Mikec7z

Good evening everyone. One of the people in our clan who has been having trouble with his corvette, took GM to Lemon Law Arbitration via the BBB Autoline Arbitration service.

He has had over 6 failures I believe, and GM awarded him a replacement vehicle offer, even BEFORE he arrived at the BBB Arbitration Hearing.

This person took GM to BBB arbitration because there were still disputes surrounding sales tax, registration tag fees, warranties etc, that were purchased on the original vehicle that was a lemon, which GM would not pay for on the new vehicle, causing him to have to come out of pocket over $10,000 dollars to enter into a safe vehicle.

Both the owner of the corvette, and GM, BOTH made it very clear to the BBB Arbitrator that the ONLY reason they were in the hearing was to discuss these fees, as GM had already agreed to give the Lemon Corvette Owner a new replacement vehicle.

BBB conducted the Arbitration hearing, and the discussion revolved around these fees. The Corvette owner provided all receipts and proofs of payment on the disputed fees he needed to be paid on the new replacement vehicle to make him whole, which his state's lemon law clearly state a manufacturer should pay.

It should be noted that, The problem with the vehicle revolves around loss of fuel pressure, and in many cases, loss of fuel pressure can be very dangerous, as the fuel may be leaking outside the vehicle. Loss of fuel pressure also and absolutely results in a lean Air/Fuel mixture, which also may cause an engine to experience catastrophic failure, especially considering the vehicle has air forced induction from a supercharger.

Keep in mind, shrapnel from the engine block and internals could potentially take out the steering rack or module or also put oil on the road, under the car, causing the back tires to lose grip. In any event, we are talking about a SERIOUS danger to the driver, its passengers, and also close proximity bystanders when this vehicle EXPLODES from gasoline fire and/or loses control while being driven, as it is a 3,500 lb object which is moving at highways speeds, which can easily kill all the parties stated above.

BBB eventually concluded the Arbitration hearing after gathering all the evidence from the Lemon Corvette owner, and the corvette owner went home and parked the car and has not driven it since. He has not been able to drive his car for over 3 months. The first month was waiting for the BBB Hearing. The second 2 months were waiting for the BBB to make a ruling on the +$10,000 in taxes and fees. His odometer proves he has not been driving his car which he is still having to pay for.

It has been over 2 months since the BBB's hearing with this corvette owner, and as of right now, BBB has still NOT given a ruling on these +$10,000 in fees which he and GM have the dispute on.

BBB did provide him a ruling within 10 days of the hearing. However, the ruling, was NOT what he and GM requested ruling upon. The ruling the BBB gave was an "Order for GM to Replace the Vehicle"

For those having trouble keeping up, this ruling simply ordered GM to do, exactly what GM had already agreed and offered to do in the first place, before the Corvette owner ever arrived at the BBB Arbitration Hearing, there was no ruling at all on the taxes and fees and warranties etc, which are what the corvette owner and GM agreed were the disputes they needed resolution to.

After receiving the BBB's ruling from the BBB Arbitrator, the Corvette owner quickly requested that the BBB please update their ruling to include judgement on the +$10,000 in fees etc, as the BBB's form instructs customers to inform the BBB if there is a problem with the ruling or a problem with the manufacturer abiding by this ruling.

BBB's explanation to him was that they would "talk to GM and get this sorted out" when the corvette owner again asked BBB for ruling on these fees/taxes/warranties.

GM would then come back a few days later with a slightly higher offer than before. This game continued over several weeks. But never did GM offer the amount that the Corvette owner felt he was entitled to via the State's Lemon Law Provisions/Guidelines.

The Corvette owner soon began to realize, the BBB had still never officially ruled on the fees that both the Corvette Owner and GM had both clearly informed the BBB that they needed ruling on in BBB Arbitration Hearing. All of the additional settlement agreements he was receiving were only VOLUNTARY offers from GM. This means that the BBB's ruling remains vague, which protects the BBB and the manufacturer if the lemon vehicle owner decides to take the manufacturer to state court instead.

This also means, the BBB is promising a false service from the get go, unless they begin to spell out that they will NOT rule on such fees, which they do NOT spell out, yet they do have a page which indicates the things they will not rule upon, and the taxes and warranties are NOT listed on this page. (page is attached in second post)

Now think about this for a bit... why, if you are GM, would your offer increase, if BBB never makes a ruling? It seems to us, the only reason GM would increase their offer, is IF the BBB told GM that they needed to give the customer a bit more money, but that order is never disclosed or seen by the customer. Seems a bit shady, don't you think? We think so.

The corvette owner pointed this "lack of taxes and fees ruling" out to the BBB, and that is when things started to get very strange, and I will not go into full detail at this time, but just know, at this moment in time, the BBB has still never given him a ruling on the dispute he and GM both agreed they were in BBB arbitration to have ruled upon, nor have they responded if they are obligated to, when he asks them point blank IF they intend to ever give him a ruling on these taxes and fees and warranties.

A little more background, many states award customers TRIPLE DAMAGES on the amount the manufacturer refuses to pay. By BBB never ORDERING GM to make a fair payment, perhaps GM is in the clear from being charged with triple damages, and perhaps BBB is off the hook from being sued later for giving an unfair ruling? We are not sure. This corvette owner's lemon vehicle IS in a state where Triple Damages are ordered to be enforced in its lemon laws, should the manufacturer try to low ball the lemon owner. Low balling for a week or a month, is perhaps acceptable, but we are now past the 3 month mark from the time he notified GM his car was a lemon and provided all documentation proving such.

It is becoming apparent that one possibility on the table may be that the BBB and the Manufacturers work together to see how much money they can hold and thus prevent the consumer from being awarded and see if they can get the customer to agree. After all, who is paying for the BBB Arbitration Hearing and the BBB Autoline program, and the BBB's employees' paychecks to be funded? Not the customer/corvette owner, as it is a free service for the consumer. So it is assumed that one possibility is that the manufacturers are paying the BBB's bills on this program.

Thus, it is potentially possible that a conflict of interest MAY exist where the BBB is awarded financial compensation from Manufacturers IF they prevent lemon vehicle owners from receiving full compensation from the manufacturer, in accordance with state laws, which would then HYPOTHETICALLY keep a lot of money in the manufacturer's pocket instead of being ordered to be paid out to lemon vehicle owners across the country.

This will need to be further investigated before a true definitive judgement is made on how the BBB conducts their business practices within their Autoline Arbitration Program, and why they continue to avoid giving this Lemon Corvette owner a fair ruling on the disputes at hand, which are clearly spelled out in the state law, for the manufacturer to pay his requested taxes and warranties and vehicle add on's in Lemon Vehicle situations.

The owner is now going to have to take GM to court in his state since the BBB would not rule on the matter of taxes/fees/warranties, as GM has still, at the time of this writing, NOT agreed to make the corvette owner whole according to the corvette owner and attorney's interpretation of the law. Attorneys are advising him to take GM to state court. He gave GM every chance to do the right thing, and 2 extra months for GM and BBB to sort out their understanding of his case and what is fair.

Currently the customer is going to have to come out of pocket thousands of dollars to be placed into the new vehicle SHOULD he choose to accept GM's most recent offer, when his state's lemon laws make it clear that he needs not pay his own money to re-establish warranties and taxes and tag and registration fees and vehicle add on's, for the replacement vehicle.

I am close friends with this person at this point, and have been near this person when they field phone calls and are sending emails to GM and BBB from their phone, trying to get this problem resolved. I will probably be a witness in front of the judge how much brain damage this has been for this lemon owner to try to get this ruling settled.

In the above photo, there is a RED BOX, and the reason I added the RED BOX is to make people aware of, what appears to be a trick by the BBB when they give vague rulings that do not specify the taxes and fees and warranties etc.

Upon receiving the "ruling" from the BBB to have the car replaced, the Corvette owner was verbally asked by the BBB to sign this form and select the option that includes this RED BOX, IF THE CORVETTE OWNER WANTED RULING ON THE TAXES AND WARRANTY ITEMS WHICH WERE UNDER DISPUTE BETWEEN HE AND GM.

The text within this red box clearly states that the corvette owner relinquishes their right to pursue GM in State Court for Lemon Law, IF GM adheres to the BBB's ruling.

Well, its easy for GM to adhere to the BBB's ruling because BBB's ruling in this instance was exactly what GM had already offered the customer, prior to the Arbitration Hearing, and the ruling does not include any verbiage or instruction on the taxes/fees/warranties.

Staff of the BBB verbally told the corvette owner that they can't provide the corvette owner a ruling on the taxes and fees and warranties until AFTER the customer signs this form.

The corvette owner understands the law well, and made it clear to the BBB that IF he signs this form, and then IF the BBB ended up not ruling to his liking on the +$10,000 in taxes and warranties to make him whole, THEN he the corvette owner would NOT be able to pursue GM any further in state court to achieve fair judgement as Lemon Law was intended to provide victims of un-repairable and unsafe vehicles.

In fact, the form says that as long as the manufacturer adheres to the ruling decision which has been outlined, then the consumer has no recourse and has to go with the vehicle swap without any further recourse. In this case, the ruling decision does not specify the taxes and warranties at all.

Once the corvette owner made it clear he understood this, is when the BBB started going in circles with the customer and GM and the offers from GM began to creep higher and higher, but not without a serious battle from the customer to GM directly. And keep in mind, the customer does not have a lawyer in this BBB service to act on the customer's behalf, so he had to handle BBB and GM himself.

At the time of this writing, over 2 months after the BBB Arbitration hearing, and over 150 messages and emails sent from the corvette owner to GM and BBB, he still has no resolve to get into a safe car without being unlawfully financially harmed, according to the corvette owners perspective and interpretation of the state's lemon law where the car was bought from originally, and this monetary deficit is still in the thousands, that the customer would have to pay.

He also gave GM and BBB very fair warning that he and several others, who all have potential Lemon Cases with GM, would be going public with his and the rest our stories, IF GM and BBB did not behave in accordance with the corvette owner's state's lemon law.

This post is simply to UNDO any wrongful advice I have personally given on this forum in the past, which MISTAKENLY POSITIVELY recommended the use of BBB for settling lemon law disputes. I was under the impression it was a great and fair service, but after reviewing and understanding what my friend is going through, I think it is time that these things BEGIN to be made public... and I say BEGIN... because THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING.

Some of our team has been to film school. Some of our team have very high powered lawyers at their disposal. And our team, are people who have come together, as we found that ALL of our corvettes have a problem which can result in ours and our passenger's deaths. This forum has been a powerful tool for us to find each other.

I have been waiting to see how things play out in other's cases around me, before I pull the trigger on my case, but I have a nearly identical case as this person who I have been writing about. I was going to use the BBB, but now I no longer will.

My advice if you have a problem with your car, WOULD be to get a lawyer, and if they indicate that you should take GM to state court, do it. GM has to pay your lawyer fees if you indeed have a lemon. But it is not that simple. You see, BBB and the manufacturers and the states have an agreement that you have to go through the BBB first. So, go through BBB, and if they dont give you a fair ruling, do NOT sign their paper that strips you of your rights to pursue the manufacturer for what compensation is required by state law to make you whole. You can back out of the BBB's service at any time.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to reach out, and I can try to help you not make any mistakes. But my best advice is, get a lawyer. Lord knows GM has one, and so far, from my perspective, they do not seem to be willing to play fair when people's lives are on the line and their product is at fault. And the kicker is, all parties from our lawyers, to GM's lawyers to the BBB are all in unanimous agreement, that the lemon cars in question, can kill their owners and passengers at any time due to a mysterious low fuel pressure malfunction, and yet, GM, its lawyers, and Tadge all apparently lack the IQ and/or work ethic to assist their dealerships to fix our before catastrophic failures occur and people are killed.

And with knowing there is a serious problem, they still want to play games and not take those people out of their unsafe cars with fair financial compensation as the law states they should

If the moderators would like evidence of this problem, the owner of the vehicle said he is happy to communicate. This is not a fake story. And I am not a troll.

We need to have each other's backs, and that's who I am, I have good people's backs. GM has no excuse to behave this way when they know a customer is stuck in a car that could kill people. IF it turns out that GM is indeed acting wrongfully, then they are literally breaking the law with customer's lives on the line. And in the meantime, this corvette owner and the rest of us with the same problem may have to wait until a year from now to get a state hearing, and he and the rest of us are left holding a car and a car payment and insurance payment, on a vehicle that we do not feel safe to drive. Luckily for he and I, our lemon states will pay "loss of use" so the price to RENT a z06, between now and a year from now, or the price to buy an additional z06 that is not a lemon, and pay that payment too, GM will most likely be ordered to pay these fees IF the judge finds that GM did NOT agree to pay what they should have, the first and second and third and fourth time around.

I hate to say it, but when this is done, don't be surprised if the documentaries that may be created that surround this whole deal, are not front page Jalopnik and also other media outlets. People who OWN Chevrolet car dealerships are involved and negatively affected by these lemon corvettes, and they are not happy with GM, and evidence is being gathered of just how far GM wants to try to push to avoid compensating people fairly as the state laws instruct, which instruct that the people can escape the flawed vehicles without having to come out of pocket thousands of dollars to do so.

I am now also likely going to take GM to state court for my car, which is also evidently a lemon, as it too has had an adequate number of failures and repair attempts by GM to qualify as such in the state it was purchased. I am glad I waited, my gut said to see how this pans out for the others who found the problem first, and luckily, I was not given the paper to sign first from BBB, as I may have been dumb enough to make the mistake of signing it and believing the BBB would give me a fair ruling on the taxes and fees afterward.

Mikec7z

Note, the items that will NOT be ruled upon. "Loss of wages and loss of use" is something BBB indicates they will NOT rule upon. Now that the corvette owner is most likely taking GM to state court, the loss of use and loss of wages, mental anguish, etc CAN be awarded to him in the state courts, as well as the triple damages on the SPREAD between what GM offered vs what the law says he is entitled to receive, to be made whole. So if GM short changed him 5 grand in their offer, they are going to be paying 15 grand, plus his lawyer fees, plus his "loss of use/wages/mental anguish claims"

There is a chance he also pursues the BBB themselves for not giving him a ruling and wasting his time, thus keeping him in an unsafe car for 3 extra months.

I will not be speaking any further on his case, unless GM does the right thing for him, otherwise, 1 year from now, public transcripts from the court hearing will be published here on the forum and in the 2nd episode of the soon to be released documentary about the hoops one has to jump through to get a broken corvette repaired these days.

Notice towards the bottom of "Florida page 4", it explains that a consumer MUST use the Arbitration Service, before taking GM to court, in this state and other states, if certain guidelines are met. This means manufacturers get to take a swing at people in, what appears to be, a confusing, non-fair ruling process, where the BBB encourages people to sign a vague agreement that strips the person of their rights to pursue the manufacturer in state court for what the law says should be awarded to keep a person from having to come out of pocket to do a veicle swap.

And in my opinion, IF all BBB arbitration cases are handled as this corvette customer's case has been, its no wonder the manufacturers prefer the BBB Arbitration Autoline Process. Imagine what several thousand dollars saved, per case, adds up to for the manufacturers, per year.... Its likely Millions of dollars once all combined and tallied

robertbruce

Takes to long to read.

cyi1

Need the TL: DR

Joshinator99

I’ll summarize:

BBB is, and has always been, in the pocket of the businesses. You know, the very same ones that directly pay the BBB and keep them in business. My advice for my fellow gearheads: when you see something or someone mention the BBB as a possible course of action, don’t walk away... run! They are not working in your best interest, but rather, the people who feed them money and promote them.

TrackAire

BBB = Conflict of Interest.
Never deal with them as they are nothing more than a marketing company for those that pay into their system. Nothing like having the fox watch the hen house.......

https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/30/new...ons/index.html

Mikec7z

perhaps you missed the part, that, by law, many manufacturers have agreements with the states that YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE BBB ARBITRATION FIRST, and this thread was a warning to people NOT to be foolish enough to sign the BBB's agreement, even if it seems the agreement is favorable, make sure it specifies all the warranties/taxes/fees/etc IN THE RULING, otherwise you are agreeing to forfeit all of that money.

You can go hire a lawyer at step one, but in many states, by law, you still have to go through BBB, its in your owners manual packet in the state's lemon booklet that you agree to arbitrate instead of go straight to state court as you pursue lemon law on your vehicle.

So your advice to NOT use the BBB is not applicable to reality. Customers have no choice.

Thank you.

BlueDevlZ06

Thanks for that info Mike. I personally have not had any issues with my Z other than 2 wheels out of spec (bent), but being able to get info well explained helps out others. Maybe a silly question but, would you or your friend get another Z06 after all the issues? I know with lemon law you get another one through GM but would you keep it or sell the new one and go another route?

Mikec7z

since we both have zero percent loans, we will both get new ones... as we inherit the same loan via a collateral exchange.

Our states also benefit the user more if they take the replacement car.

His is in NC, so NC has no mileage penalty for depreciation and says GM has to give an identical comparable vehicle.

This is why we aren't that mad, we just think GM is stupid. We win however they want to play their cards.

In addition, the 19's are more expensive cars apples to apples than the 16s which we have.

So we get upgraded.

If the next car has the same problem, so be it... Brilliant Tadge gets to buy another car back that he apparently can't fix, and we end up in c8's at that point.... with zero percent loans and no depreciation, and the z06's will be out by then and have the first year bugs out. And take a wild guess what happens if the C8 sucks and Tadge can't fix it?

As long as GM wants to be stupid, and not fix our cars, we are fine to get new ones and make fun of them about it the entire time. Its fine with us, because the law exponentially penalizes them the more they screw around, and thus rewards us. We have money to rent/buy other cars, and GM has to pay that back later on top of everything else.

When a person takes the cash money payout, they charge a mileage depreciation... and each state is different when that mileage starts... some are on the first failure of the bunch, some are on the last failure of the bunch... some are on the date when the person files the suit, etc.

NC is a great state to buy cars in, as is Maryland, and NH also I believe. The time frames vary state to state. NC you have 2 years, Maryland, same in SC, Same in FL.

And that's 2 years to have all the failures occur, and then still another year on top to file suit after that. So a person avoids 3 years of vehicle depreciation because GM is too dumb to fix their cars....

let alone fix the cars of 2 people who have a pretty large presence on this forum. Brilliant Choices GM... just one after another... so smart!

Mikec7z

oh, and then theres the triple damages and loss of use... by GM not offering what they should, and BBB not making a fair ruling potentially, then GM potentially ends up having to pay triple damage on the spread of what the NC judge orders... so if GM potentially shorted him 5 grand, he then would end up getting 15 grand instead, on top of what they were originally offering.

And its been 2500 dollars per week to rent a z06, or another 2000 bucks a month to buy a new one or lease one with insurance... so GM risks having to pay "loss of use" fees on top of the triple damages. Its NC Law.

Like any stupid corporation, they think always delaying payouts is always the best choice. They are about to cost themselves a lot of money for no reason.

They are so so so stupid.

And in the meantime, they win our free awesome publicity, and probably a documentary about how we end up with new cars because GM is too dumb to just do what we ask to fix the cars (we know how to fix the cars, GM won't do it)

And that probably leads them into a class action with the rest of you... all because GM is too dumb to fix their car or pay what the law says they should pay, according to my friends interpretation of the law, should he and his lawyers be correct.

Tadge is a SUPERSTAR!!!!

BlueDevlZ06

Lots of great info Mike. I'll be following this thread. Hope your next car is problem free.

galaxyblue69

I could have written this story. BBB Auto Line has been ignoring my emails and voicemails. It took two months for a ruling. I disagreed with the buy back offer, also wanting taxes and fees. I was told they sent it to arbitrator and now they are denying it. I have the emails, the documents uploaded,etc. Hyundai won’t call me back. My case has been ongoing since May 2023 and now it’s November.

They were audited and found they “overlooked” further requests to pursue the case further.

If you find any recourse against the BBB, let me know.

Whisky

If the BBB referred to in this post has anything to do with the Better Business Bereau, good luck. BBB is nothing more than a business sponsored group.
Anyone can join the BBB as long as they pay the fee.