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what are you guys thoughts on going to a -12? instead of the -16?, i have talked to setrab a lot about the topic and they assure me the 12 line is plenty large to move the oil across.
Update... i dont even think the -16 fittings could fit next to each other, the more I look at it. I think we MUST run -12 fittings here, look what happens when they are side by side, these are -12 in the photo...
Glad We caught this now, before we start making 300 of these damn things.
further confirmation of the -12 being plenty is due to a well known dry sump system oil upgrade company, and their famous LS7 kit being better than GM's...
well apparently B---- knows the owner somehow, and in his convo today trying to track down the adapter fittings for the oil lines (which no one has) he was emailed the below photos, which are of a still classified perhaps he said, maybe not? I'm not sure. "LT1, LT4 and LT5 oil upgrade system and a much more powerful oil pump than the stock GM pump, which will be mounted out on the side of the engine.
B---- says this will be the only oil pan replacement we will endorse, other than the factory system....
logos are blocked out for now, but we may be vendors for these soon enough...
(anyway, they run -12, and swear that larger is not needed) But the cool thing is, they can run the -16 as their fittings are not right next to each other like GM's who make it difficult to add aftermarket cooling on purpose
if any vendor could produce a RELIABLE 170-175 degree thermostat, I would love to market that stat and put it in with our kit for the stock tune vehicles. Let us know.
Supposedly mishimoto has a more reliable housing on their 180 out now.
I should have pulled the headlight out sooner. I feel rather dumb. I wanted to have the install NOT require the removal of the headlight. However, the bolts in the recessed area, are very difficult to get to once one starts to put U beams or L beams in the way to hold up the cooler.
I am leaning toward doing a hybrid bracket, it will have the U beam shown in the video, but will have a simple plate that comes down from the top bolts and holds it up, or attach to the recess area. I can have that plate easily mass produced by a professional shop as it is not a complex piece. The complexity and the sandwich I can have built to spec and attach to the U beam.
As the cooler is currently sitting, a fan attaches to the back of it no problem.
I forgot to point out the ventilation hole in the back corner by the engine, that will be done in the next video. If a person wanted to Trim, they could easily cut back there at the hole.
Rainy so keeping the car under a cover nearby my place. Been doing a lot of driving around without a front fascia lately, cops give us great looks.
I will have these brackets and rods done by the time the oil line fittings show up. The rod at the bottom mounts to the car's skid frame bolt, so its a solid place to mount.
Update:
I've realized how im going to make the bracket, i can tighten the plate to the 2 bolts in the recess area, and then attach the U beam to the plate AFTER... so the U beam does not get in the way to tighten down the 2 bolts.
From there it pretty straight forward.
This will allow for install without removing the headlight, which is what I was shooting for.
(drilling holes and vicing to the black plate in the car was the easy solution, but a dealer could look for those holes to see if this kit was ever on a car)
All the metal fab shops were wanting the moon in price to make the metal bracket, finally found one who has the tools to make it in an easier fashion than their competition, so i think that problem is now solved for the bracket.
Now i just need to wait on the Oil pan fittings, and we are ready to rock. Fan with thermostatic on/off switch will be attached to the back of the cooler.
On the bottom rod, do people think they would want a 1 fixed length rod, or something with threads to adjust the vertical tilt of the cooler to match up with their unique situations perhaps? I am thinking people will want the adjustable threaded rod. I found the threaded rod, but am looking for the female screw on bits with a leaf/eye attached to them so that they can be bolted to the cooler and to the car's frame.
Sorry for lack of updates, here it is with the -12 side threads instead of the -16 which would have made the female hex hit the other female hex on the other fitting next to it since GM put the 2 locations so close to each other on the dry sump pan and on the dry sump tank.
Should be ready in a couple weeks from today.
These allow a person to only have to tap into one side, and leave the other side alone, so it ends up saving a person a lot of money. The other aftermarket fittings that exist are the 2 in 1 combined fitting, and the only one that does not appear to have long term leaking issues is "Peterson's" fitting, since it has the longer male end and accommodates the GM factory seal (as ours does as well), and those go for over 130 dollars, plus you have to buy 2, one for the pan and one for the tank, plus you have to buy all the AN fittings and hose for the side that you had NO intention of splicing into, so it becomes a big headache with the double fitting in 1 piece.
So we have these coming where each fitting is separate, so you can leave the other side alone and save a lot of money and headache. In doing so, It also keeps the full -16 factory line in tact for the feed side hose between the Tank and the Pan. Money saved and optimal flow.
If any vendors would wish to sell these also, please get a hold of me, I will sell them to the vendor at cost, and it will create larger volume orders, and allow the costs to be reduced even further. They are currently coming in clear anodized aluminum, but if you would like them in black and your logo on them, let us know sooner than later.
Welp, our "GM emulating fitting producer" told us 3 weeks, and we are at that point I would say, so they are overdue as of today. I will reach out to them tomorrow and see how much longer the wait is. I just wanted people to know we did not give up, our hands are just tied until these fittings are made. If you want these fittings for your own projects, please let us know sooner than later.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike, how do the oil coolers you plan on using compare to proper water cores? Is there much difference is tube dimensions and fin density? Just thinking you might be able to get bigger (thicker) cores made up rather than being stuck to off the shelf oil cores. Also would possibly allow for a much thicker core (assuming there is room). Just a thought.
Mike, how do the oil coolers you plan on using compare to proper water cores? Is there much difference is tube dimensions and fin density? Just thinking you might be able to get bigger (thicker) cores made up rather than being stuck to off the shelf oil cores. Also would possibly allow for a much thicker core (assuming there is room). Just a thought.
Mike, how do the oil coolers you plan on using compare to proper water cores? Is there much difference is tube dimensions and fin density? Just thinking you might be able to get bigger (thicker) cores made up rather than being stuck to off the shelf oil cores. Also would possibly allow for a much thicker core (assuming there is room). Just a thought.
Before I chose to go with these coolers, i asked the powers that be at Setrab IF these coolers could handle water and what some of the differences are. One of the main differences is that a water cooler has to be corrosion resistant in the event a customer does not run completely distilled water in the cooling circuit. As long as a customer does run distilled water through the oil coolers I am using, then the HX itself will not corrode internally.
IF the non corroding metals that are used in water cooling HX were the most optimal for cooling oil also, then those materials would be used for the oil coolers as well. But the proof is in the pudding, the better materials for cooling can be corrosive, but with oil, that is no longer a concern.
So the main difference between water and oil coolers is this choice of what material they are made out of. Oil coolers have no compromise in material selection for heat extraction as there is no concern with corrosion.
Oil coolers are optimized for oil cooling. Cooling oil is not a new thing, its been around for a long time on many vehicles including large trucks and tractors. There are plenty of samples of different kinds of oil coolers in the market that all of the oil cooler HX manufacturers can test and study before they decide which they are going to use.
One of the bragging points of a Setrab Pro Line oil cooler is that it IS very thick, and any thicker, and air would not move through the cooler well. Its the law of diminishing returns when one starts to make an oil cooler TOO thick in the dimension that the air has to pass through.
Take a close up photo of a Setrab HD Pro Line series cooler and pay attention to the way the conductive metal is very thin but also densely packed in geometry, and also not smooth but instead has many stamped ridges, this creates many impact points if you will, as the air flows through, the heat transfers are greater from the metal to the air when the air molecules are forced closer to the metal. If the metal is too rough and complex in general shape, air wont flow through much at all, so no transfer takes place... or too smooth, and not as much heat is transferred away from the metal HX to the air itself.
Same principles apply inside the flow passages for the oil/water, they are not perfectly smooth, nor are they too rough to where flow is halted or jeopardized.
I would much prefer to have many oil passages that are short VS only a few that are long. The more quantity of oil passages, the less the restriction as the oil is able to travel/flow at a slower speed/velocity within each cooling passage since there are so many options for the oil to travel in parallel. Long/tall coolers that have many passages in the lateral direction, are the best of all worlds when it comes to cooling oil.... and this is why GM uses this style oil cooler in the rear of the car to cool the transmission fluid.
Since water flows easier and thus faster with less force of pressure to make it move, longer passages are acceptable with water cooling without encountering so much of the negative trade-off of unnecessary passage resistance and fluid circuit pressure drop across the HX.
I am not here to speak against other brands, I am simply here to say that upon examination, I found the Setrab HD and Pro Line to be the highest quality cooler and well/logically constructed cooler I could get my hands on, and yes I have looked at every other brand of cooler which is seen on this forum.
Another thing is pressure, and while I wont be tying into a place where 50psi engine oil will be forced through the cooler, it will be nice for owners to know if they wish to put the cooler to use doing another job in the car, that the HX can easily hold the higher pressures, and was intended for oil cooling use and optimized for such use, from its inception.
Keep in mind, Setrab is not based in the USA, they have a headquarters here, but these coolers are in competition for Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti, Mercedes, etc... the market they are in is rather fierce where turbos are common place and hot oil and external oil HX are very common on even your standard family sedan or small truck, I would say Setrab are at the top of the class, at least for coolers you or I can run out and buy.
We buy from people as much as we by a specific product, but I do believe Setrab is the best product on the market, otherwise I would have gone another direction. I'm not here to come in second place in cooling these cars down, per customer's-dollar-spent attempting to do so.
I believe when we are done, we will have the most potent bang-for-buck cooling kits for corvette c7 and eventually c8, on the market....
....should we decide to become vendors and offer these for sale to the public.
They say the fittings will be ready the 26th of this month... so ill be waiting until then i suppose.
Just a reminder, we already have coolers put into cars, but we hacked into the dry sump oil line in a fashion that we do not feel proud of... -16 an hose adapters are bigger than a baseball
So these fittings we have coming will make everything clean and simple.
I've never seen anything so beautiful and perfect in my life
I'm a little biased though.
So much time and money to get these things made properly.
I should have them in the mail tomorrow, we will test them on my car and a few others, and make sure they don't leak for any reason...
And then its time to enter the new chapter of cooling c6, c7, Camaro, CTSV, trucks who have/want dry sump, and probably even cool down c8's, assuming GM uses the same impossible to obtain dry sump oil fittings (and i think they will).
While the single piece, double in/out fittings, currently exists on the market, those are inferior to this single fitting to -AN thread, as this allows the -16 FEED LINE to remain untouched and unrestricted and in tact, and this allows for ONLY the return line to the dry sump tank to be cleanly replaced with a line that facilitates the front mount air to oil cooler HX circuit instead.
Talk to the forum members who have done the stock oil cooler adapter, and take note of their oil and coolant temps... the coolant drops big time but oil stays the same or rises. Thats because the stock oil cooling brick is what puts the radiator fluid to work cooling the oil. By removing that brick, you've lost your radiator cooling for the oil in a very large way.
Instead, with these fittings, stock oil cooler brick is kept in place, and oil is now cooled in 2 locations instead of 1. No more overheating on the track And only 1 heat exchanger needed to solve the problem.
We will use the factory GM metal/rubber crush washer/gasket/seal on our fittings as well.
If you need these for your own custom oil cooling projects, give me a shout, i know where you can get them. We can also facilitate vendors and shops.
if you or anyone else want to roll the dice and be guinea pigs, it is your car. My plan is i wanted to test it on my car and report back all of the results.
Essentially what I am putting on my car is a spal fan behind the oil cooler, and no oil thermostatic bypass at first. I want to see how cold it keeps the oil for those interested.
The fan will be thermostatic.
then, once we have that, i was going to further test with the thermostatic valve, and just double check everything runs smooth, and things come up to operating temp as they should.
So far, we have been testing the kit without thermostatic valves, just to see how cold it keeps things, and when its cold out, it keeps the oil too cold unless a person was running 0-40 oil, and i think i would run it that way on my car, without the valve, if i was a serious track rat.
For the people who are only occasional track rats, then the thermostatic valve is probably needed, if you live somewhere where it gets cool.
Keep in mind, the thermostatic valve lets some 20% of the oil through the valve straight back to the sump tank we have noticed, so the cooling is not as severe/effective when the thermostatic valves are used as a portion of the oil remains un-cooled.
To get maximum cooling, a person wants to run it straight through the cooler. This is true on all thermostatic valves we have researched. If anyone knows of a valve that closes 100%, please let us know. It would need to be the H style for -12 AN hose.
We have looked into actuated valves by Parker etc, but have not tested those yet as we are just now getting the adapters to run the -12 hose.
if any vendor could produce a RELIABLE 170-175 degree thermostat, I would love to market that stat and put it in with our kit for the stock tune vehicles. Let us know.
Supposedly mishimoto has a more reliable housing on their 180 out now.
buy a stock one, buy a summit 170 tstat, put the 170 bulb in the stock one. done.
I had someone point out to me that the other vendor's kits are similar to mine, they are just using a smaller cooler, but using 2 of them on each side.
I threw together the list of why this is not similar...
for simplicity reasons, lets say they are using 2 coolers that are about half the size of the ones I'm using. I'm using 6x40 Setrab Pro Line, so lets say they are using 6x25 Setrab pro line.
My setup runs oil on the passenger side, and will run blower coolant, radiator fluid, or trans coolant on the driver side, depending which you believe you need more.
The other vendors offer oil cooling on their top tier kits. You are probably familiar with the price tags on these. The oil coolers are BEHIND the blower coolant coolers. This means hot air from the blower HX is now exhausting into the oil cooler HX behind it. So the delta is minimized on their kit to cool the oil.
That's their first negative.
Their second negative is their 2 coolers stacked on top of each other, provides a lot of friction/resistance, so it is not an easy job for air to go through BOTH coolers. To say it is twice as difficult, is not accurate, it is actually more than double (has to do with the way flow rates/aerodynamics/paths of least resistance, all work, etc.)
So not only is their delta minimized, their flow rates are cut in half... when compared to running one very large oil cooler on one side, and one very large water or trans cooler on the driver's side of the car.
Next is weight. You have double the fittings. You have more than double the hose used, and while the cores of the HX come out to be the same weight since I'm running one twice as large, you still have the chamber's next to the cores, which once again, are doubled. Your brackets also have to be larger with double coolers.
Then you have the price. Fittings and hose cost money. True net cost will be higher on theirs, always.
Then you have space behind the cooler for a fan, and fan size itself doing work. Our fan is bigger. Instead of having a small fan try to pull air through 2 coolers, we have 1 large fan pulling air through 1 cooler.
Then we have location we are tying into the oil circuit.... we are tying into the oil at the scavenger line back to the tank... this provides for a zero pressure drop on engine oil pressure (oil pressure is more important than oil temp to avoid destruction to bearings in most reasonable cases)
This also has a huge impact on your engine's safety, should you spring a leak. Lets say a projectile hits the oil cooler... or one of the lines is damaged, etc... maybe you change your oil and forget to tighten something down all the way...
Well understand, when you have engine oil pressures of 40psi, pushing the oil though the HX on the other kits that attach where the oil cooler brick goes, and a leak occurs on that system, you're going to lose a lot of oil, and fast. You also just lost your engine oil pressure to some degree as soon as the leak is sprung, and you will totally lose oil pressure once your oil levels get too low.
Meanwhile, ours ties into the scavenger line. This is not a high pressure situation, it is a very large -16 size hose, so restriction is minimized, and even if you do spring a leak for whatever reason, the lack of higher pressure will allow oil to remain in the system, and instead pass by the leak's location instead of be forced out the leak point of identical size for fair comparison purposes. ... but the most important part is, no immediate oil pressure loss to the engine... its on the scavenger pump side, not the engine oil pump side. And again, longer time lengths required to run the system dry of oil in a low pressure line, to where a total oil pressure loss situation occurs for the engine.
We are also using dash 16 equivalent hose, in place of the dash 16 equivalent factory oil line between the engine and the oil tank. We are keeping it wide open like GM designed, so it remains a high flow, low pressure area in the system (for the reasons I described above).
We use single pass coolers to minimize pressure loss and flow reduction downstream of the large single Setrab 640 HX. This also keeps the pressure down in this HX oil circuit
By using large single pass coolers, it gives even easier flow yet vs the other kits on the market. So for instance, a 6x25 is going to create a larger pressure loss downstream compared to a 6x40. More passages for the oil to travel across means it travels slower per passage. Less velocity through the passage, more time for cooling to occur, and also less force needed to push it down the higher number of channels.
Now realize, we are only going through 1 oil cooler, where many vendors are going through 2 coolers, so the restriction is not just halved, its actually one quarter the restriction in ours. Passages and cooler count, some of theirs are double the restriction, twice. which equals 4x.... and that all cruxes on other kits using single pass, and not double pass coolers. Put double pass coolers into the above mix, and you're now at a total of 8x the restriction, and 8x the pressure drop. This is a big deal.
You will also see other vendors put oil coolers in front of the center radiator and blower HX, once again killing delta to the radiator/blower HX, and also reducing total air flow as extra air chooses to go over the hood instead of enter the radiator area, paths of least resistance changed with added HX there.
You will also see other vendors put the oil coolers up high in the engine bay in front of the engine... this adds a huge risk, as the dry sump system is either LOW while under normal operation, or if filled properly for use while operating, but then when the car shuts off, the oil system becomes HIGH in the engine pan/crank case, and that oil is able to make its way back down to the engine oil pan from the high located cooler. For those that don't know, an extra couple quarts of oil can cause the back of the piston face to hit oil on the way down during a cold startup, when the oil has had time to seep back to the engine, especially if the car is parked on the correct incline.... IF the car has more oil in it than factory. It takes oil to fill that oil cooler vendors are throwing up on top in front of their engine.
So, please don't think it is coincidence when we have an answer for every shot other vendors might take at us at a later date... we put more thought into the way we are doing things than most people can imagine.
Thank you all for being patient, good rewards will be here soon.
And I saved the most important for last.... we attack the oil temp first, not last, and we don't require any other cooler to be added or removed or their delta's jeopardized... with our system to cool your oil down, and keep a car out of limp mode, and our system cuts no hoses nor does it cut the car or drill a single hole, if the customer does not want to.
Fan driven, no cut solution, behind the factory fascia. Or cut the fascia, and get even more cooling (assuming you are driving and not parked or going 10mph)
Thank you all for keeping tabs on what we are doing. There is going to be a reason why our 2 large coolers logically, or to some, "mysteriously" outperform the other vendor's 4 HX in the same locations, for certain instances of heat reduction, especially in the "no cut fascia, fan driven" battle.
Head to head testing will be used to demonstrate this, that way there is not silly forum debates about what chart people put together and the outside ambient temps are different, or how the cars were driven is different, yada yada...
2 cars, same transmissions, same day, same track, same pace around that track, same rpm and shift points, and each will have equal opportunity to be out front of the other and get the clean air to see what differences are made in that department.
If our system comes in second place on cooling, we are okay with it, because our system is going to be less than half the price should we become vendors and offer it for sale. But I have a feeling we might also come in first in cooling Its all in the physics and the math and the way we designed everything. Nothing was decided without thought or with a coin toss or us taking the easy paths as we have created this.
Everything was designed in pursuit of the best possible option that the c7's platform allows for, while keeping the car's engine as safe as possible, and not cutting the cars up if the owner does not want to.
wait have you tested anything yet?
how do you expect to tackle coolant temps with a hot HX in the way still? The ZL1s use an aux radiator and aux intercooler on the sides.
how do you expect to tackle coolant temps with a hot HX in the way still? The ZL1s use an aux radiator and aux intercooler on the sides.
because the oil is no longer raising the coolant temps, the oil is being cooled by a Setrab 640 pro series cooler with a Spal 1200cfm fan attached to the back of it.
When oil temps fall, all temps fall.
Yes, we have them on cars as we speak, but are about to test the stronger 1200cfm fans. This is our "no cut" solution.
The drivers side will cool blower fluid or radiator fluid further, with another Setrab 640, rated at 67,000btu/hr.
So we have all the stock cooling, plus another 130,000btu/hr added to the system, cooling it off.
ill give you a hint, the temps go down a bit
Large delta's extract the most heat.
The hottest temp on the car is the oil. The second hottest temp on the car is radiator fluid.
03-18-2019, 07:25 PM
