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Some times it is just having the steering wheel turned the wrong way at the wrong time. Had that happen yesterday (Friday) at VIR. Just didn't let the steering unwind enough when getting on the throttle coming past the apex of a turn and the back end came around. Not a snap oversteer as Randy Pobst talked about but just a stupid rookie mistake that could have happened with any high hp car and that I have chastised students about many times. Last two laps of my PDR video.
Some times it is just having the steering wheel turned the wrong way at the wrong time. Had that happen yesterday (Friday) at VIR. Just didn't let the steering unwind enough when getting on the throttle coming past the apex of a turn and the back end came around.
Bill
Wow, I think you could have had the steering turned all the way to the stops, and still not have been able to save that one.
Wow, I think you could have had the steering turned all the way to the stops, and still not have been able to save that one.
It isn't about turning the steering to save the spin it is about avoiding too much steering input and preventing the spin. I had the wheel turned to far to the left when I started adding throttle. That combination is what caused the back end to come around. The car needed to track out to the right and my steering input was preventing that. If a driver doesn't let the car do what it needs to and holds the steering in like that the car can spin toward the inside of the turn even if a lot of throttle isn't used. When I compare that point with the previous lap I can see I had several more degrees steering input at the same point on the track Vs the previous lap and other laps. Why? I don't know.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C6 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn
It isn't about turning the steering to save the spin it is about avoiding too much steering input and preventing the spin. I had the wheel turned to far to the left when I started adding throttle. That combination is what caused the back end to come around. The car needed to track out to the right and my steering input was preventing that. If a driver doesn't let the car do what it needs to and holds the steering in like that the car can spin toward the inside of the turn even if a lot of throttle isn't used. When I compare that point with the previous lap I can see I had several more degrees steering input at the same point on the track Vs the previous lap and other laps. Why? I don't know.
Bill
Man that just seemed like you lost traction. Almost like something spilled on the track. I did notice marks where cars had been off on that spot before. Was there much damage?
I lost some time from the hit until the OnStar guy came on line. I remember the hit and seeing stars and then the guy talking to me. After I played the video I realized I don't remember the car making the OnStar call and the phone ringing. Have been a little disoriented every once in a while since then. I don't have any pain just that things don't seem right. Plan on seeing the doctor this week. The way I hit my head was thrown back about an inch onto my HANS which was resting against the seat headrest. The seat provided full support for my back so I really haven't had any more issues with my back than I had before.
As for damage to the car it looks like all bolt on parts and painting. The right rear wheel is twisted forward and toed in severely but from what I can tell using a bore scope it looks like the UCA dog bones are bent and the frame is straight. A couple of wiring harnesses will need replacing as they are torn in two. Good thing the Vette is a body on frame car. A unibody car would have needed some major work to straighten it out.
So far from what I can see it looks like the following parts need replacement:
right rear uca, maybe knuckle, wheel hub and lca just to be on the safe side. maybe granatelli toe link.
right rear quarter, rear upper and lower fascia and all of the parts that are part of them, maybe both tail lights.
diff cooler is bent and the duct behind it may need to be replaced as well. trans cooler has some minor damage to some of its fins. A good radiator shop could straighten them in an hour or so but I don't know anybody in the Charlotte area that does that kind of work.
front left fascia is out of line with fender and headlight. looks like it can be loosened and popped back into place.
I lost some time from the hit until the OnStar guy came on line. I remember the hit and seeing stars and then the guy talking to me. After I played the video I realized I don't remember the car making the OnStar call and the phone ringing. Have been a little disoriented every once in a while since then. I don't have any pain just that things don't seem right. Plan on seeing the doctor this week. The way I hit my head was thrown back about an inch onto my HANS which was resting against the seat headrest. The seat provided full support for my back so I really haven't had any more issues with my back than I had before.
As for damage to the car it looks like all bolt on parts and painting. The right rear wheel is twisted forward and toed in severely but from what I can tell using a bore scope it looks like the UCA dog bones are bent and the frame is straight. A couple of wiring harnesses will need replacing as they are torn in two. Good thing the Vette is a body on frame car. A unibody car would have needed some major work to straighten it out.
So far from what I can see it looks like the following parts need replacement:
right rear uca, maybe knuckle, wheel hub and lca just to be on the safe side. maybe granatelli toe link.
right rear quarter, rear upper and lower fascia and all of the parts that are part of them, maybe both tail lights.
diff cooler is bent and the duct behind it may need to be replaced as well. trans cooler has some minor damage to some of its fins. A good radiator shop could straighten them in an hour or so but I don't know anybody in the Charlotte area that does that kind of work.
front left fascia is out of line with fender and headlight. looks like it can be loosened and popped back into place.
There are a lot of parts in that rear fascia.
Bill
glad you're ok!! You must see a doctor to make sure you have no head trauma. My gf is a degree nurse, so i was checked at the track, she was there..... If you need oarts let me know, i bought some assembly and i have lots left! Mine should be out this week😀😀 your wreck was different though. Its a mix of heavy weight shifting combined with steering inputs and throttle applying. Im not saying that i would have done better!! But in my case, its really a diff issue, you can even hear the diff open in video because the car revved up suddenly! Either ways, results are the same. Were you insured for the track day???
glad you're ok!! You must see a doctor to make sure you have no head trauma. My gf is a degree nurse, so i was checked at the track, she was there..... If you need oarts let me know, i bought some assembly and i have lots left! Mine should be out this week😀😀 your wreck was different though. Its a mix of heavy weight shifting combined with steering inputs and throttle applying. Im not saying that i would have done better!! But in my case, its really a diff issue, you can even hear the diff open in video because the car revved up suddenly! Either ways, results are the same. Were you insured for the track day???
tim, agree with you — looking at your video. You let off the gas as you must have felt the car get a little loose quite a while before the car went all wonky on you. Stabilitrac should have not let the car behave that way. As you let off the gas so soon , without stabilitrac even an old fbody 1970’s firebird with 600 + horsepower and a plane Jane Dana rear ended would have straightened itself out with mostly stock steering and suspension components.
Bill, sorry to hear about your situation. Keep us posted.
good luck to both of you getting your cars back on the track fast.
glad you're ok!! You must see a doctor to make sure you have no head trauma. My gf is a degree nurse, so i was checked at the track, she was there..... If you need oarts let me know, i bought some assembly and i have lots left! Mine should be out this week😀😀 your wreck was different though. Its a mix of heavy weight shifting combined with steering inputs and throttle applying. Im not saying that i would have done better!! But in my case, its really a diff issue, you can even hear the diff open in video because the car revved up suddenly! Either ways, results are the same. Were you insured for the track day???
I do have track insurance and an adjuster is supposed to be calling in the next day or so. I was scheduled to instruct in two more events two weeks from now and I was planning to go without a car but the wife is telling me I need to take some time off until next season.
I do have track insurance and an adjuster is supposed to be calling in the next day or so. I was scheduled to instruct in two more events two weeks from now and I was planning to go without a car but the wife is telling me I need to take some time off until next season.
Bill
Probably an excellent suggestion! Glad you were at VIR and not somewhere like Watkins or you’d be looking at a total.
Probably an excellent suggestion! Glad you were at VIR and not somewhere like Watkins or you’d be looking at a total.
Having over 4000 laps at the Glen and close to a 1000 laps at VIR I actually prefer the Glen Vs VIR from a wrecking standpoint. At the Glen there are a fair number of paved run off areas that let you scrub speed. In the areas without large paved run off areas the Armco mostly deflects a car and channels it down the track whereas at VIR in a lot of areas you can leave the pavement and hit a solid obstruction at a more direct angle and since you are sliding across grass (sometimes very wet grass) you don't scrub much speed before hitting them. Just because those obstructions look far away doesn't mean the track is less of a hazard.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 09-30-2018 at 07:52 PM.
I finally used Cosworth Tool Box to compare my path through this turn in my last lap with my personal best lap last year. The picture shows the recent lap in blue and the reference lap in orange. It seems I also slightly early apexed the turn and was probably holding the apex using the steering wheel so I could point the car where I wanted to go. I just had too much throttle input for the steering angle I was putting into the steering wheel.
I wasn't off the previous line by much but it was enough.
Colder weather might also played is part! Seems like you know what you are doing!! On the pdr it didnt look that hard of a wreck, but it could be very misleading!! Im never going back on the track without insurance!!!!
Colder weather might also played is part! Seems like you know what you are doing!! On the pdr it didnt look that hard of a wreck, but it could be very misleading!! Im never going back on the track without insurance!!!!
Not sure what the temperature was when it happened but it was short sleeve weather and it had to be at least 80 degrees.
Having over 4000 laps at the Glen and close to a 1000 laps at VIR I actually prefer the Glen Vs VIR from a wrecking standpoint. At the Glen there are a fair number of paved run off areas that let you scrub speed. In the areas without large paved run off areas the Armco mostly deflects a car and channels it down the track whereas at VIR in a lot of areas you can leave the pavement and hit a solid obstruction at a more direct angle and since you are sliding across grass (sometimes very wet grass) you don't scrub much speed before hitting them. Just because those obstructions look far away doesn't mean the track is less of a hazard.
Bill
Yea but the Armco would have ripped your car up pretty bad
The glen is set up to catch cars and channel them but it’s set for professional drivers who can afford to bounce their car off the guard rails and move on.
For the novice driver these are car thrashers. And a head in to a non giving barrier is ugly.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C6 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
Sorry about hijacking the OPs thread but could your suspension have unloaded a bit. It looked like you were in 4th gear. Does the Z have that much torque?
Yea but the Armco would have ripped your car up pretty bad
The glen is set up to catch cars and channel them but it’s set for professional drivers who can afford to bounce their car off the guard rails and move on.
For the novice driver these are car thrashers. And a head in to a non giving barrier is ugly.
But in most cases it doesn't do that. The car kisses the Armco and gets a blue stripe but isn't severely damaged. If the car spins head on into the Armco like a lot of cars do at the exit of Turn 10 then they usually end up about 4 ft shorter. The Glen was designed for Formula One back in the 70s and the Armco is setup to channel cars down the track. At the Glen most of the dangerous locations have large paved run off areas where an out of control car can scrub a lot of speed before coming close to an obstruction. It also has the NASCAR Safer barriers which reduce the intensity of crash impacts. VIR doesn't have either of those.
Colder weather might also played is part! Seems like you know what you are doing!! On the pdr it didnt look that hard of a wreck, but it could be very misleading!! Im never going back on the track without insurance!!!!
experimenting with my car today with straight line 1st and shift to 2nd gear pulls .
here is what I found. In tour mode traction control off- laying into the car 1st at 20mph and shift fast 2nd gear hold 3/4s way through. 2nd - car gets wiggy and turns / pulls right. I can see if you aren’t paying attention you can 90 degree turn right into something. Or if you are too exhuberent racing someone at the drag strip thinking you can drive through it your in trouble.
Tried the same 1-2 action in sport mode. Car exhibited Same behavior.
tried the same in track mode without going to the sub menu. Car behaves the same as sport and tour.
Tried the same in track mode with traction control off light illuminated and the squiggly line stabilitrac to the left illiluminated in sub menus of dry, wet, sport 1 and sport 2. Not much difference here.
Maybe wet mode within track was a little better then all the others- hard to say.
Within wet of track with traction control off it doesn’t completely fall on its face as with traction control on in all the other modes. But wet mode pulls just enough power so you don’t get in big trouble on the street.
Bottomline with so much torque between 2500 and 4500 rpm and the horsepower hit coming in at 4500 to 5000 rpm you have to pedal it especially wirh the ediff. Then it peters out up higher in the rpm range.
The car would be better with less torque and the ability to have peak hp come in after 5800 rpm on up to 7200 rpm. Easier said then done.
Then it peters out up higher in the rpm range. The car would be better with less torque and the ability to have peak hp come in after 5800 rpm on up to 7200 rpm. Easier said then done.
09-29-2018, 10:21 PM
