Stock cats
11-11-2018, 10:33 PM
#101
Team Owner
Yep... I'm going to respectfully bow out as well. When the proven principles of physics and thermodynamics are ignored, all we're left with is arguments and while I respect everyone's quest for knowledge; I'll will let you guys figure it out for yourselves as it's only keeping me further ahead lol.
I will leave you with this though...
Why would GM put AR Headers on the COPO?
https://americanracingheaders.com/bl...censed-product
How many pro drag racers do you see running stock manifolds?
I will leave you with this though...
Why would GM put AR Headers on the COPO?
https://americanracingheaders.com/bl...censed-product
How many pro drag racers do you see running stock manifolds?
WE GOTTA call BS!
Here is the inside the collector see how the hot gases exit unrestricted with smooth curves getting there and the spike. Coated inside and out!
Look inside the cast manifold that has make the sharp corner almost a 90 degree not good for air flow nothing like the unrestricted air path headers enjoy
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; 11-11-2018 at 10:49 PM.
11-11-2018, 10:42 PM
#102
Team Owner
each
Haha! Those custom cast manifolds have the cats fastened closely to meet emissions. Plus the cast manifold is about 3 bucks to mass produce where custom headers are not mass produced and are 2,600. coated and are hand made you get what you pay for.
instead of 3 dollars now we see the cat pipe burning for the poor DOWNPIPE which is a turbo term and not used to talk about the manifold to cat pipe or mid pipe.
Such poor understanding is too funny My Z runs cooler than stock with headers engine and oil temps losing the stock exhaust keep the guesses going!
"Gm has pending lawsuits for overheating on the z06, and cant turn in a time at nuremburg due to too much heat... They then invented the zr1... and even though heat is the enemy, GM decided NOT to use the super cooling long tube headers with cats that we civilians know all about already, and instead, they used the super hot lame single downpipe with 40% the total surface area of a LT header instead. Gm likes being sued for overheating and wants the zr1 to fail, and/or 1000 dollar LT headers with super exclusive LT coatings were out of their budget on the 145g car for sure!"
... apparent intellectual high logic thoughts of the ones who know we are WRONG! about downpipes radiating less heat than a LT header.
... apparent intellectual high logic thoughts of the ones who know we are WRONG! about downpipes radiating less heat than a LT header.
instead of 3 dollars now we see the cat pipe burning for the poor DOWNPIPE which is a turbo term and not used to talk about the manifold to cat pipe or mid pipe.
Such poor understanding is too funny My Z runs cooler than stock with headers engine and oil temps losing the stock exhaust keep the guesses going!
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; 11-11-2018 at 10:54 PM.
11-11-2018, 10:58 PM
#103
Mass produced long tube headers are 2600 dollars at cost? Cast are 3 dollars?
lol, I think a lot of LT header companies must be running in the red then... not to mention GM can't get them cheaper than we can when mass produced for 2017+ z06 and zr1 to solve a heating issue
and even if they were 2600 at cost, you think GM would not put them on z06 and zr1 to avoid being sued and to be able to turn better times? You think customers would not happily pay an extra 2597 dollars if their cars did not overheat and made more power?
lol, do you actually think before you speak?
night buddy. You're not worth it. Bravo on keeping cool in oregon with a larger blower... I don't know how you managed.
Thank you for all your catless downpipe testing.
thank you for all the useful data and logic... on the zr1 test with Ben and Sean's cars, I think we should fly you in to be the official driver and temperature taker.
lol, I think a lot of LT header companies must be running in the red then... not to mention GM can't get them cheaper than we can when mass produced for 2017+ z06 and zr1 to solve a heating issue
and even if they were 2600 at cost, you think GM would not put them on z06 and zr1 to avoid being sued and to be able to turn better times? You think customers would not happily pay an extra 2597 dollars if their cars did not overheat and made more power?
lol, do you actually think before you speak?
night buddy. You're not worth it. Bravo on keeping cool in oregon with a larger blower... I don't know how you managed.
Thank you for all your catless downpipe testing.
thank you for all the useful data and logic... on the zr1 test with Ben and Sean's cars, I think we should fly you in to be the official driver and temperature taker.
Last edited by RoxyCarter; 11-11-2018 at 11:10 PM.
The following users liked this post:
HessViper (11-12-2018)
11-11-2018, 11:07 PM
#104
Team Owner
To be fair to 3z...
I am not trying to imply that the stock cast header section material radiates less heat than coated stainless.
however, I don't think he is being fair in recognizing that the majority of the distance is covered by the downpipe.
My point was always focussed on the Downpipe vs the LT headers. The downpipe section will prevent heat transfer to the engine bay and oil cooler.
the top section of the stock header/manifold, that heat in that area is sucked out of the hood and has little to no effect on the oil cooler or the actual engine block.
I assumed he would understand this, but it seems he is trying to get people to focus on the stock exhaust manifold primaries, which are very short and over with quickly.
another thing no one has brought up yet is that there is cast stainless steel, guys. Manifolds can be, and are made out of this by some manufacturers.
while z06 and zr1 probably are not, this may bridge the gap between those who claim they are and those that claim they are not stainless. Perhaps they are stainless cast
I only point this out, as I found the argument between it being cast OR stainless... very... interesting. It can be both
also keep in mind, stock manifolds can be wrapped or heat treatment coated.
never have we said heat treatment does not work, we simply pointed out it can be applied to any of the discussed options to reduce transmitted heat to the engine bay. Thus heat treatment or wraps are a constant that can be removed from the discussion...
bringing us to material and surface area as the 2 remaining variables.
since both the LT headers and the stainless downpipes are stainless... material is also a constant.
the only difference becomes surface area. This variable is tremendously higher percentage on the LT headers.
they radiate more heat.
The other remaining variable is proximity to oil cooler and engine block. Norcals are farther away.
how people are not understanding this and keep bragging about heat treatment as if it can only be applied to LT headers... is beyond me.
I literally feel bad, i feel like there may be genuine learning disabilities present here, and I don't want to be too harsh on anyone.
but assuming everyone can keep up and everyone is smart... then the only other option I can see is some parties may be trying to deceive others to make a buck instead...
it's amazing what people actually think they will successfully trick others into believing makes sense.
bottom line...
norcals win.
how a major shop can't fathom this, is beyond us... especially after we explained it... multiple times.
this discussion should have been over 2 days ago.
the learning curve here is not a great one... and its sad that Hess and I and a couple others, are having to break it all down so that supposed experts can keep up.
I am not trying to imply that the stock cast header section material radiates less heat than coated stainless.
however, I don't think he is being fair in recognizing that the majority of the distance is covered by the downpipe.
My point was always focussed on the Downpipe vs the LT headers. The downpipe section will prevent heat transfer to the engine bay and oil cooler.
the top section of the stock header/manifold, that heat in that area is sucked out of the hood and has little to no effect on the oil cooler or the actual engine block.
I assumed he would understand this, but it seems he is trying to get people to focus on the stock exhaust manifold primaries, which are very short and over with quickly.
another thing no one has brought up yet is that there is cast stainless steel, guys. Manifolds can be, and are made out of this by some manufacturers.
while z06 and zr1 probably are not, this may bridge the gap between those who claim they are and those that claim they are not stainless. Perhaps they are stainless cast
I only point this out, as I found the argument between it being cast OR stainless... very... interesting. It can be both
also keep in mind, stock manifolds can be wrapped or heat treatment coated.
never have we said heat treatment does not work, we simply pointed out it can be applied to any of the discussed options to reduce transmitted heat to the engine bay. Thus heat treatment or wraps are a constant that can be removed from the discussion...
bringing us to material and surface area as the 2 remaining variables.
since both the LT headers and the stainless downpipes are stainless... material is also a constant.
the only difference becomes surface area. This variable is tremendously higher percentage on the LT headers.
they radiate more heat.
The other remaining variable is proximity to oil cooler and engine block. Norcals are farther away.
how people are not understanding this and keep bragging about heat treatment as if it can only be applied to LT headers... is beyond me.
I literally feel bad, i feel like there may be genuine learning disabilities present here, and I don't want to be too harsh on anyone.
but assuming everyone can keep up and everyone is smart... then the only other option I can see is some parties may be trying to deceive others to make a buck instead...
it's amazing what people actually think they will successfully trick others into believing makes sense.
bottom line...
norcals win.
how a major shop can't fathom this, is beyond us... especially after we explained it... multiple times.
this discussion should have been over 2 days ago.
the learning curve here is not a great one... and its sad that Hess and I and a couple others, are having to break it all down so that supposed experts can keep up.
11-11-2018, 11:12 PM
#105
When we do the short and sweet versions, you miss the boat apparently.
so we have to list everything out so you can fathom that what you are arguing makes zero sense.
novels would not be needed if you weren't always in the way countering everything, and moderators understood you have zero clue sometimes.
so we have to list everything out so you can fathom that what you are arguing makes zero sense.
novels would not be needed if you weren't always in the way countering everything, and moderators understood you have zero clue sometimes.
The following users liked this post:
HessViper (11-12-2018)
11-11-2018, 11:14 PM
#106
Team Owner
Mass produced long tube headers are 2600 dollars at cost? Cast are 3 dollars?
lol, I think a lot of LT header companies must be running in the red then... not to mention GM can't get them cheaper than we can when mass produced for 2017+ z06 and zr1 to solve a heating issue
and even if they were 2600 at cost, you think GM would not put them on z06 and zr1 to avoid being sued and to be able to turn better times? You think customers would not happily pay an extra 2597 dollars if their cars did not overheat and made more power?
lol, do you actually think before you speak?
night buddy. You're not worth it. Bravo on keeping cool in oregon with a larger blower... I don't know how you managed.
Thank you for all your catless downpipe testing.
thank you for all the useful data and logic... on the zr1 test with Ben and Sean's cars, I think we should fly you in to be the official driver and temperature taker.
lol, I think a lot of LT header companies must be running in the red then... not to mention GM can't get them cheaper than we can when mass produced for 2017+ z06 and zr1 to solve a heating issue
and even if they were 2600 at cost, you think GM would not put them on z06 and zr1 to avoid being sued and to be able to turn better times? You think customers would not happily pay an extra 2597 dollars if their cars did not overheat and made more power?
lol, do you actually think before you speak?
night buddy. You're not worth it. Bravo on keeping cool in oregon with a larger blower... I don't know how you managed.
Thank you for all your catless downpipe testing.
thank you for all the useful data and logic... on the zr1 test with Ben and Sean's cars, I think we should fly you in to be the official driver and temperature taker.
Night continue along with if you cannot dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with them with BS plan!
Good Night MIkeroxycarter
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; 11-11-2018 at 11:20 PM.
11-11-2018, 11:18 PM
#107
A cat at the end of a LT header and a cat in the shortened x pipe... would accomplish exactly what it does now.
they would pass emissions fine.
and they would pick up 40whp like your catted LT headers did!!!!
lol
you ... are.... so important here
they would pass emissions fine.
and they would pick up 40whp like your catted LT headers did!!!!
lol
you ... are.... so important here
Last edited by RoxyCarter; 11-11-2018 at 11:19 PM.
The following users liked this post:
HessViper (11-12-2018)
11-11-2018, 11:40 PM
#108
Team Owner
Here is the "WE' GANG! Sitting and waiting for the GM 2019 Corvettes (lemon replacement) cars GM PROMISED !
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; 11-12-2018 at 12:16 AM.
11-11-2018, 11:57 PM
#109
Burning Brakes
I recently took my 17 Z06 to Corde's Performance Racing for some mild updates.
The following parts were added.
NorCal delete pipes, 15% overdriven ATI pulley/damper, Corde's HE, and the Corde's ice tank.
Mine is an A8 car. Baseline dyno numbers were 529/585. It already had the Borla X pipe, Mamo T/B, and BMS drop in filter
Numbers are SAE with the car warmed up and running 91 oct. pump gas.
After Nic finished the tuning, the numbers are 567/657.
The car runs a touch cooler, gets right at 1 MPG better highway mileage and is WAY louder with the valves open. Seems to be less heat coming from the tunnel area too.
I have no dog in this pissing match, but would like to pass on what my personal experience has been.
At a minimum I would opt for the cat delete head pipes/ X pipe on an otherwise stock engine.
That stock HE that Chevrolet installs on the Corvette looks more like a trans. cooler.
Pretty wimpy looking.
Yep, the warranty is out the window now.
Peace!
The following parts were added.
NorCal delete pipes, 15% overdriven ATI pulley/damper, Corde's HE, and the Corde's ice tank.
Mine is an A8 car. Baseline dyno numbers were 529/585. It already had the Borla X pipe, Mamo T/B, and BMS drop in filter
Numbers are SAE with the car warmed up and running 91 oct. pump gas.
After Nic finished the tuning, the numbers are 567/657.
The car runs a touch cooler, gets right at 1 MPG better highway mileage and is WAY louder with the valves open. Seems to be less heat coming from the tunnel area too.
I have no dog in this pissing match, but would like to pass on what my personal experience has been.
At a minimum I would opt for the cat delete head pipes/ X pipe on an otherwise stock engine.
That stock HE that Chevrolet installs on the Corvette looks more like a trans. cooler.
Pretty wimpy looking.
Yep, the warranty is out the window now.
Peace!
Last edited by Mike Jesse; 11-12-2018 at 12:51 AM.
The following users liked this post:
HessViper (11-12-2018)
11-12-2018, 12:05 AM
#110
Team Owner
I recently took my 17 Z06 to Corde's Performance Racing for some mild updates.
The following parts were added.
NorCal delete pipes, 15% overdriven ATI pulley/damper, Corde's HE, and the Corde's ice tank.
Mine is an A8 car. Baseline dyno number was 529/585. It already had the Borla X pipe, Mama T/B, and BMS drop in filter
Numbers are SAE with the car warmed up and running 91 oct. pump gas.
After Nic finish tuning the numbers are 567/657.
The car runs a touch cooler, gets right at 1 MPG better highway mileage and is WAY louder with the valves open.
I have no dog in this pissing match, but would like to pass on what my personal experience has been.
At a minimum I would opt for the cat delete head pipes/ X pipe on an otherwise stock engine.
Yep, the warranty is out the window now.
Peace!
The following parts were added.
NorCal delete pipes, 15% overdriven ATI pulley/damper, Corde's HE, and the Corde's ice tank.
Mine is an A8 car. Baseline dyno number was 529/585. It already had the Borla X pipe, Mama T/B, and BMS drop in filter
Numbers are SAE with the car warmed up and running 91 oct. pump gas.
After Nic finish tuning the numbers are 567/657.
The car runs a touch cooler, gets right at 1 MPG better highway mileage and is WAY louder with the valves open.
I have no dog in this pissing match, but would like to pass on what my personal experience has been.
At a minimum I would opt for the cat delete head pipes/ X pipe on an otherwise stock engine.
Yep, the warranty is out the window now.
Peace!
that's a good result makes a nice difference.
11-12-2018, 12:12 AM
#111
Team Owner
When we do the short and sweet versions, you miss the boat apparently.
so we have to list everything out so you can fathom that what you are arguing makes zero sense.
novels would not be needed if you weren't always in the way countering everything, and moderators understood you have zero clue sometimes.
so we have to list everything out so you can fathom that what you are arguing makes zero sense.
novels would not be needed if you weren't always in the way countering everything, and moderators understood you have zero clue sometimes.
11-12-2018, 12:28 AM
#112
Burning Brakes
That's correct. The gain that I was really interested in was the torque gain. Pretty substantial IMHO.
I will also add that Joe and his staff are a class act.
I will also add that Joe and his staff are a class act.
11-12-2018, 01:04 AM
#113
Team Owner
11-12-2018, 01:49 AM
#114
Safety Car
C7/Z06 Exhaust Manifold Material
Go right to post #28 in the link below for the answer. Post number 23 (Price) & 26 (weight) are interesting too. To get the full scope of the exhaust manifold discussion read 22 through 30 in the thread. 
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...haust+manifold
PS: "Who's Your Daddy".
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...haust+manifold
PS: "Who's Your Daddy".
Last edited by C7/Z06 Man; 11-12-2018 at 02:26 AM.
11-12-2018, 02:05 AM
#115
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2005
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan
Posts: 7,075
Received 1,816 Likes
on
1,084 Posts
Hello, that is not the cast manifold. It is the part that the cat delete pipe replaces, and the delete pipe eliminates that sharp bend.
Last edited by Warp Factor; 11-12-2018 at 02:09 AM.
11-12-2018, 02:31 AM
#116
Safety Car
See post #67 here to see what the C7 exhaust manifold looks like. 
Last edited by C7/Z06 Man; 11-12-2018 at 02:48 AM.
11-12-2018, 07:39 AM
#118
I wanted to see if he had the humility and nobility to admit the z06 cast manifolds were cast stainless.
that's why I planted the seed in my long post above, where i explained stainless can be cast also, and I played possum some more to see what he would do with that nugget he was apparently oblivious to prior.
he of course did not double check this or apologize to you for writing WRONG! over and over.
he just stuck to his picked side. When I realize I'm wrong, I apologize quickly and get the convo back to usefulness, and he's there to rub it in.
this forum would be very productive and advancing if certain people would change the way They talk to others when they just KNOW they are right and they just know the others are WRONG! and also when they ABSOLUTELY know what they are talking about...
again, I could be wrong. Hess could be wrong. Others on our team could be wrong....
thus, I think it would be great if we did weapon x zr1 on a track, driven by poorsha
real data, real comparison... heck, maybe there is something to learn none of us thought of.
that's why I planted the seed in my long post above, where i explained stainless can be cast also, and I played possum some more to see what he would do with that nugget he was apparently oblivious to prior.
he of course did not double check this or apologize to you for writing WRONG! over and over.
he just stuck to his picked side. When I realize I'm wrong, I apologize quickly and get the convo back to usefulness, and he's there to rub it in.
this forum would be very productive and advancing if certain people would change the way They talk to others when they just KNOW they are right and they just know the others are WRONG! and also when they ABSOLUTELY know what they are talking about...
again, I could be wrong. Hess could be wrong. Others on our team could be wrong....
thus, I think it would be great if we did weapon x zr1 on a track, driven by poorsha
real data, real comparison... heck, maybe there is something to learn none of us thought of.
Last edited by RoxyCarter; 11-12-2018 at 07:40 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Ben@WeaponX (11-13-2018)
11-12-2018, 07:55 AM
#119
Team Owner
Go right to post #28 in the link below for the answer. Post number 23 (Price) & 26 (weight) are interesting too. To get the full scope of the exhaust manifold discussion read 22 through 30 in the thread.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...haust+manifold
PS: "Who's Your Daddy".
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...haust+manifold
PS: "Who's Your Daddy".
THE whole system is STILL junk the manifold is NOT regular stainless it is still a plie of junk manifold that moves little flow compared to the headers. Too funny people like you are still so naïve and gullible . To believe that statement of course GM says it is something good It still is junk! NO matter It still gets thrown out in favor of real STAINLESS 304 not some junk material. The headers still save 35 pounds and still add 40 rwhp!
You are still clueless!
STILL is NOT any thing pure you could call STAINLESS STEEL but a casting of metal alloy's NO MATTER WHAT CRAP YOU POST here it is
in the picture! STILL CAST METAL not pure stainless at all with a little alloy so GM can BOAST about a pile of junk You can keep fooling yourself but not me!
Don't believe what you read when you have the stuff in hand the junk manifold in the picture is a rough casting of crap metal they pay as cheap as they can for it!
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; 11-12-2018 at 09:25 AM.
11-12-2018, 08:08 AM
#120
Let the record show that 3z and Ben still believe LT headers are cooler in temps to avoid cot and overheating for the z class vettes 7th generation, vs catless norcals and stock manifolds with equivalent heat coatings... and won't throw a zr1 into angry mode or limp mode or potato mode... whatever lingo is used in their circles
I'm done here
I'm done here
Last edited by RoxyCarter; 11-12-2018 at 08:12 AM.