure. There are other variables. Temp is not the absolute dictator of the pressure at the iat2 map location.

Understand yet? Its not a tire big boss. And i'm well aware how tires work. They are about 5 magnitudes simpler than what we are talking about right now.

atljar

I understand that you are adding variables into the equation which don't exist in the original problem (intake changes) . I quit on this one, good luck whomever takes over.

Mikec7z

or, all of this was mentioned in my first post that you tried to counter, and attempted to enlighten me, how tire pressure and temperature correlate.

chuntington101

Mikec7z

I thought it cooled the incoming air through another cooling device... not that it cooled the actual water in the blower cooler than the stock HX already cools it.

Is this not the case?

If so, im an idiot and owe atljar an apology, i thought it was cooling the air before the screws, not after the screws.

Warp Factor

It chills the intercooler coolant, somewhat like the Dodge Demon system does.

Mikec7z

yep, i win the stupid award today, my whole argument was based on the idea that it was cooling the air through an air box pre blower, and the colder air was less taxing on the system concerning heat.

Now, it is as simple as a tire, so atljar was spot on, sorry buddy, i was on the wrong page completely.

So, this unit cooling the fluid down, will prevent p0106, as it brings boost levels down after the bricks. So this unit will allow cars to make more power before they ever reach the p0106 limit, since it does reduce the pressure of the air after the bricks by bringing the airs temp down.

Good job weaponX, sorry to get in the way with irrelevant nonsense.

Mikec7z

with that being said, i once again cannot understand why the chiller system would ever get the liquid TOO cold to where it should shut off. Air after the blower screws is always going to be hot, and the water is going to always circulate through the bricks, so why not make the water as cold as possible? it could get down to freezing and it would still have some antifreeze in it so it would stay liquid.

Sorry, im playing catch up now, i had the system visualized completely differently before, but now that im starting to get it right, this "bypass/shutdown" of the cooling system does not make sense to me yet again.

Warp Factor

Here's how I'm understanding it (and I could be wrong):
Lets say:
The air-condiitioner-powered chiller has gotten the supercharger coolant down to 50 degrees.
Outside air flowing through the supercharger heat exchanger in the nose of the car is 80 degrees.
Then it's better to have the coolant bypass that heat exchanger under such conditions, or the heat exchanger will warm the coolant, rather than cooling it.

I think some of the other confusion about how this system works may be due to the video in post #1, which shows a completely different system. That car is using both a turbo and a supercharger, and looks like it chills the air after it exits the turbo, and before it enters the supercharger. That video threw me off too.

Again, I could be wrong. I'm still trying to digest the logs, and figure out which combination of sensor readings matters, and why, since there seems to no direct correlation between actual air temperature after the bricks, and spark retard. Instead, that temperature is calculated in some way that I still haven't gotten my mind around.

Mikec7z

agreed, i finally figured it out last night and forgot to change this post... my more specific corrected question is in their other thread in the FI section