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Another coat almost dry... I will sand it again in the morning, and add yet another coat. I want this thing to be strong and keep its shape so i dont have to be fragile with it when we start building onto it.
so... we all know about the thermostatic valves by now, and how they take the oil one way when the car is cold, and another way when the car is hot.
Here is the problem, these c7z's move a lot of oil. I have not been a fan of how small the flow passages are through the thermostatic valves that are currently on the market.
Sure, they work, and sure, we could use them, but I am trying to see if there is a better way. Enter: the brainstorming session on the Normally Open stainless solenoid valve 12v: https://www.electricsolenoidvalves.c...normally-open/
The plan here is to have 2 large Y fittings, one upstream and one downstream of this valve.
The oil can go around the valve, but to do so, it must go through the front mount oil cooler. When the valve is open (which it normally is) the oil just goes through the valve as the valve is the path of least resistance, from the engine, straight back to the dry sump tank on passenger side.
When the valve is closed, the oil has to go through the cooler. Only when the valve is closed, would the oil take this more resistant path through the first Y fitting and through the oil cooler..
The purpose of all of this is to use fittings that are internally large in diameter, so that the dry sump scavenger pump is not having to do anything out of the ordinary, moving this oil.
There would be a thermo switch plugged into the oil line, upstream of the switch, and when it detects the oil is up to 180F or 200 degrees F coming out of the engine, then the solenoid is provided power and is forced closed. (we could keep the oil on these cars right at 180F I believe)
All that said, my biggest hesitation is the max temp that the manufacturer of this valve says it is allowed to see. 250F. Granted, we can stay below that as long as the thermo switch does its job, and the oil cooler will definitely bring the temps back down into check. But, we are getting close to the limits for sure.
I plan to keep searching for a higher temp valve, i have not looked for very long. But, if my memory serves me well, they become very expensive when they are capable of holding higher temps.
Mike I am sure you already looked but have you considered Parker, they make a huge selection of valves and they may have special purpose valves not listed. Contact their tech support and they may be able to help, and if not they may know who can.
that name rings a bell, that is the brand i used to use for another application. Thank you for the heads up. I am also throwing this out there, in hopes someone knows of an even better valve I could use
(a bit more compact also if possible for packaging under the car.)
so... no one makes the shroud for the fan for the 640 oil cooler, only the 634 oil cooler, which is slightly smaller of a cooler by 6 rows. So I am having to convert a 634 shroud to work on a 640. Frankly, a 634 would cool the car down fine as well, but its just the principle in my book, if I can fit the bigger cooler in there, why wouldn't I?
Since no exciting pictures tonight, I figure I will finally explain the secret I have known all along on why the vendors who are cooling blower fluid and radiator fluid, were doomed by the law of diminishing returns, and why oil coolers have massive impacts.
It all comes down to "temp delta" and also "flow rate". The 2019 zr1 has double the flow rate of fluid through the blower. It may be going the same speed as the z06's fluid, but it is 2x the amount of cool fluid, going through the blower, at any given moment.
The z06 only has 1 entrance and exit to the blower. The reason the law of diminishing returns plagues the LT4 blower fluid, and cooling the engine oil with that fluid is easiest explained with the following example...
Lets say the blower fluid is at 160 degrees after it passes through the blower, and lets say it is bringing the boosted air's temp down as well as the engine temp (which it does do), then the blower fluid goes through a front air HX. Lets say it is 90 degrees outside. The blower fluid cant be cooled below 90F by 90F air. It will always be higher than 90F. The delta from 90F to 160F is 70F delta. The greater the delta, the more heat that is extracted from the blower fluid while in the HX. So with the stock HX, lets say the blower fluid is taken to 120F, and then it returns to the blower, where it cools the boosted air and the engine and thus the oil... and then it goes around its loop again.
now lets say I install 2 huge extra air to water intercoolers in the front of the car. How exciting. All that those can do is bring my blower fluid down to, lets say in a perfect world, 90F. My delta is only 30F better. Meanwhile, since it is a double exchange, i wont get 30F lower engine oil temps, i will get something less. So at the end of the day, no matter how many coolers i attach to the front of a z06, to cool its blower fluid, it will always still overheat unless i attack the heat in other ways.
The second way is the radiator. Okay, same concepts as above still apply. Double exchange from air to water to oil... and the water to oil transfer is through thick engine block metal, so there are effectively 2, if not 3 exchanges, and thus the delta's are all cut in halves or thirds, which is why double and triple exchanges are not as efficient as single exchange through thin HX passages.
Third way is the engine oil itself cooled by the air, in a single exchange of heat. Now look what happens, 270F oil that is about to overheat, passes through a HX at the front of the car. My delta is 180F down to 90F ambient air outside. This is a very big deal, and this is going to extract a LOT of heat from the system. Now that my engine oil is put into check into the low 200's, my blower fluid is not being heated up as much each cycle through the engine, nor is my radiator fluid.
So, the irony here, one of the vendors finally flashed an oil cooler this past year, that is a setrab, and mounts in the front of the car, and it is 10 rows tall and about 20 inches long. This is HALF the amount of cooling surface area as the 1 setrab I put in the cheek of the car which is 12 inches wide and 40 rows tall (over double the size). The reason i find this ironic is because this 1 cooler shown and sold by this vendor, was able to bring their oil temps down 60 degrees, plus the other fluid temps in and around the engine fell also, and in 90-100 degree weather. (I praised them for selling this kit btw, it put them ahead of everyone else)
So, the irony is, if the cars overheat around 300 degrees, and that vendor can keep it down to around 240 degrees with a tiny oil cooler while doing serious track duty in high ambient temps, and thus this example is a 60 degree cooling factor. Common sense would be to go ahead and add a larger oil cooler. By doubling the oil cooler size and BTU rating, i wont exactly DOUBLE the amount of engine oil cooling, as the delta shrinks relative to ambient temps outside the cooler the oil gets (law of diminishing returns), but it is common sense that we could cool a car's oil down 100 degrees from 300 to 200, still while on a 90-100 degree day.
Tests will show this soon, and testing with a slightly smaller cooler has already shown us this is the case, we are in the ballpark of what is mentioned above.
And so that is why we are doing what we are doing. We may only cool the car down 60 degrees by using a fan and not cutting the car, but keep in mind, our heat does not continue back to the radiator and the blower HX. Our heat is exhausted in ways that do not negatively affect the other HX in the vehicle. Another reason our car is going to run very cool.
And keep in mind, we still have the other cheek of the car to then equip with another cooler and another fan, without making a single cut to the face of the car. or we can open the fascia up, and have even further improvements.
But the point im getting at is... there is no need to spend 4+ thousand dollars to cool down one of these cars.
A cost effective solution is right around the corner. Leave your stock radiator and blower HX alone, they are fine. You will see soon.
Why dont you not even bother with a thermostatic valve on the fluid oil itself? Run the oil full time through the cheek cooler., then the fan on/off for the cooler based on oil temp. There are probes you can put into the cooler that will measure its temperature and command the fan on and off. Its a much simpler solution in terms of complexity and cost.
This wouldnt work if you are cutting the bumper cover for airflow, but honestly, if what you are discovering is correct, then theres no need for a bumper cut.
Mike I have not dealt with Parker for some time since retiring but I seem to remember the full name was Parker Hannifin. With all the consolidation and buy outs who knows what the name is now. They were really big in the industry 10 + years ago.
Why dont you not even bother with a thermostatic valve on the fluid oil itself? Run the oil full time through the cheek cooler., then the fan on/off for the cooler based on oil temp. There are probes you can put into the cooler that will measure its temperature and command the fan on and off. Its a much simpler solution in terms of complexity and cost.
This wouldnt work if you are cutting the bumper cover for airflow, but honestly, if what you are discovering is correct, then theres no need for a bumper cut.
That is an option, and especially for the track rat who rarely drives it on the street... but even with the fan off, through one of these 12x12 pro thickness oil coolers, i promise you will have serious trouble getting your oil up to temp if you find yourself just jumping in the car for 10 min to run to a restaurant or to the grocery or country club.
The nice thing is, we will make everything a-la-carte, and allow people to build the kits how they want them, should we decide to start selling these.
The other issue is cold ambient temps, if someone starts their car during winter time. I don't know if I want my oil having to go through a cooler at startup. If the person lives in south florida or texas or arizona where it does not get cold often... then it may make more sense.
People can build it however they want, but I want to make sure we at least offer a "no compromise" system that can be daily driven in alaska one second, and then keep a car the coolest it can be kept on a 120F degree day in the arizona desert on a race track... without them having to so much as pop their hood.
This is how WE do things on our personal cars where applicable, so they just work all the time, no matter where we go, no drama.
Mike I have not dealt with Parker for some time since retiring but I seem to remember the full name was Parker Hannifin. With all the consolidation and buy outs who knows what the name is now. They were really big in the industry 10 + years ago.
I emailed one of their distributors yesterday via a website portal, and have not heart back yet.
That is an option, and especially for the track rat who rarely drives it on the street... but even with the fan off, through one of these 12x12 pro thickness oil coolers, i promise you will have serious trouble getting your oil up to temp if you find yourself just jumping in the car for 10 min to run to a restaurant or to the grocery or country club.
The nice thing is, we will make everything a-la-carte, and allow people to build the kits how they want them, should we decide to start selling these.
The other issue is cold ambient temps, if someone starts their car during winter time. I don't know if I want my oil having to go through a cooler at startup. If the person lives in south florida or texas or arizona where it does not get cold often... then it may make more sense.
People can build it however they want, but I want to make sure we at least offer a "no compromise" system that can be daily driven in alaska one second, and then keep a car the coolest it can be kept on a 120F degree day in the arizona desert on a race track... without them having to so much as pop their hood.
This is how WE do things on a personal cars where applicable, so they just work all the time, no matter where we go, no drama.
Without airflow across the cooler fins, heat drop is going to be negligible
the air does circulate in there, it does not stay hot in there for long once a person is moving. I will demonstrate what the system does with all the oil passing through the cooler with the fan off. I just know from experience, especially in colder climates, the cooler has an impact.
And again, i want you to think what happens if someone starts their car when it is below freezing outside, and that oil HAS to pass through the cooler to get back to the dry sump tank, being pushed by the scavenger pump in the pan, which normally only has to push oil up a hose that is literally larger than AN-12 hose.
You are adding a restriction to the system for sure on cold starts. Might be fine, but I am not a fan of just shrugging things off as "yeah, its fine" when people's engines and my own are on the line.
Had some setbacks with the person who convinced me they could build the bracket... theirs did not work so i spent the entire evening bending metal around myself. It is a tricky location because one can not trace things from above and measure easily. I decided to do things the cave man way, and do trial and error, as I trimmed things, and eye-balled them, and then trimmed some more.
This bracket is ugly as hell, i realize, but it fits snug, and everything lines up. Tomorrow, I will drill a hole in the back tab, and put that bolt in to secure the bracket on the rear tab. I will take this prototype bracket back to the experts, and let them brainstorm how we will make it in the simplest fashion possible. I have my own ideas now. The key is having the right shape and length hard metal blocks and rails, to be able to vice different parts of this bracket, and bend it around easily (which i did not have tonight)
I believe I could get the proper supplies to make them myself, but I am still up for ideas from the experts so that I do not overlook anything.
Instead of doing the hook underneath, i decided to take advantage of one of the bolts. I might do both bolts on the final draft, but once you feel it, you will see there is no need to use both bolts. I don't want people having to mess with the nut behind the bolt, etc.
Tomorrow I will also attach the puller fan to the rear of the cooler, and see how that looks/fits. Once everything is bolted in, I will put the nose of the car back on, just to double check it all fits, but im 99% sure its fine and plenty of space. The way I hung it, i did not utilize the cut out notch in the cooler. Utilizing the cut out causes the cooler to face more square into the wind. But due to the technical difficulties on the bracket, I decided to keep it simple on this first try and have everything line up square on this first round.
on the top left of the cooler, the bracket is going to curl up around backwards, and hang on top of that headlight frame piece and be secured by that screw from above. I meant to build it that way, but it was pretty late last night, and accidentally cut the material for the tab, right off.
I'm most likely going to make the cooler mount bracket out of carbon fiber. I am going to meet with a guy who molds carbon for a living, just to get his 2 cents, but I feel like it will actually be the simplest way moving forward, and also keep weight down and add a lot of value to the potential kit. The aluminum bracket I made last night, will allow me to mock up a mold out of fiberglass, which will in turn be used to make the carbon piece bracket.
So, the fan fits fine, but I am not happy with the fan shroud itself. It is made of heavy metal. This particular shroud does not fit the cooler exactly, as it is a hair too short by 6 rows, but there is not a shroud made for a 40 row, only a 34 row. I was planning on trimming the shroud on one side so that it would accommodate the larger cooler, but I no longer see the point. In any event, this shroud weighs a lot. I am bummed that I am going to have to most likely fab up a way to have the fan on the cooler naked, and just put an insulating seal between the fan outer shroud ring and the cooler fins, and somehow attach that to the cooler.
The other thing I am not happy about is the cars air intake is going to be sucking from this heated air that exits the cooler and its fan. I have known this was going to be a problem, and was hoping I would be able to move toward solving i in another fashion, by having an air intake on the hood of the car, that then goes through the passenger side of the existing hood duct, and feeds the air box that way.
I would love to be the first to do this, but I am overwhelmed. I have attached a photo of it below. I really hope companies like Vararam who have not released their z06 intake box yet, have it inhaling from the hood seam, as their stingray intake does.
I have also attached photos of a shroud that can be used for the track guys, who choose not to run a fan, or, run the fan inside the shroud I have attached a photo of (there"s an idea i just thought of as i was writing)
That shroud can be opened up to accommodate 40 rows (it too is only for 34 rows). I was planning on perhaps molding my own shroud out of plastic that covered all 40 rows. The perk to this reverse side shroud is that a hose can be ran to the exit point at the back of the wheel well at the bottom/inner corner. If the hose stuck down ever so slightly, it would create a great vacuum at the end of the hose, as the car is driving. evacuating the hot air out of the cheek area, and away from the airbox intake.
Any ideas on slick tricks to mount the fan to the HX, without the heavy steel shroud, please let me know.
after I wrote the above post I realized that an intake like Jeremy at Fasterproms had, where it inhales from under the car... that style tube could be mounted into this system, and snaked up behind the fan, to the intake for the air box.
since I will be making a custom shroud now for the back of the cooler, I am interested in smaller, very powerful fans... that flow a ton of air. I can set them in the bottom left or bottom right and have them attached to a tube, that evacuates the air through a 3 inch or 4 inch duct/hose to the opening at the back of the cheek. They would be air tight to the cooler due to the custom shroud im going to have to build anyway most likely. I could compound these smaller fans, and have them in series. Just throwing out the idea in case someone knows of some hyper small fans, or if I should just stay with the large one
02-27-2019, 05:55 PM
