salcolkat

My Car is a 17 ZO6 M7 with Callaway 757 I was accelerating hard in 6th gear at about 4800 RPMs Air temp was 32 degrees. At 158 MPH the car went into limp mode and threw code 228 low fuel pressure. I have gone faster than this before but in much warmer weather without any issues. I am wondering if it could have anything to do with the cold temp?

Higgs Boson

gm has a flash update for that

Mr. Gizmo

Mikec7z

its because it was cold the night you were running it hard. PM me for details, I can do it on command to cars.

The reflash higgs mentions is for p0106. Not p228c. Nor would you want that flash, as it would kill your 757 flash, and put your car back to a stock z06 tune... which would never work.

p228c is that the low side fuel pump cant keep up with the high side pump. no flash can fix this. It means your pump is running out of capacity to keep up.

Chevy did not fix this until 2019 by putting a larger pump in the z06, as the people who are capable of causing the car to hit this code, are so few and far between, myself and another guy, literally taught GM we can do this to cars on command. They argued, then they realized we were right. No public announcement yet tho... it would require all cars to have their fuel pumps replaced... not something GM wants to do, so they handle people capable of hitting the code on a case by case basis. The larger fuel pump is not compatible with the old setups and software either it seems, so it is a bigger job than most understand.

Again, The tune wont solve the problem, the fuel pump is inadequate in the drivers tank when proper environmental situations exist. The fact that you have a bigger blower, aggravates the situation even further. How long have you owned the vehicle? Did you buy it brand new?

You are only at 217 ft of elevation in your town in NY, that is also part of the equation, along with the cold weather.

I'm frankly mind blown that more people on this forum cant get their cars to hit this code.

ps, you also probably had p0089 throw as well, but it is not the limp mode code, only p228c puts you into limp. P0089 just turns on your CEL.

HNK

Warp Factor

Mike, does cat overtemp protection have anything to do with the extra fuel demand? Or is it all related to the extra air density at that elevation, temperature and speed? Or is it a combination of both?

Mr. Gizmo

Mikec7z

Edit, i totally misread what you asked me, i thought you said intake instead of intank... sorry buddy...

one can go to a fore double pump hanger, but then you would need a tune i would assume. Never know tho, since the car makes ultimate fueling decisions with the high side pump, perhaps a fore double pump hanger would work with a stock tune still? I'm not sure.

I am sure it is just another straw that breaks the camels back, as COT is almost always on at these speeds at WOT. Obviously the cold and low altitude are the other parts of the equation. People have no idea how much fuel the system calls for on a stock tune z06 in the cold and in low altitude, the amount of o2 the MAF sees coming in, has to be paired with fuel, and on most cars I've seen, the low side just can't keep up. Each car is different tho... but anything that allows for more air flow, is going to get one closer and closer to hitting this code.

The irony, if i remember correctly, Higgs hit this code on a cold night in texas a couple years ago, before he tuned his car. This forum helped Irun and myself realize it was the cold and low elevation... not because anyone here knew, LET ALONE AGREE'D WITH HE OR ME .... but because every person who would complain they got the code, it shows their location as well as the date and time....

I can use the interweb to look up the weather history in their city on those dates they would complain back in 2015, 16 and 17, and also look up their elevation... and it was ALWAYS cold and low altitude....

Then we realized GM can do nothing to solve it, outside of swapping every in-tank pump in every car (HUGE HUGE JOB because lowering the tank is a total bitch, and huge liability as mechanics WILL make mistakes 20% of the time, and we are messing with FUEL folks) so i realized, this will result in class action lawsuit LONG BEFORE GM ever agrees to cough up that kind of money or agree to doing the job.

So instead, myself and another guy decided to do the community a favor and keep our mouths shut to avoid the class action from killing the value of our cars... and we ONLY talked about p0106, and kept the 2 fuel pressure codes out of our rants... because we knew GM would never admit fault or flaw. And instead he and I literally just help people on a case by case basis LEMON their cars since GM wants to play stupid and pretend its all a mystery to them.

The best is all the people on this forum who think their cars have been "fixed" after a dealership swapped a sensor or a pump on their car, and they don't realize, they have not gone 160mph in the cold since. Their car is the same 9 times out of 10.

What is even better is when those people interrupt my threads in all CAPS and scream "GM HAS A FIX FOR THIS, THEY FIXED MY CAR, THEY WILL FIX YOURS TOO!!!!!!"

repeat that over and over in the most hideous voice you can think of... and you will feel my pain being here with "said people" as i can't perceive at this moment in time the people saying that have a mature calm voice.

Welcome to my nightmare.

Hmm... first they started replacing every component of my fuel system.

Then once they replaced every component and I could still do it, I THINK they might have disabled my p228c code from throwing at all... but my car still runs lean now and does not shut off, which puts me in a worse situation then i was originally, but it also makes my car extremely fast, because in situations when it WANTS and CALLS for running rich, the low side fuel pump can't meet the demand, so it ends up running normal AFR or even slightly lean, which is scary... but since im still under warranty, i'm like, okay, if my engine blows, its their problem.

So while every z06 runs rich at higher speeds at WOT, or goes into limp mode as fuel pressure starts to drop when it has too much incoming air, mine CAN'T run rich when too much air is coming in and also can't go into limp mode anymore, since they disabled the limp mode all together, so now my car is literally about as fast as a zr1... and it still has "the factory warranty and tune"

But it seems they forgot to disable my p0089 code from being able to throw, which still throws the CEL, and that code is still on all the previous repair orders as well as 2 other codes, so i have over 5 failures of p0089 documented with GM service centers, and now im going to lemon my car.... due to the fact that they took so long to admit i was right, and never officially admitted i taught them something, but when they finally stopped arguing i was wrong, was just months before the 19s were released, and the 19s got the bigger in tank pump.

Before the 19s were announced, and the zr1 components were still in secret, i BEGGED GM to give me a zr1 in tank pump, and everyone pretended like i was stupid and it had the same in tank pump as the z06... and i explained there is no way it does, it has to have a bigger pump if it keeps up with its power levels, or the car is going to be a total failure... they told me i had no idea what i was talking about.

... and now here we are.

GM had chances to give me the 19 pump, but did not do so...

So now they win the grand prize of buying my car back and giving me a brand new one, and if they don't give me a 2019, ill just do this again, until i get a 19.

So every stupid choice they make, hurts them, not me.

My car has been in the shop a total of over 45 days for this BS, and 5 separate occasions. And people think i'm the bad guy when i spent an extra 30 grand on a car than a base c7, and my car has a lower top speed and goes into limp mode, so i would have been better off buying a base c7. Not to mention its unsafe, especially now that they tweaked my tune and my car runs lean as a result. Literally, if i swapped the pulley, instead of my car going into limp mode... it would blow the engine from running too lean.... since they disabled the limp mode to try to avoid me having a "lemon case", since the law says you have to have the same failure over and over, and they disabled the "failure" from being able to be displayed. But they forgot to disable the other codes. Super brilliant they are.

As far as the case by case stuff goes... SOME people, may genuinely have a solvable weakness to their vehicle that is causing this situation to happen in warmer weather or while at higher altitude... so GM can solve their problem with a proper running in tank pump for instance if their current one is going bad, etc.

I don't know how this ends, all that I know is, GM had every chance in the world to fix my car, and by the second failure, i understood the problem, better than they did, and they kept wasting their time replacing parts that don't matter. So, If they want to be stupid, not my problem, law says I and 3 other people get new cars now. Maybe the bean counters at GM will learn how many beans they lose when the law makes them buy us all new cars, and they realize a 2019 in tank pump was less beans.

And I know they are reading this and my message to them is "count again geniuses, you have a whole forum of people who can lemon their cars"

But i think they are smart to be honest... they know lemon law in most states is only a year, so they are out of the woods with most 17s and 18s and people are buying 19s now. Problem for them is... there are still some new 17s and 18s on dealer lots... so those being sold, and ones already recently sold, can still all be lemon'd.

But how many people actually go 150 in their vettes? So GM is banking on peoples inability being in their favor.

So we will see how their strategy pans out. It just drives me crazy that i can find a repeatable weakness to ALL their cars, and they are so arrogant that they sit there and argue and tell me I'm wrong, and so does an entire forum of "experts" and "tuners" when its simple physics.

You can't tune a 1gpm pump to pump just because you know how to tune computers and you told the computer to tell the pump to pump 1.5 gpm (not actual accurate flow values, but proving a simple point)... sorry about reality folks, this is only the 100th time i've explained it i think

Mr. Gizmo

Mikec7z

remember when Irun4cops deleted all his posts and refused to explain it because he said it would lead to class action lawsuit, and mocked everyone on this forum who insisted they could solve the problem and there would not need to be a class action if Irun would only SHARE his ideas and understanding?

And then he instead deleted all his posts that explain the solution, and wrote "such a puzzle" over and over 100 times in 2 different threads about this?

And then the forum moderators banned his account because he fired back at people telling him he was an idiot and has no idea what he was talking about?

His lemon case is already being set for hearing

The moderators banned one of the smartest people on this forum.... who took the time to protect this community from a class action that would only hurt US, not hurt GM.... just like the overheating class action did.

Its frustrating when the police in an environment don't understand who their biggest good guys are.

And the best is when the vendors and their followers show up to threads, and insist, that "you arent a vendor, this vendor knows more than you ever will, just tune your car and void your warranty, youll never win a lemon case, i think your lemon case is a lie, you dont care about the community, tell us all the secrets so a class action starts, we will be the judges if it is real or not"

well, today those people got their wish. Full disclosure now that those that we care about already have their lemon's pending, and even IF GM came out with a solution tomorrow, it does not matter, GM does not have the lawful right to attempt to repair our cars again, they have already had too many swings as it is. Its brand new car time...

and maybe "class action and depreciated vehicle value time" for all the experts who would not PM or give a call to the people who offered to speak behind the scenes about the problem and what the future holds.

All those experts... might be losing a lot of money soon Especially people who own 2 or 3z06

considering the members of this forum who believe and insist a "reflash solves the problem" it has become apparent to me that said people do not actually drive fast enough in cold enough weather for the problem to ever occur. In their realities, a flawed car is adequate.

speaking to salcolkat behind the scenes, he can still lemon his car, its within the time. So don't think im being mean or ruining his thread, ill be the only one on this forum who actually helps the guy with his problem. Think about that for a while.

ZR1Bob

Out of curiosity, and perhaps a fair amount of ignorance, would an auxiliary fuel pump like the one recently discussed in posts here (link below) help with this problem? --Bob

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...or-the-c7.html

Mr. Gizmo

I doubt no one knows the answer, without a handful of people going out and trying, I guess the problem is most easily solved by driving under 150mph in cold weather where the denser cold air won't cause a lean condition.

GM has most likely engineered these cars to run pig rich to protect the engines and lots of warranty claims . Thats why the exhaust tips have lots of soot like an oil burning furnance , and the OP gets the code 228 putting the hammer down in cold dense air with the bigger calloway optioned supercharger.

I think The OP should take this up With Calloway along with the data C7Z has collected.

Mikec7z

it would prevent it, but it also voids your warranty as it requires a tune i believe.

you could always throw an extra fuel pump in the mix on a stock tune car and see if it runs okay? If yes, then just move on down the road and no drama.

The only reason it MAY work without a tune is because the high side pump is still the ultimate dictator in how much fuel goes into the engine, so it MAY actually work to add an inline pump which is external of the fuel tank, and adds push/pressure/flow to the stock low side pumps capabilities alone.

But my guess is you will end up needing a tune, and again, at that point, you had to forfeit your warranty to fix a problem GM should have fixed.

If you wanted a pump that would not throw codes and could keep stock warranty, talk to crawford racing about inline pump setups that boost the stock pump's line.

The one you linked taps the tank, which you don't want to do for a stock tune vehicle.

jlbjr

Mikec7z

understand, the car runs rich deliberately for at least the following 2 reasons....

COT
and power limitation at x amount of airflow.

COT is self explanatory, or just search the forum to have it explained.

Power limitation is a strategy GM had to do since it is a pulley/belt driven blower which the computer can't control or stop on the 1.7 blower (they can however on the new 2650). GM had to have a way to PREVENT someone from throwing a more aggressive pulley setup on the 1.7, and the car can't just be allowed to run lean... as then a person would take the pulley back off and go in for warranty work, (or maybe they were just running no air filter) but there are many ways a person can cause the car to make more and more power via more and more air flow. GM has to have a way to limit the power of the car, otherwise, its a warranty nightmare for them if everyone is making 800HP on the stock tune.

So instead of having the stock tune allow the car to run lean, the car always matches the incoming air with fuel, to stay safe, so they aren't blowing up motors (gm would go bankrupt (again) quickly if not)

So, if they run proper afr, up to 800hp worth of air coming in... eventually the transmission and other parts get extra stresses and wear.

So GM finally realized a clever idea.. as the car sees more air... past certain preset thresholds, they can make the car run rich to bring the power back down.

So the interesting thing is, if your car is seeing 700hp worth of air, it might be calling for 750hp worth of fuel, to make it run rich, and limit the power.
If it sees 800hp worth of air, it will request 900hp worth of fuel to keep the car very rich and keep it at stock power levels.

Problem is the pump cant pump 900hp worth of fuel.

So then they can let the car run lean... or they can just have the low fuel pressure code put the car into limp mode.

So the low pressure fuel p228c and p0089 code and the p0106 max map pressure code... all limit a person from running too much air into the cars... as the stock tune is designed to domino through choices that eventually cause these codes to throw when too much air is sensed by the MAF and the MAP.

This is how GM limits the cars without having the supercharger controlled by the computer, since the supercharger is driven by a belt and we can change that pulley and belt.

The car is not always running rich... again...

only at COT
and only at Power Limitation at X amount of air flow.... and the tables for this power prevention are complex, but i have simplified the idea for simple discussion.

and then there's other reasons like engine knock detection, overheating, etc... which cause it to pull timing and/or run rich. But the above 2 can happen when the engine temp is fine and no detonation is occurring.

Mikec7z

read my above post. If a MAF and MAP are sensing x amount of air coming in, IF the ecu does not tell the fuel system to match it with fuel, then the engine runs lean and explodes.

It does not matter what a tuner WANTS the car to do, physics wins. Run lean, blow up.

Only way to not run lean is to pump extra fuel to meet the needs of the extra incoming o2.

When it is cold, more o2 comes in.

No, the fuel pump can't keep up on stock tune vehicles with no bolt on's whatsoever, in the proper climates and altituds. GM's test drivers did not test the car at sea level at 160mph in the cold. Or they did, and hoped none of us would. Only 2 options on the table. Either way... i call that a fail.

Yes, GM failed with flying colors

Warp Factor

There are issues with using a stronger fuel pump. We'd run into one of them when using more powerful pumps in our supercharged C5's. The pump is cooled by the fuel, and the fuel can eventually get so hot that the pump no longer performs properly. Everything would be just fine when the fuel in the tank was cool, but after a couple of hours of driving, you'd get on it, and the fuel pressure would drop like a rock!

With the new larger pump on the Z06 and ZR1, I think GM gets around this by not putting full power to the pump all the time. Only when the computer says it's needed.

Mr. Gizmo

Interesting, while off topic -- On my C4Zr1- when the secondary pump for the high rpm injectors was starting to go bad, the car actually felt stronger up high but was throwing a too lean code. Then the pump went out all together.

Mikec7z

GM made a big boy decision to honor factory warranty on callaway cars. Bumper to bumper warranty is known as "express warranty" within lemon law lingo.

Any vehicle sold in the USA HAS TO HAVE AT LEAST a 1 year, 12,000 mile bumper to bumper aka express warranty... it is the law.

Lemon law applies to this warranty.

GM made a big boy decision to pair up with callaway, and say they would honor bumper to bumper warranty on callaway cars, and they sell them new on chevy showrooms.

Lemon law applies to his car, and GM is the one responsible to solve the issue, not callaway.

If GM did not want to be responsible for callaway car lemon law claims, they should not have agreed to PARTNER with them and WARRANTY their cars.

It is very simple.

Mikec7z

That is how my z06 currently is since they tried to trick me and disable the p228c limp mode... i run 55 fuel line pressure up the tunnel when it is cold out and the in tank pump cant maintain 71psi... and as a result, instead of running rich, my car is lean and runs strong as death fast.

The other day when Roxy said my car is as fast as their zr1, they were not exaggerating.

People on this forum have not yet put 2 and 2 together why a c6z pulls well up top and a c7z does not. Its because the c7z is making choices to limit power and run rich usually. Mine no longer does (as much) it seems.