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Our team does wish you well Ben, we aren't against you
hopefully you can empathise, you were being used as leverage that we are wrong. We gave you grief about your "ABSOLUTELY" word choice, but at the end of the day... We are all trying to make these cars better, and theres no doubt that over the years, you have.
good luck on your zr1, I know you and Crawford are each other's top competitors, and obviously Mike is tight with Chris, but it does not mean we feel the need to sling mud.
if we feel disrespect, and think we might be right on a topic, we will stand our ground.
but ultimately, we are trying to figure out truth, and that comes from many perspectives. Hopefully you will redoconsider ours, and give GM the benefit of the doubt that they could have used tube headers... and as we and other pointed out, they did not, but they do on other high HP cars, like the camaro. Engine bay open air cavity size does matter.
keep giving zr1 a good name, and good work.
Last edited by RoxyCarter; 11-13-2018 at 07:38 PM.
Our team does wish you well Ben, we aren't against you
hopefully you can empathise, you were being used as leverage that we are wrong. We gave you grief about your "ABSOLUTELY" word choice, but at the end of the day... We are all trying to make these cars better, and theres no doubt that over the years, you have.
good luck on your zr1, I know you and Crawford are each other's top competitors, and obviously Mike is tight with Chris, but it does not mean we feel the need to sling mud.
if we feel disrespect, and think we might be right on a topic, we will stand our ground.
but ultimately, we are trying to figure out truth, and that comes from many perspectives. Hopefully you will redoconsider ours, and give GM the benefit of the doubt that they could have used tube headers... and as we and other pointed out, they did not, but they do on other high HP cars, like the camaro. Engine bay open air cavity size does matter.
keep giving zr1 a good name, and good work.
Debates are just that and as long as people don't make it personal, it's fun... just like any game! We're good man, I'm sarcastic by nature, so don't take my banter as cynical ... same with HessViper, seems like mutual respect as well from his other posts on P0106 thread. As for the rest, not sure how in touch you are, but some of Crawford's Cronies have made it a point to try to cowardly defame me via PM to would be consumers lol and I hear about it from those consumers who still did business with me anyway. Ironically, a couple of those clowns even purchased my products previously and shared my IP, which is now trying to be offered. If I really cared, I'd have laid it out already on here, but my focus is forward and quite frankly, when I have consumers pointing it out to me, it's obviously transparent to the world.
As for the great debate here... I'm still out lol but for the record, NorCal is a great dude and makes a great product and I've known him for years! If I didn't want headers, that would be my first go to, esp over the Taiwanese junk imported by other companies; however, LTHs vs CDPs, my position won't change I've tested this on a variety of platforms, and know where they're needed, but to each their own. It's part of the fun! FYI the ZR1 engine bay barely has a 0.00 barometric loss up to 145 MPH, which shows me that there is no loss of air evacuation in the engine bay, and thus all of the air/heat escapes at speeds.
As for info shared, I put a lot out there because I enjoy this, but I have a lot more under my hat than I share WRT product development. For example, I solved the highly problematically debated P0106 problem for my ZR1 intake in a day's study and all I had to log were SAE PIDs.
heres a little food for thought...…….. the newer zl1 camaros have the same motors as the zo6 {lt4} I think we all can agree on that LOL. well gm thought it was wise to install factory stainless tube headers. albeit not as good as a full length aftermarket header its still a tube header. I have been under and seen stock and full length headers on a few zl1s. there is definitely more room in the camaros vs zo6. I wonder why the gm engineers decided to put those big heat producing cast manifolds on the zo6 when they clearly had a option to use stainless tube like the zl1???? I bet the r/d on the zo6 started out with tube exh manifolds, that would make sense as they are lighter and we know the were trying to keep this car as lite as possible?? I am guessing during r/d they were producing too much heat and ended up with the cast manifold to capture more heat into the exhaust system.
Can't meet emissions with headers. CUSTOM LONGTUBE Headers are far costlier to make. The manifold is cheap and easy to make and works for emissions because they need the cat close to eninge. Sure wasn't because it was the best choice!
Headers make the car pick up power. The manifolds really suck been pulling them off for 40 years. Everytime headers make more power. . Plus they COST GM 20 times what the cheap cast manifold cost them Plus GM cannot use them for the design will not work .
You guys sound really funny touting stock manifolds as a power adder. Must be why no one has any power and running around on stock tunes.
FYI the ZR1 engine bay barely has a 0.00 barometric loss up to 145 MPH, which shows me that there is no loss of air evacuation in the engine bay, and thus all of the air/heat escapes at speeds.
no one on our direct team of hess, roxy or myself, are against you, nor have we gotten into the previous dramas that you are speaking of. It does not affect us, and all businesses have tough times along the way, overall, I can tell you are doing a pretty good job. We steer clear of it all.
The quote you have above, i would not anticipate there is a pressure loss in the engine bay, i would anticipate it is pressurized. And i'm sure that would change based on where the baro meter is placed. The po106 solution you speak of, is via a tune correct?
Feel free to PM me, as this is derailing the stock cat topic.
Can't meet emissions with headers. CUSTOM LONGTUBE Headers are far costlier to make. The manifold is cheap and easy to make .....
Really? What do these manifolds and downpipes (the parts that headers replace) cost GM?
(Their retail price is higher than the retail price of American Racing Headers.)
Choose your answer carefully. My wife happens to be employed by one of the OEM parts suppliers.
Last edited by Warp Factor; 11-14-2018 at 06:52 AM.
i dont believe price is the deciding factor on the headers vs manifolds, i think it is, as roxy and hess mentioned..
Heat as number 1... and
i think the second one is "reliability" as a LT header can crack a primary, or blow one out, at the pressures and heat these cars are creating exhaust, or also just cracking one from bumps etc while driving,
3rd would be "ease of repair" to be able to get the downpipe down and off the car, and the x pipe off... if they were LT headers instead, that would be a challenge if a mechanic had to take those off every time they were in his way.
i dont believe price is the deciding factor on the headers vs manifolds, i think it is, as roxy and hess mentioned..
Heat as number 1... and
i think the second one is "reliability" as a LT header can crack a primary, or blow one out, at the pressures and heat these cars are creating exhaust, or also just cracking one from bumps etc while driving,
3rd would be "ease of repair" to be able to get the downpipe down and off the car, and the x pipe off... if they were LT headers instead, that would be a challenge if a mechanic had to take those off every time they were in his way.
The heat of the coated Header is less vs the cast manifolds tied to hot front cat which is much hotter under hood,I changed them out on both my Z06's.
The z06 gains 40 rwhp drops 35 pounds in weight and enjoys cooler temps underhood as well. I see cooler oil and engine temps and it cools back down quicker after running it hard. The rest with out header knowledge or experience or never had coated headers on the their car should stop spewing about the heat! It just is not the truth!
All facts! GM can not use them for the design. NOR the cost!
The back pressure holds the hot exhaust gases in and heat in with the stock manifold. The mass of metal retains the heat as well.
Where the smooth following bends with the long open tubes take the hot gas out and away from the engine much quicker. The thin tubes hold little heat the coating keeps the gases hotter they flow faster hot.
ahhh a new day with this lol, 3zo6 I never said lt headers don't make power. I am not sure who said stock manifolds are a power adder. I only started posting here because the op of this thread wanted to know if his car could make 650-700rwhp with the tvs2300 without long tube headers. simple answer is absolutely YES! if he wants facts my build thread {with all mods listed} has dyno sheet +video with baseline pull and final pull. from a VERY reputable shop!! I never said lt headers would not make more power over stock manifolds but the facts remain that norcal delete with x pipe {coated} on stock manifolds are not far behind lt headers on a 700rwhp build! now its time for me to move on from this
cheers Charlie,,,
The heat of the coated Header is less vs the cast manifolds tied to hot front cat which is much hotter under hood,I changed them out on both my Z06's.
You do realize that the cat delete pipe eliminates those hot cats, don't you?
Originally Posted by 3 Z06ZR1
All facts! GM can not use them for the design. NOR the cost!
Nope. Poorly-informed conjecture.
Originally Posted by 3 Z06ZR1
The back pressure holds the hot exhaust gases in and heat in with the stock manifold.
Nope. All the gases that come out of the exhaust port exit the back of the car. They don't stay in the exhaust manifold somehow.
Sure, the cast manifolds will stay hot longer after the engine is shut off, because they have more thermal mass. But for the same reason, it will also take longer for them to heat up, so that's a wash. But these things are totally unrelated to how much heat they radiate when the engine is running, once it has warmed up. The simple fact is that the cast manifolds will transfer less heat from the exhaust gases to the engine compartment than tubular headers, partly because the greater wall thickness impedes heat transfer, and partly because the cast manifolds have much less hot surface area. There's really no point in your continuing to deny this.
Last edited by Warp Factor; 11-14-2018 at 12:41 PM.
You do realize that the cat delete pipe eliminates those hot cats, don't you?
Nope. Poorly-informed conjecture.
Nope. All the gases that come out of the exhaust port exit the back of the car. They don't stay in the exhaust manifold somehow.
Sure, the cast manifolds will stay hot longer after the engine is shut off, because they have more thermal mass. But for the same reason, it will also take longer for them to heat up, so that's a wash. But these things are totally unrelated to how much heat they radiate when the engine is running, once it has warmed up. The simple fact is that the cast manifolds will transfer less heat from the exhaust gases to the engine compartment than tubular headers, partly because the greater wall thickness impedes heat transfer, and partly because the cast manifolds have much less hot surface area. There's really no point in your continuing to deny this.
What is the effect of back pressure? Less air flow so less power. It causes heat too look at the burnt pipe?????You just keep showing you really have no idea! The header tubes transfer heat away by releasing the hot gases quicker which also draws air in.
NO way the that little manifold passes heat and exhaust near as well as the primary header. Quit sounding foolish you make laugh too hard.
What about the huge 1700 degree cats GM has fastened to these manifolds as close as possible. All part of that MANIFOLD is it not? You saw how the heat destroyed the pipe???
All that heat is UNDERHOOD. My UNDER hood is cooler there with the coated SS tubes which cool in minutes to the touch.
You talk to hear your lips rattle! I pay 0 attention to your comments!
..and while we are at it, in the same question, ask him if the o2 sensors dictate COT, so long as they are responding, and then the internal algorithms with engine temps and WOT kick in, only IF o2 sensors are not responding properly at startup.
What is the effect of back pressure? Less air flow so less power. It causes heat too look at the burnt pipe?????
You just keep showing you really have no idea! The header tubes transfer heat away by releasing the hot gases quicker which also draws air in.
Apparently you failed to notice that the heat-failed pipe is not part of the cast manifold. Instead, it is that formed steel tubing (like header tubes) which you claim is so good at passing heat on through.
Originally Posted by 3 Z06ZR1
NO way the that little manifold passes heat and exhaust near as well as the primary header. Quit sounding foolish you make laugh too hard.
Of course you are laughing. Nobody claimed that the manifold passes exhaust better than headers. You just made that up. However, it will pass heat along to the rear of the car better.
Originally Posted by 3 Z06ZR1
What about the huge 1700 degree cats GM has fastened to these manifolds as close as possible. All part of that MANIFOLD is it not?
Nope. It even has a separate part number. But again, that part is replaced by the cat delete pipe, so your whole point is irrelevant.
Originally Posted by 3 Z06ZR1
All that heat is UNDERHOOD. My UNDER hood is cooler there with the coated SS tubes.
Cooler than the stock manifolds, with their stock heat shields, with the cat delete pipe? Sure it is.
Last edited by Warp Factor; 11-14-2018 at 02:28 PM.
1) The way "I" remember things is that when installers started adding headers to the stock C7/Z06 around 2015/16 they lost HP, in fact a number of them had to do a 'tune' just to get the HP back to near stock and if they were lucky they actually gained a 'few' over stock. This shows that GM got it right for the stock setup with 'cats'.
2) A good coating like 'Jet Hot' etc. from my experience and best if you can get both the outside & the inside coated does reduce heat 'no matter what it is applied to'. That is why I mentioned it in an earlier post for the aftermarket downpipe and the exhaust manifolds if you want, thinking about warranty. Headers "REALLY" need the coating to keep things under control, but not so much for the downpipe for a couple of reasons:
2a) If you just knocked the converter out of the factory downpipe then the 'converter' would not be heating things up as much and of course the flow would also increase.
2b) Physics; as has been mention here the surface area of the downpipe is less than headers so both being 'coated' a lot less heat under the hood for the downpipe and also the placement of the aftermarket downpipe away from other items is a good thing too.
3c) There are other advantages to installing the aftermarket downpipe (ease of installation/removal, etc.) as has been mentioned. YOU MAKE YOUR CALL!!! I would chose the downpipe being this is a FI setup & both systems I believe get down to a 3" dia. or less.
Last edited by C7/Z06 Man; 11-14-2018 at 03:11 PM.
Oem cat inlet and cat cells... you can see why I opted to make my main cat delete for these cars.
main restriction on a c7z and zr1 in oem exhaust are the main cats and main cat inlet piping. It links down to 2.25 at narrowest point and just horrible flow
I believe a great product for norcal to introduce would be an X pipe with the sound dampening resonators the entire length of the X pipe on both sides
This would allow a lot of track guys to have the best of both worlds, and still run a catless downpipe.
Maybe even sell a resonator kit where people have to have their local muffler shop chop up the stock X pipe, keep its cats, but add more sound dampening.
now back to this idea
Norcal, how restrictive do you find the x pipe cats to be? I believe they are not as bad as the downpipe cats, which is why i believe the downpipes are the ones to swap and keep the x pipe.
Do you know of any sound dampening devices that could be attached/spliced into the stock X pipe? Which do you think would be best? What are your thoughts about keeping the x pipe cats? I want to be as quiet as possible
Norcal, how restrictive do you find the x pipe cats to be? I believe they are not as bad as the downpipe cats, which is why i believe the downpipes are the ones to swap and keep the x pipe.
Do you know of any sound dampening devices that could be attached/spliced into the stock X pipe? Which do you think would be best? What are your thoughts about keeping the x pipe cats? I want to be as quiet as possible
attached pic of oem x pipe cats....they flow wayyyyy better than main cats. Much bigger passages
I have many customers that just do main cat deletes and keep oem x pipe.
i just want to take a second, and sincerely thank the majority of you in this thread right now... i have been on this forum for a while, and normally, everything I believe to be true is argued with up and down by "experts", and no one agrees with anything I say since I don't own a shop and/or the person believes they are telepathic enough to know how much money I have spent with forum vendors this year, or in my life, and since sometimes my ideas are not common place on this forum yet, they are always "wrong"
This thread has been like heaven the last couple days. Its good to see I'm not actually crazy, and my ideas and understanding of physics are somewhat accurate. This place has given me brain damage in the past.
do you know of anyone running a tune where COT was shut off, and their x pipe cat melted?
I think i can melt it, but i wanted to see what normal people have had happen. I will be watching Poorsha's results with the stock X pipe as i feel we are in a similar realm, but his car will still have COT active.
A non COT car and X pipe cat failure, is what I'm really after. If poorsha's melts it with COT active, then we know it will melt with COT off.
11-13-2018, 07:31 PM
... same with HessViper, seems like mutual respect as well from his other posts on P0106 thread. As for the rest, not sure how in touch you are, but some of Crawford's Cronies have made it a point to try to cowardly defame me via PM to would be consumers lol and I hear about it from those consumers who still did business with me anyway. Ironically, a couple of those clowns even purchased my products previously and shared my IP, which is now trying to be offered. If I really cared, I'd have laid it out already on here, but my focus is forward and quite frankly, when I have consumers pointing it out to me, it's obviously transparent to the world.
