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C7 Z06 vs C6 Z06 - My definitive position

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Old 01-02-2019, 08:12 AM
  #21  
DevilDog II
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I've never owned a C6Z and I don't track my C7Z, but I do know that it's the best performance car I've owned in my 70 years. I also know is that it makes me smile from ear-to-ear when I drive it, and that's all that matters to me.
Old 01-02-2019, 09:25 AM
  #22  
tonypittman
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Originally Posted by Dellrose
Okie dokie...I’m sub’ed to your YouTube channel. Looks like you are going to create some great Corvette content. The Corvette Forum video is dead on the money. This place is a great resource if viewed within the correct lens. Hey, what’s up with the T-shirt on the passenger seat? Does it add horsepower?

haha. That’s one of the Corvette Seat Armour covers on the seat. Adds about 5hp, with a tune.
Old 01-02-2019, 09:39 AM
  #23  
Mr. Gizmo
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Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn
I believe they are both Sports Cars. I had a 2008 JSB Z06 3LZ which had the ebony and linen leather interior. Fabulous looking car. The white seats, door panels and dash really made it look different than other cars. I tracked the car for 7 seasons and made several long trips in it from UpState NY to South Carolina one time and UpState NY to Key West another time. Excellent road car, excellent track car. Seats were upgraded to the late C6 versions from just heated seats to full sport seats by adding lumbar and bolster supports and passenger side power seat track from a 2010 GS. Car rode great and drove great.

I drove the car 160 miles through a pouring rain to the dealership to trade it in for my 15 3LZ M7 Z06/Z07. Interior was about the same from a leather standpoint but it had the black interior so didn't have that nice contrast the C6Z had. Ride was a little stiffer but the car ran through the pouring with no issues even though ambient temps dropped to the low 40s. I haven't done any long trips in the car, I imagine it won't be an issue for me.

I have tracked this car for 3 seasons and find it is a much better track car than the C6Z which overall I found to be better than the C5Z I ran for 6 seasons. It handles bumps in turns much better than the C6Z did. There are turns where I couldn't put pedal down with the C6Z until the rear wheels came off a series of bumps. With the C7Z I don't have to hold a maintenance throttle until the rear wheels come off the bumps I can just start adding power like I did with my previous C5 Z. Thus the C7 Z comes off those corners harder than the C6 or C5 Z. Faster than the C6Z because I couldn't use the LS7's torque and faster than the C5Z because it didn't have the gonads the C7 Z has.

One of the biggest differences between the two cars is GM finally resolving the voice of the Customer. Seats in the C1, C2, C3 cars were basically seats. Not very comfortable and not very good for holding a person in place during hard cornering. The early C4s had great seats but large butt Customers complained and GM evolved the seats toward the seats we had in the C5 and C6 that contained large butts but didn't provide lateral support. I had to add race seats to both my C5 and C6 to get the full cornering capability out of those cars. I don't need to do that with the C7 Comp Seats, they hold me in the seat very well when going around corners.

Another big difference between the C6 and C7 is the eDiff which enhances the capability of the C7. I had the joy of learning the CMP track by following a 14 Z51 A6 around CMP in my C6Z the first time I went there. That car could come off corners much harder than my C6Z. Some of that was the automatic but most was probably due to PTM and the eDiff and how it distributed power to the rear wheels. I could catch him further down the straight but even when I was on his bumper through the apex of the turn he could just scoot away from that point on until I could go wide open with the LS7. When it gets right down to it a stock C6Z going up against a stock C7 Z51 has its hands full.

Then we get to brakes. The C6Z (other than the 2011 or newer Z07 version that had CCM brakes) had lousy brakes. They just weren't track capable. Every C7 comes with vastly superior brakes compared to the C6Z or any of the C5s.

I also really appreciate the PDR in the C7. It is an amazing piece of electronics and cost less than a comparable aftermarket solution. Sure Harry's Lap Timer, a cell phone and an OBD dongle may provide some of the data seen on the screen but it can't match the other data which isn't on the screen. To do that you need better equipment and by the time you put it altogether you have a couple $K tied up in it.

In the final analysis my C7Z is letting me lap tracks like VIR an average of 5 or 6 seconds faster and when I get a really good lap in I am close to 8 seconds faster than I ran in the C6Z. The other thing the C7Z does is get attention. Although my JSB Ebony/Black C6Z was commented all the time about being the best looking Corvette in the group it didn't get the mouth watering attention my Black on Black C7 Z with full aero gets. I never had fast food restaurant employees drop what they were doing behind the counter to go out and take pictures of the car like happens all the time with the C7. If you want to be anonymous a C6 is a better car for that than a C7.

Bill
Bill, were you running the same tires on your c6z as your c7z?

i may be incorrect on this , but I recall you mentioned in one of my threads that I complain about the c7z’s acceleration on the big end you could achieve higher speeds on the longer straights with the c6z. Perhaps this is due to the aero or a shortcoming in the Lt4 it self (small supercharger)

Other then high end acceleration do you see any other deficit of the c7z. Perhaps something in its design that might have contributed to the on track incident?
Old 01-02-2019, 10:16 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Gizmo


Bill, were you running the same tires on your c6z as your c7z?

i may be incorrect on this , but I recall you mentioned in one of my threads that I complain about the c7z’s acceleration on the big end you could achieve higher speeds on the longer straights with the c6z. Perhaps this is due to the aero or a shortcoming in the Lt4 it self (small supercharger)

Other then high end acceleration do you see any other deficit of the c7z. Perhaps something in its design that might have contributed to the on track incident?

Come on @Bill Dearborn . You HAD to know Gizmo wasn't going to let you get away with saying the C7 is better! Gotta cover your bases man! To your comment about attention: that is spot on. I get the exact same thing in mine and I've never seen anyone give a 2nd look to a C6 at cars and coffee

Last edited by Toddiesel; 01-02-2019 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:33 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Toddiesel
Come on @Bill Dearborn . You HAD to know Gizmo wasn't going to let you get away with saying the C7 is better! Gotta cover your bases man! To your comment about attention: that is spot on. I get the exact same thing in mine and I've never seen anyone give a 2nd look to a C6 at cars and coffee
That is the elephant in the room - in all Bill's track time in the C6z I don't think he had an on track incident in the c6z of the magnitude of the C7z.

Old 01-02-2019, 11:40 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Gizmo
That is the elephant in the room - in all Bill's track time in the C6z I don't think he had an on track incident in the c6z of the magnitude of the C7z.
Guess I missed where he said he had an incident. Not seeing that in this thread. Also, I've never had an accident in any of my Mustangs, but I had one in my C7. Does that mean Corvettes are more prone to accidents than the Mustang?? Not sure the details of the "incident" you're referring to, but seems far too anecdotal to apply universally. But I know you gotta grab any thread you can to knock down the C7, so I'll let you have it
Old 01-02-2019, 12:03 PM
  #27  
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Guess I missed where he said he had an incident. Not seeing that in this thread. Also, I've never had an accident in any of my Mustangs, but I had one in my C7. Does that mean Corvettes are more prone to accidents than the Mustang?? Not sure the details of the "incident" you're referring to, but seems far too anecdotal to apply universally. But I know you gotta grab any thread you can to knock down the C7, so I'll let you have it
I know its easy to point out the stupidity but why even feed the troll?
Old 01-02-2019, 12:24 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Harbgrogan
I know its easy to point out the stupidity but why even feed the troll?
Touche salesman
Old 01-02-2019, 01:03 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Harbgrogan
I know its easy to point out the stupidity but why even feed the troll?
Yup....At 8 seconds a lap slower, the elephant is the C6!



Old 01-02-2019, 03:08 PM
  #30  
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Well...I can see we have some strong views here.

Fair warning - the first part of the series will feature a comparison of the INTERIORS, the area where I believe there is the biggest disparity. Then, we’ll take it from there.
Old 01-02-2019, 03:37 PM
  #31  
Bill Dearborn
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Originally Posted by Mr. Gizmo


Bill, were you running the same tires on your c6z as your c7z?

i may be incorrect on this , but I recall you mentioned in one of my threads that I complain about the c7z’s acceleration on the big end you could achieve higher speeds on the longer straights with the c6z. Perhaps this is due to the aero or a shortcoming in the Lt4 it self (small supercharger)

Other then high end acceleration do you see any other deficit of the c7z. Perhaps something in its design that might have contributed to the on track incident?
Originally Posted by Toddiesel
Come on @Bill Dearborn . You HAD to know Gizmo wasn't going to let you get away with saying the C7 is better! Gotta cover your bases man! To your comment about attention: that is spot on. I get the exact same thing in mine and I've never seen anyone give a 2nd look to a C6 at cars and coffee
No I wasn't running the same tires. The C7Z I was running Hoosiers and Pirelli P Zero slicks while I was running Hoosiers and Continental Slicks on the C6Z.

Yes, I noticed higher top speeds with the C6Z Vs the C7Z but I saw lower lap times with the C7Z. The C7Z has 150 more HP and 150 more lb ft of torque than the C6Z but it has to pull 300 more pounds away from a corner than the C6Z and it has to pull all of that aero that helps it get around a turn faster. With the C6Z I saw 158 mph at the end of the back straight at the Glen. Many times it would hit over 150. The best I have seen with the C7Z is 152 mph. However, my lap time with the C7Z was 3 seconds faster than the lap time for the C6Z. Even when the car was intermittently misfiring due to much air in the intercooler circuit it was still turning lap times at least as good as the C6Z. Once the misfiring mystery was figured out all of those problems went away.

As for the off track incident that was a pure and simple rookie driving mistake. When the Chief Instructor asked me what happened right after they released me from Medical I just said: "Rookie Mistake". Even though I hadn't had an encounter with any sort of track wall since 1996 until then it was a Rookie Mistake. First, I knew the tires were starting to go away and I had mentioned that to some of my friends in the paddock when I finished the previous session; Second, I knew from many previous laps that if I got on the throttle sooner through that turn that some times the back end would step out; Third, I was too focused on getting a great run down the hill into the next corner and not really paying attention to where I placed the car for the turn I was in. So I had tires that were going away after a lot of usage, I was on a slightly different line through the corner which meant I should delay throttle application, I knew throttle application too soon would make the back end step out even with good tires. I knew all of those things and added too much throttle too soon. That is a Rookie Mistake. Poor-Sha ran a data analysis for me comparing my previous laps going through that turn and the data clearly shows I hit the throttle sooner than all previous laps and did it right at the wrong time since right at that instance the ground was falling away which reduced grip by taking weight off the wheels. If the car had moved 15 to 30 ft further down the track (the blink of an eye) before I went wide open the story would have been different.

When Scott Pruett smashed up one his IMSA cars Chip Ganassi said what happened: "He ran out of talent." That is what happened to me I ran out of talent.

Bill
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Old 01-02-2019, 03:45 PM
  #32  
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But Bill, had you made a "Rookie Mistake" in the C6, it would have not allowed you to crash. It would have corrected itself automatically and kicked in the K.I.T.T turbo drive and finished the lap 12 minutes faster than any C7 could even dream of! Isn't that right, Gizmo?

Seriously though, sorry to hear you had the incident at all and I'm sure you came out better for it. Don't want to derail the thread, but does insurance cover that? Always have been curious.
Old 01-02-2019, 04:03 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Toddiesel
But Bill, had you made a "Rookie Mistake" in the C6, it would have not allowed you to crash. It would have corrected itself automatically and kicked in the K.I.T.T turbo drive and finished the lap 12 minutes faster than any C7 could even dream of! Isn't that right, Gizmo?
Yupp. Rookie mistakes in a Miata tend to be much more forgiving than mistakes in a C7Z.

Old 01-02-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Toddiesel
But Bill, had you made a "Rookie Mistake" in the C6, it would have not allowed you to crash. It would have corrected itself automatically and kicked in the K.I.T.T turbo drive and finished the lap 12 minutes faster than any C7 could even dream of! Isn't that right, Gizmo?

Seriously though, sorry to hear you had the incident at all and I'm sure you came out better for it. Don't want to derail the thread, but does insurance cover that? Always have been curious.
I had Haggerty Track Insurance with the car insured for $70K. Damage came to about $13.3K (once repair started they found a couple things that weren't in the initial estimate so I am not sure of final cost). I had a 10% deductible and my share came to $7K. I have State Farm Insurance for the street and I know they had a clause in the Exclusions Section of my NY Policy that basically said anything that happens on a surface meant for racing isn't covered. State Farm sent me an addendum to my NY policy about 12 years ago that added that exclusion. I am pretty sure the NC policy has the same clause although I haven't looked. When I talked to my State Farm Agent about exactly what the Exclusion meant he thought it excluded everything including bodily injury.

I also had to write a $175 check to the BMW Club for damages to one Tire Bundle. VIR charged them so they pass the charge on to the person who caused the damage.

Bill
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Old 01-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Toddiesel
But Bill, had you made a "Rookie Mistake" in the C6, it would have not allowed you to crash. It would have corrected itself automatically and kicked in the K.I.T.T turbo drive and finished the lap 12 minutes faster than any C7 could even dream of! Isn't that right, Gizmo?

Seriously though, sorry to hear you had the incident at all and I'm sure you came out better for it. Don't want to derail the thread, but does insurance cover that? Always have been curious.
Bill pretty much sized it up - C7Z06 has better times because of better areo downforce. -- my interpretation -- even with better aero with worn tires and big torque being applied then all bets off -- possibly not as big a hazard with a lower torque C6Z car.. . - C6Z06 faster on the longer straights. - C7Z too technically advanced "like Kitt" with Mysterious misfires that come and go -

Last edited by Mr. Gizmo; 01-02-2019 at 04:41 PM.
Old 01-02-2019, 04:46 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Gizmo
Bill pretty much sized it up - C7Z06 has better times because of better areo downforce. -- my interpretation -- even with better aero with worn tires and big torque being applied then all bets off -- possibly not as big a hazard with a lower torque C6Z car.. . - C6Z06 faster on the longer straights. - C7Z too technically advanced "like Kitt" with Mysterious misfires that come and go -
DUDE seriously!!!??

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Old 01-02-2019, 07:11 PM
  #37  
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Nice video and series. That being said, I think all of us have an opinion. As an current owner of a C4 Grand Sport, C6Z (Modified by LG Motorsports, Tony Mamo, and Blackdog Racing), C6 ZR1 (Stock) and C7 ZR1 (Stock), they are all exceptional cars. The C6 Z06 does have a head issue. The C7 Z06 has a overheating issue. Both are expensive fixes. A H/C/I C6 Z06 ith all supporting mods (All motor) are very fast cars. Modified C7 Z06's are also very fast cars. One point that previous replies did not include was the consumables for racing - Given the weight of the C7 Z, they eat up consumables far faster. There are threads on this. There are several people on this forum whom have sold the C7 Z and kept their C6 Z. There are a lot of people who have sold their C6 Z to get into a C7 Z. The interior seats (That being if you selected Competition Seats) are better than the stock C6 Z seats. However, if you have the GT seats, my opinion is that they are basically the same as a C6Z seat. The electronics on the C7 Z is better with the technology advances. That being said, the C7 digital and analog dash reminds me of my C4 Grand Sport. I wish they would have gone all digital or stayed all analog like the C6 Z/ZR. I prefer that over the mix. Looks are subjective. Both look good to me. My personal opinion is that the C7 ZR1 makes the C7 Z06 look dated (At least in the front). Others dislike the ZR1 front. Same with the C6 ZR1 - Some never liked the hood window. For braking,. I have not noticed any difference between the C6 Z or C7 Z steel brakes. The C6 values have held up. I suspect that the C7 will not hold up quite as well due to volume (They made more). Time will tell as well as the C8 mid engine factor into the pricing of the two previous generations.

The C6 Z06 and the LS7 was the best NA Corvette built. They use that engine in some other cars all of you know about that are Supercars.

Both cars are beasts on the track, with the C7Z in A8 also a monster in stock form on a drag strip.

Either one you pick (Or both in the OPs thread and in many other members garages) are awesome machines.

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Old 01-02-2019, 07:13 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by timmyZ06
DUDE seriously!!!??
lol dude he's joking around.

How come you guys don't see this after many many months?

I know when i want to bait, i can bait some members no problem lol. But sometimes i post seriously. He's obviously getting everyone on his fishing reel lol
Old 01-03-2019, 01:31 AM
  #39  
Bill Dearborn
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Originally Posted by JG853
Nice video and series. That being said, I think all of us have an opinion. As an current owner of a C4 Grand Sport, C6Z (Modified by LG Motorsports, Tony Mamo, and Blackdog Racing), C6 ZR1 (Stock) and C7 ZR1 (Stock), they are all exceptional cars. The C6 Z06 does have a head issue. The C7 Z06 has a overheating issue. Both are expensive fixes. A H/C/I C6 Z06 ith all supporting mods (All motor) are very fast cars. Modified C7 Z06's are also very fast cars. One point that previous replies did not include was the consumables for racing - Given the weight of the C7 Z, they eat up consumables far faster. There are threads on this. There are several people on this forum whom have sold the C7 Z and kept their C6 Z. There are a lot of people who have sold their C6 Z to get into a C7 Z. The interior seats (That being if you selected Competition Seats) are better than the stock C6 Z seats. However, if you have the GT seats, my opinion is that they are basically the same as a C6Z seat. The electronics on the C7 Z is better with the technology advances. That being said, the C7 digital and analog dash reminds me of my C4 Grand Sport. I wish they would have gone all digital or stayed all analog like the C6 Z/ZR. I prefer that over the mix. Looks are subjective. Both look good to me. My personal opinion is that the C7 ZR1 makes the C7 Z06 look dated (At least in the front). Others dislike the ZR1 front. Same with the C6 ZR1 - Some never liked the hood window. For braking,. I have not noticed any difference between the C6 Z or C7 Z steel brakes. The C6 values have held up. I suspect that the C7 will not hold up quite as well due to volume (They made more). Time will tell as well as the C8 mid engine factor into the pricing of the two previous generations.

The C6 Z06 and the LS7 was the best NA Corvette built. They use that engine in some other cars all of you know about that are Supercars.

Both cars are beasts on the track, with the C7Z in A8 also a monster in stock form on a drag strip.

Either one you pick (Or both in the OPs thread and in many other members garages) are awesome machines.
My LS7 dropped a valve while going past the start finish line at the Glen. Was just shifting from 3rd to 4th gear at 6800 rpm and as I put the clutch in the tach went to zero. I haven't had any huge failures on the LT4 (knock on wood). I was lucky and GM replaced the engine under warranty. Three years later I had the heads fixed on the replacement engine and GMPP covered $1400 of the cost by replacing the heads so it cost me $3800 to have bronze guides and Ti/Mo intake and exhaust valves installed (Katech recommendation) in the brand new heads. At something like $160.00 each the valves weren't cheap. I was able to sell the old heads for $1000 so total repair cost me $2800. Without GMPP it would have been about $5600 for the solution.

The C7Z does not have an over heating problem. There are plenty of us on the forum that run them hard and long without an over heating issue. I added the GMPP Secondary Radiator to mine before I ever took it to the track. 18 months later GM made the Secondary Radiator standard on all M7 Z06s. Mine has never gotten close to over heating. Some people with A8s have over heated theirs but very few M7s have over heated.

My intermittent misfire issue was finally resolved when GM sent new engineering instructions on how much air had to be bled out of the intercooler and provided a TSB about bleeding the intercooler using the ZR1 intercooler bleeder. After that was done I didn't have any more drop offs in power that cut peak straight away speeds on long straights by about 10 mph. Funny thing about the misfiring is last year before they resolved the problem I was at VIR and set my fastest lap with the engine intermittently misfiring on the back straight.

As far as I am concerned the M7 C7Z met GM's add claims that it was the most trackable Corvette yet. It has the brakes, suspension, differential/transmission cooling and engine cooling required to run 20 minute sessions. The C6Z wasn't quite as trackable since it didn't have the brakes required to do the job reliably. It really slows you down when you don't trust your brakes.

Bill
Old 01-03-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn
My LS7 dropped a valve while going past the start finish line at the Glen. Was just shifting from 3rd to 4th gear at 6800 rpm and as I put the clutch in the tach went to zero. I haven't had any huge failures on the LT4 (knock on wood). I was lucky and GM replaced the engine under warranty. Three years later I had the heads fixed on the replacement engine and GMPP covered $1400 of the cost by replacing the heads so it cost me $3800 to have bronze guides and Ti/Mo intake and exhaust valves installed (Katech recommendation) in the brand new heads. At something like $160.00 each the valves weren't cheap. I was able to sell the old heads for $1000 so total repair cost me $2800. Without GMPP it would have been about $5600 for the solution.

The C7Z does not have an over heating problem. There are plenty of us on the forum that run them hard and long without an over heating issue. I added the GMPP Secondary Radiator to mine before I ever took it to the track. 18 months later GM made the Secondary Radiator standard on all M7 Z06s. Mine has never gotten close to over heating. Some people with A8s have over heated theirs but very few M7s have over heated.

My intermittent misfire issue was finally resolved when GM sent new engineering instructions on how much air had to be bled out of the intercooler and provided a TSB about bleeding the intercooler using the ZR1 intercooler bleeder. After that was done I didn't have any more drop offs in power that cut peak straight away speeds on long straights by about 10 mph. Funny thing about the misfiring is last year before they resolved the problem I was at VIR and set my fastest lap with the engine intermittently misfiring on the back straight.

As far as I am concerned the M7 C7Z met GM's add claims that it was the most trackable Corvette yet. It has the brakes, suspension, differential/transmission cooling and engine cooling required to run 20 minute sessions. The C6Z wasn't quite as trackable since it didn't have the brakes required to do the job reliably. It really slows you down when you don't trust your brakes.

Bill
Agree with you for most of your statement.. BUT disagree slightly on the overheat...
My 2016 A8 was sold after two months on SPA.... it did loose power gradually after two laps and then limp mode after 4 laps. Sold it after 3 months
Now my M7 2018 model is alot better, but cooling is not sufficient to go 10/10 with this car.... i will have to modify or go down to 9/10 (Porsche speed).
Engine seized after 1600 miles and no track duty,:-( that can happen to any car manufactory so besides frustration stranded at SPA, 1000 miles from home... don't put to much into it.
Got car repaired in Germany, brand new crate engine and unfortunately not all air got out of intercooler and first track session.... overheat, limp mode and went home.... But it lasted alot alot longer than my "old" 2016 A8.... and it performed very very well.. Rudskogen Raceway it did 1.33 laps.... best AMG GTR did 2 seconds slower and also Porsche 991.2 GT3 RS... So i was semi happy... Oil temp was 300+ ... ouch
Then i managed to get 0.4 liter extra fluid into intercooler circuit...(0.11 gallons)
So i know i was victim of the intercooler pump shut down....:-(
Next track day was cold, but car was flying and not any loss of power that i could feel..... This time i was down to 1 minute on that track, 100 mph average speed. again every Porsche 991.1 GTR and RS was 3+ seconds slower.... i was excited.....end extremely happy..... i am childish that way.... love to always have been underdog with my Corvettes, and beat the crap out of high dollar cars..... not even sorry for it :-) all in good fun :-)
BUT oil temp was again 280-290, water was 250-255

So i will change cooling on this car, i will try to get oil down to max 260, water 230-235 and then a better intercooler solution with tank on top, better IC radiators

Happy new year Bill

Last edited by Z06Norway; 01-04-2019 at 06:11 AM.


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