A8 is faster than the M7 from 60-130
11-01-2018, 04:31 PM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
A8 is faster than the M7 from 60-130
Verified by VBOX, the A8 is a tenth of a second faster from 60-130 than the M7 Z06.
My belief is that the M7 will pull on the A8 after 130MPH, but the automatic is brutally fast down low.
My belief is that the M7 will pull on the A8 after 130MPH, but the automatic is brutally fast down low.
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landsteam (11-02-2018)
Popular Reply
11-01-2018, 07:24 PM
No big surprise the A8 starts in 3rd and shifts twice, the second shift right before 130 going into 5th. The M7 starts in 2nd and shifts twice, the second shift right before 130 going into 4th. Both cars shift twice with the A8 shifting faster.
40-130 the A8 is at an advantage.
60-160 the M7 is at an advantage.
I would say the edge goes to starting point and speed rather than a blanket statement stating one is better or worse in a roll race.
0-125 A8 > M7
125 and higher M7 > A8
125 is the tipping point. The A8 has 4 gears and the M7 has 3 gears.
After 125 the M7 has shorter gearing going into 4th and 5th.
40-130 the A8 is at an advantage.
60-160 the M7 is at an advantage.
I would say the edge goes to starting point and speed rather than a blanket statement stating one is better or worse in a roll race.
0-125 A8 > M7
125 and higher M7 > A8
125 is the tipping point. The A8 has 4 gears and the M7 has 3 gears.
After 125 the M7 has shorter gearing going into 4th and 5th.
If we examine the Gm published 1/4 mile times and traps we will see the advantage of the A8 is only from 0-60 mph where it gains a 3/10 second advantage and maintains this advantage through the 1/4 mile. This is due to the super low 1st gear of the A8 getting the cars weight moving from a standstill. The 3/10 sec advantage at 60 mph and the 3/10 sec advantage at the 1/4 mile mark tell us that after the initial start neither car is gaining or losing ground to the other.
That means the faster shifting A8 gained nothing from its faster shifts because it has more shifts to make in the 1/4 mile.
This tells us unless the A8 can force the race to begin while its in 1st or 2nd gear it will have no advantage over a well driven M7.
The A8 has advantages in certain areas of the acceleration curve. It also has the advantage of shifting about 200ths of a second quicker.
However the A8 has the disadvantage of having a higher percentage of drive train loss and more shifts to make (shifts take time).
If we look at the gearing below you will find the A8's only clear advantage is from a standstill.
So from a roll in the real world at 50ish mph or above the A8 advantage may not be what many folk think it is.
And above 125 mph the M7 holds the advantage until about 150 mph. Then its A8 and back and forth until max speed.
From a 50 mph take off the A8 would have the theoretical advantage because the M7 can’t go back to first. I say theoretical because it’s hard to quantify the momentum the M7 would gain from a no lift down shift to 2nd vs the A8 automatics down shift to 2nd. Its not a given the A8 will always go to 2nd at 50 mph but I assume it does?
Regardless the A8's advantage is short lived because the A8 shifts to 3rd at 71 mph while the M7 can hold second until 95 mph.
So the A8 pulls the M7 from 50 until it shifts at 71 mph, where it losses time (however long it takes to shift), then it losses hp to the wheels from drive train loss (and possibly some from gearing, A8 in 3rd vs 2nd for the M7). So the M7 should close some if not all of the gap the A8 gained at the start by the time it shifts into 3rd at 95ish mph.
At 95 mph when the M7 shifts to 3rd the advantage may go back to the A8 until 102 mph (due to time for the M7 to shift and gearing). But it may not show because of power train loss and the short 7 mph time span the advantage is applied. At this point the cars are either dead even or the A8 may be slightly ahead.
At 102 mph the A8 losses time from the 3-4 shift. From 102 mph all the way to 126 mph the M7 has at least 1 advantage and possibly 2.
Less drive train loss is certain. And there is possibly a gearing advantage for the M7 being in 3rd vs the A8 being in 4th. If there is any gap at this point the M7 will close it and likely begin to pull in this area.
At 126ish when they both shift, the A8 will close for a split second due to the quicker shift vs the M7. However after the shift is completed the M7 continues the hp advantage it has held (drivetrain loss) since 102 mph all the way to 155 mph when it shifts into an acceleration killing 5th. At which time the A8 will arrest the pull and begin closing the gap until its forced to shift at 170 mph. Its doubtful the A8 will make up all of the gap the M7 has been creating since 102ish mph in the 15 mph time period from 155-170 mph. I suppose it could but some of its gearing advantage from 155-170 is negated by the drive train loss.
So as you can see the A8 advantage may not always be there and in some cases it may be at a disadvantage.
We had this discussion 3 years ago on this very forum.
I suspect it will end the same way now as oit did then with everyone taking the corner of what they own.
Which is fine.
I will say when my car was stock with a stock tune I ran several stock A8s. From a dig or at near zero mph I never won.
From anything above their 40ish mph I always won. Just my results YMMV.
A8 1st 10.99 45 mph
A8 2nd 7.16 71 mph
A8 3rd 5.01 102 mph
A84th 4.07 126 mph
A8 5th 3.06 169 mph
A8 6th 2.41 185 mph
A8 7th 2.04 205 mph
A8 8th 1.57
M7 1st 7.83 66 mph
M7 2nd 5.51 93 mph
M7 3rd 4.14 124 mph
M7 4th 3.42 150 mph
M7 5th 2.77 186 mph
M7 6th 2.29 205 mph
11-01-2018, 04:57 PM
#2
Team Owner
Bring your A8 and roll with my M7. It all depends on the M7 driver.
The M7 will faster everytime on EQUAL HP CARS. The M7 has less hp loss! Plus take off from 60mph is all M7!
A8 has the 0-60 that is it! Thanks for playing!
The M7 will faster everytime on EQUAL HP CARS. The M7 has less hp loss! Plus take off from 60mph is all M7!
A8 has the 0-60 that is it! Thanks for playing!
11-01-2018, 05:07 PM
#3
Lol. Usually the a8 brick wall happens at around 110. Is it 130 now?
60-130 in the m7 could be done in 3rd gear lol. If you're tuned to exceed 6500rpm.
60-130 in the m7 could be done in 3rd gear lol. If you're tuned to exceed 6500rpm.
11-01-2018, 05:23 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Last edited by Mr. Gizmo; 11-01-2018 at 05:33 PM.
11-01-2018, 05:27 PM
#5
Pro
Thread Starter
I think the wall is the top of 4th gear which is something like 125. I remember that we still have to get down with our M7 vs A8 race.
11-01-2018, 05:30 PM
#6
Pro
Thread Starter
It depends on the speed at which you decide to roll. If you start from 60, the A8 will lose for sure, but if you start from 40, there's a good chance the A8 will beat the M7.
11-01-2018, 06:08 PM
#7
Pro
No big surprise the A8 starts in 3rd and shifts twice, the second shift right before 130 going into 5th. The M7 starts in 2nd and shifts twice, the second shift right before 130 going into 4th. Both cars shift twice with the A8 shifting faster.
40-130 the A8 is at an advantage.
60-160 the M7 is at an advantage.
I would say the edge goes to starting point and speed rather than a blanket statement stating one is better or worse in a roll race.
0-125 A8 > M7
125 and higher M7 > A8
125 is the tipping point. The A8 has 4 gears and the M7 has 3 gears.
After 125 the M7 has shorter gearing going into 4th and 5th.
40-130 the A8 is at an advantage.
60-160 the M7 is at an advantage.
I would say the edge goes to starting point and speed rather than a blanket statement stating one is better or worse in a roll race.
0-125 A8 > M7
125 and higher M7 > A8
125 is the tipping point. The A8 has 4 gears and the M7 has 3 gears.
After 125 the M7 has shorter gearing going into 4th and 5th.
Last edited by Chonger; 11-01-2018 at 06:16 PM.
11-01-2018, 06:46 PM
#8
Racer
11-01-2018, 06:59 PM
#9
I remember the top of third in my M7 was 125 with Boostane, so yes, you're right, with a 7000rpm cut off, it's certainly possible to do the whole run with one shift.
I think the wall is the top of 4th gear which is something like 125. I remember that we still have to get down with our M7 vs A8 race.
I think the wall is the top of 4th gear which is something like 125. I remember that we still have to get down with our M7 vs A8 race.
There is no doubt, like you said in the video, the consistency of never missing a shift, will always give the A8 the advantage.
But as you go up in the MPH range, it makes no sense at all, to think the A8 will still be faster, because there's more power loss through the drivetrain.
I mean same car, same weight, same crank hp, but the auto loses more hp to the wheels. We all know the A8 is faster, although not by much, than the M7 in the 1/4.
This car is not about 1/4. There are many facets to driving than 1/4 runs. I honestly don't even care about drag racing or straight line speed. I like corners. If i ever decided to put my car through that, i know i have the proper trans to do so. The downshifts on the A8 is really a buzz kill. 2-3-4 upshifts are the only fast shifts available.
11-01-2018, 07:24 PM
#12
No big surprise the A8 starts in 3rd and shifts twice, the second shift right before 130 going into 5th. The M7 starts in 2nd and shifts twice, the second shift right before 130 going into 4th. Both cars shift twice with the A8 shifting faster.
40-130 the A8 is at an advantage.
60-160 the M7 is at an advantage.
I would say the edge goes to starting point and speed rather than a blanket statement stating one is better or worse in a roll race.
0-125 A8 > M7
125 and higher M7 > A8
125 is the tipping point. The A8 has 4 gears and the M7 has 3 gears.
After 125 the M7 has shorter gearing going into 4th and 5th.
40-130 the A8 is at an advantage.
60-160 the M7 is at an advantage.
I would say the edge goes to starting point and speed rather than a blanket statement stating one is better or worse in a roll race.
0-125 A8 > M7
125 and higher M7 > A8
125 is the tipping point. The A8 has 4 gears and the M7 has 3 gears.
After 125 the M7 has shorter gearing going into 4th and 5th.
If we examine the Gm published 1/4 mile times and traps we will see the advantage of the A8 is only from 0-60 mph where it gains a 3/10 second advantage and maintains this advantage through the 1/4 mile. This is due to the super low 1st gear of the A8 getting the cars weight moving from a standstill. The 3/10 sec advantage at 60 mph and the 3/10 sec advantage at the 1/4 mile mark tell us that after the initial start neither car is gaining or losing ground to the other.
That means the faster shifting A8 gained nothing from its faster shifts because it has more shifts to make in the 1/4 mile.
This tells us unless the A8 can force the race to begin while its in 1st or 2nd gear it will have no advantage over a well driven M7.
The A8 has advantages in certain areas of the acceleration curve. It also has the advantage of shifting about 200ths of a second quicker.
However the A8 has the disadvantage of having a higher percentage of drive train loss and more shifts to make (shifts take time).
If we look at the gearing below you will find the A8's only clear advantage is from a standstill.
So from a roll in the real world at 50ish mph or above the A8 advantage may not be what many folk think it is.
And above 125 mph the M7 holds the advantage until about 150 mph. Then its A8 and back and forth until max speed.
From a 50 mph take off the A8 would have the theoretical advantage because the M7 can’t go back to first. I say theoretical because it’s hard to quantify the momentum the M7 would gain from a no lift down shift to 2nd vs the A8 automatics down shift to 2nd. Its not a given the A8 will always go to 2nd at 50 mph but I assume it does?
Regardless the A8's advantage is short lived because the A8 shifts to 3rd at 71 mph while the M7 can hold second until 95 mph.
So the A8 pulls the M7 from 50 until it shifts at 71 mph, where it losses time (however long it takes to shift), then it losses hp to the wheels from drive train loss (and possibly some from gearing, A8 in 3rd vs 2nd for the M7). So the M7 should close some if not all of the gap the A8 gained at the start by the time it shifts into 3rd at 95ish mph.
At 95 mph when the M7 shifts to 3rd the advantage may go back to the A8 until 102 mph (due to time for the M7 to shift and gearing). But it may not show because of power train loss and the short 7 mph time span the advantage is applied. At this point the cars are either dead even or the A8 may be slightly ahead.
At 102 mph the A8 losses time from the 3-4 shift. From 102 mph all the way to 126 mph the M7 has at least 1 advantage and possibly 2.
Less drive train loss is certain. And there is possibly a gearing advantage for the M7 being in 3rd vs the A8 being in 4th. If there is any gap at this point the M7 will close it and likely begin to pull in this area.
At 126ish when they both shift, the A8 will close for a split second due to the quicker shift vs the M7. However after the shift is completed the M7 continues the hp advantage it has held (drivetrain loss) since 102 mph all the way to 155 mph when it shifts into an acceleration killing 5th. At which time the A8 will arrest the pull and begin closing the gap until its forced to shift at 170 mph. Its doubtful the A8 will make up all of the gap the M7 has been creating since 102ish mph in the 15 mph time period from 155-170 mph. I suppose it could but some of its gearing advantage from 155-170 is negated by the drive train loss.
So as you can see the A8 advantage may not always be there and in some cases it may be at a disadvantage.
We had this discussion 3 years ago on this very forum.
I suspect it will end the same way now as oit did then with everyone taking the corner of what they own.
Which is fine.
I will say when my car was stock with a stock tune I ran several stock A8s. From a dig or at near zero mph I never won.
From anything above their 40ish mph I always won. Just my results YMMV.
A8 1st 10.99 45 mph
A8 2nd 7.16 71 mph
A8 3rd 5.01 102 mph
A84th 4.07 126 mph
A8 5th 3.06 169 mph
A8 6th 2.41 185 mph
A8 7th 2.04 205 mph
A8 8th 1.57
M7 1st 7.83 66 mph
M7 2nd 5.51 93 mph
M7 3rd 4.14 124 mph
M7 4th 3.42 150 mph
M7 5th 2.77 186 mph
M7 6th 2.29 205 mph
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11-01-2018, 08:10 PM
#13
Boom, finally a scientific explanation. I like it!!
Makes sense
Makes sense
11-01-2018, 08:25 PM
#14
Team Owner
I agree with you. But That 40-130 might be a toss up though.
If we examine the Gm published 1/4 mile times and traps we will see the advantage of the A8 is only from 0-60 mph where it gains a 3/10 second advantage and maintains this advantage through the 1/4 mile. This is due to the super low 1st gear of the A8 getting the cars weight moving from a standstill. The 3/10 sec advantage at 60 mph and the 3/10 sec advantage at the 1/4 mile mark tell us that after the initial start neither car is gaining or losing ground to the other.
That means the faster shifting A8 gained nothing from its faster shifts because it has more shifts to make in the 1/4 mile.
This tells us unless the A8 can force the race to begin while its in 1st or 2nd gear it will have no advantage over a well driven M7.
The A8 has advantages in certain areas of the acceleration curve. It also has the advantage of shifting about 200ths of a second quicker.
However the A8 has the disadvantage of having a higher percentage of drive train loss and more shifts to make (shifts take time).
If we look at the gearing below you will find the A8's only clear advantage is from a standstill.
So from a roll in the real world at 50ish mph or above the A8 advantage may not be what many folk think it is.
And above 125 mph the M7 holds the advantage until about 150 mph. Then its A8 and back and forth until max speed.
From a 50 mph take off the A8 would have the theoretical advantage because the M7 can’t go back to first. I say theoretical because it’s hard to quantify the momentum the M7 would gain from a no lift down shift to 2nd vs the A8 automatics down shift to 2nd. Its not a given the A8 will always go to 2nd at 50 mph but I assume it does?
Regardless the A8's advantage is short lived because the A8 shifts to 3rd at 71 mph while the M7 can hold second until 95 mph.
So the A8 pulls the M7 from 50 until it shifts at 71 mph, where it losses time (however long it takes to shift), then it losses hp to the wheels from drive train loss (and possibly some from gearing, A8 in 3rd vs 2nd for the M7). So the M7 should close some if not all of the gap the A8 gained at the start by the time it shifts into 3rd at 95ish mph.
At 95 mph when the M7 shifts to 3rd the advantage may go back to the A8 until 102 mph (due to time for the M7 to shift and gearing). But it may not show because of power train loss and the short 7 mph time span the advantage is applied. At this point the cars are either dead even or the A8 may be slightly ahead.
At 102 mph the A8 losses time from the 3-4 shift. From 102 mph all the way to 126 mph the M7 has at least 1 advantage and possibly 2.
Less drive train loss is certain. And there is possibly a gearing advantage for the M7 being in 3rd vs the A8 being in 4th. If there is any gap at this point the M7 will close it and likely begin to pull in this area.
At 126ish when they both shift, the A8 will close for a split second due to the quicker shift vs the M7. However after the shift is completed the M7 continues the hp advantage it has held (drivetrain loss) since 102 mph all the way to 155 mph when it shifts into an acceleration killing 5th. At which time the A8 will arrest the pull and begin closing the gap until its forced to shift at 170 mph. Its doubtful the A8 will make up all of the gap the M7 has been creating since 102ish mph in the 15 mph time period from 155-170 mph. I suppose it could but some of its gearing advantage from 155-170 is negated by the drive train loss.
So as you can see the A8 advantage may not always be there and in some cases it may be at a disadvantage.
We had this discussion 3 years ago on this very forum.
I suspect it will end the same way now as oit did then with everyone taking the corner of what they own.
Which is fine.
I will say when my car was stock with a stock tune I ran several stock A8s. From a dig or at near zero mph I never won.
From anything above their 40ish mph I always won. Just my results YMMV.
A8 1st 10.99 45 mph
A8 2nd 7.16 71 mph
A8 3rd 5.01 102 mph
A84th 4.07 126 mph
A8 5th 3.06 169 mph
A8 6th 2.41 185 mph
A8 7th 2.04 205 mph
A8 8th 1.57
M7 1st 7.83 66 mph
M7 2nd 5.51 93 mph
M7 3rd 4.14 124 mph
M7 4th 3.42 150 mph
M7 5th 2.77 186 mph
M7 6th 2.29 205 mph
If we examine the Gm published 1/4 mile times and traps we will see the advantage of the A8 is only from 0-60 mph where it gains a 3/10 second advantage and maintains this advantage through the 1/4 mile. This is due to the super low 1st gear of the A8 getting the cars weight moving from a standstill. The 3/10 sec advantage at 60 mph and the 3/10 sec advantage at the 1/4 mile mark tell us that after the initial start neither car is gaining or losing ground to the other.
That means the faster shifting A8 gained nothing from its faster shifts because it has more shifts to make in the 1/4 mile.
This tells us unless the A8 can force the race to begin while its in 1st or 2nd gear it will have no advantage over a well driven M7.
The A8 has advantages in certain areas of the acceleration curve. It also has the advantage of shifting about 200ths of a second quicker.
However the A8 has the disadvantage of having a higher percentage of drive train loss and more shifts to make (shifts take time).
If we look at the gearing below you will find the A8's only clear advantage is from a standstill.
So from a roll in the real world at 50ish mph or above the A8 advantage may not be what many folk think it is.
And above 125 mph the M7 holds the advantage until about 150 mph. Then its A8 and back and forth until max speed.
From a 50 mph take off the A8 would have the theoretical advantage because the M7 can’t go back to first. I say theoretical because it’s hard to quantify the momentum the M7 would gain from a no lift down shift to 2nd vs the A8 automatics down shift to 2nd. Its not a given the A8 will always go to 2nd at 50 mph but I assume it does?
Regardless the A8's advantage is short lived because the A8 shifts to 3rd at 71 mph while the M7 can hold second until 95 mph.
So the A8 pulls the M7 from 50 until it shifts at 71 mph, where it losses time (however long it takes to shift), then it losses hp to the wheels from drive train loss (and possibly some from gearing, A8 in 3rd vs 2nd for the M7). So the M7 should close some if not all of the gap the A8 gained at the start by the time it shifts into 3rd at 95ish mph.
At 95 mph when the M7 shifts to 3rd the advantage may go back to the A8 until 102 mph (due to time for the M7 to shift and gearing). But it may not show because of power train loss and the short 7 mph time span the advantage is applied. At this point the cars are either dead even or the A8 may be slightly ahead.
At 102 mph the A8 losses time from the 3-4 shift. From 102 mph all the way to 126 mph the M7 has at least 1 advantage and possibly 2.
Less drive train loss is certain. And there is possibly a gearing advantage for the M7 being in 3rd vs the A8 being in 4th. If there is any gap at this point the M7 will close it and likely begin to pull in this area.
At 126ish when they both shift, the A8 will close for a split second due to the quicker shift vs the M7. However after the shift is completed the M7 continues the hp advantage it has held (drivetrain loss) since 102 mph all the way to 155 mph when it shifts into an acceleration killing 5th. At which time the A8 will arrest the pull and begin closing the gap until its forced to shift at 170 mph. Its doubtful the A8 will make up all of the gap the M7 has been creating since 102ish mph in the 15 mph time period from 155-170 mph. I suppose it could but some of its gearing advantage from 155-170 is negated by the drive train loss.
So as you can see the A8 advantage may not always be there and in some cases it may be at a disadvantage.
We had this discussion 3 years ago on this very forum.
I suspect it will end the same way now as oit did then with everyone taking the corner of what they own.
Which is fine.
I will say when my car was stock with a stock tune I ran several stock A8s. From a dig or at near zero mph I never won.
From anything above their 40ish mph I always won. Just my results YMMV.
A8 1st 10.99 45 mph
A8 2nd 7.16 71 mph
A8 3rd 5.01 102 mph
A84th 4.07 126 mph
A8 5th 3.06 169 mph
A8 6th 2.41 185 mph
A8 7th 2.04 205 mph
A8 8th 1.57
M7 1st 7.83 66 mph
M7 2nd 5.51 93 mph
M7 3rd 4.14 124 mph
M7 4th 3.42 150 mph
M7 5th 2.77 186 mph
M7 6th 2.29 205 mph
than the M7!
11-01-2018, 09:04 PM
#16
The Z06 is traction limited in 1st gear with the M7, and the A8 is geared even lower. My guess is most of the A8 gain is at the initial launch which may manage to get a smoother and stronger "jerk" versus the manual clutch on the M7. The A8 is consuming power, but since the Z06 is traction limited till 2nd gear on the M7, the power loss isn't an issue until you get around 60 to 70 mph. After that, the difference in gear ratios could have an effect, but I'm not sure it will make up for the A8's power losses.
11-01-2018, 11:11 PM
#18
Team Owner
Watched the video and he never races an M7 that was weak all A8 hype. Plus all his shifts were like 6100-6200.
But the stock car is dead at that point. Nothing like my car!
But the stock car is dead at that point. Nothing like my car!
11-01-2018, 11:42 PM
#20
Pro
Thread Starter
There are three runs (actually a few more off camera) but the last one is shifting at 6400-6500 each time and that was the hero run at 7.84 sec. The rest of the A8 runs were 7.9-8.0 seconds. On the M7, the hero run was 7.95 with no lift shifts but averaged around 8.2 seconds otherwise. I'll clarify this when it comes time to shoot the A8 vs. M7 episode.
Last edited by xkilo16x; 11-01-2018 at 11:56 PM.