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ZR1: A superhero, yes...a legend, no. ZR1=Identity Crisis

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Old 12-06-2017, 07:50 PM   #61
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Let me also add in a separate post that, while I'm no PARTICULAR fan of the ZR1 variant specifically, I AM indeed a fan of the C7 chassis. I'm also a HUGE fan of the possibility that the ZR1 could be the first American car to do 6's at the RING. I'm an avid supporter of the marketing opportunity that ZR1 brings, if GM supports that marketing effort. I'd like to see the ZR1 break track records and unseat some of what ACR left in its wake. I'm ALL for that to happen.

My perfect turnkey Corvette may not have been sold, but I still will purchase and modify the platform. There still is NO bang for the buck like a Corvette...period. I also hope that growing enthusiasm for track accomplishments eventually makes enough of the proper demographic exist that one day GM DOES build the GT3RS of Corvettes....I don't care if it has a damn AC electric motor in it quite frankly.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:55 PM   #62
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You are free to post a thread here telling us how you dislike the new car. I am free to post that your thread sucks.
Indeed, you have the right to disagree, but not in a fashion that implies I am unwelcome, that's for damn sure. I've got more skin in the Corvette game than many, and I don't mean just by writing checks for cars, I mean creating events, attending shows, talking with engineers, attending races, donating to the museum, leading new buyers, developing new to market parts for the platform (currently as we speak), etc.

I don't have to like the ZR1. I like what marketing value it has. I like what perception it will bring to the youth sector and what potential "dreamcar" status it could instill in kids to become future Corvette buyers. I don't have to BUY it, nor do I have to aesthetically like it...but I can tell you this much, I'll be here when your gone mostlikely, and I dont' even need to know you to be pretty confident of that.

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Old 12-06-2017, 09:29 PM   #63
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OP, I enjoy reading your posts on the zr1; passionate, knowledgeable, and articulate.
That's not to say that I entirely agree with you -- the GS is the last c7 I'd buy, for example. But I totally get where you are coming from.
However, allow me to play devil's advocate. What if the zr1 ends up being faster (say, around the 'ring) than the "legacy" cars you refer to? You don't have to buy it with a ragtop and auto; you can buy a coupe with an m7. Would you not be satisfied? Or is it the case that -- even if it is the fastest production car around -- the fact that it could have been faster makes it a disappointment? (Every car could have been faster, of course.)
Because here's the thing: GM appears to have built an amazing car that might very well kick virtually every car's *** on the track AND you can get a vert with an auto trans and drive it to work if you want to -- for ~120k. Are you not going to buy the fastest car around because vert is an option and the wing could have been bigger? There's a sense in which the c7, generally, and the zr1, in particular, are giving us the best of both worlds -- and that's an amazing accomplishment. I think that you are focusing too much on what the zr1 is not, rather than on what it is. That seems to be the corvette curse, however.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:01 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JG853 View Post
Sean -

What is the difference in downforce between your ACR Extreme and the big aero from the ZR1?
I think there is about a 600# delta. But those are at ~150 mph speeds, which we seldom see or where DF isn't really an issue. As I recall the ACR-E is around 1500#. I don't need big DF on the back straight at Sebring or at Daytona.
I'm curious what the mid-speed numbers are...around 80-120 mph.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:33 PM   #65
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Again with setting your expectations: there won't be a Z06X built and sold through Chevrolet dealers. Certainly not during the C7 run. Tadge addressed this during a dinner in Monterey this past summer the night before the Leguna Seca race (I was at the dinner). Someone asked him specifically about a car that could be the "GT3RS of Corvettes" and he basically said: no one would actually buy it. Everyone talks about it, but no one would actually sign on the dotted line to buy it.
History indicates that the ("I DEMAND a stripped-down, hard-core, track-focused car for REAL DRIVERS like me")/(actual buyers) ratio is at least 30,000:1. Dodge whoops SRT whoops Dodge fell for it with the Viper, fixed-roof only, no convertible, because they had to placate the "real drivers" first. Keyboard Kommandos everywhere howled in delight, applauded fervently, and stayed away in droves.

Had Viper been convertible, I'd have somehow afforded one and would be driving it now. Instead, Chevy sensibly gave real customers real choices, so my Z06 Convertible (the mere existence of which somehow "devalues" the coupe, by voodoo or something, I've never figured this one out) has been offending track snobs for 51,000 miles of daily driving. Everybody else loves it. The exhaust bark by itself is worth the entire payment. I've gotten hundreds of compliments and offers to trade cars, with never a mention of "orange peel" or "heat soak" or any of the other pseudo-problems that people here worry themselves sick about.

The only possible replacement would be a ZR1 convertible, but that's out of the question at sticker price. When discounts hit, I'll be so happy to infuriate the "track-focused" crew some more with an even louder obnoxious exhaust that I can actually hear with the roof down.

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Old 12-06-2017, 11:49 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by HolyRoller View Post
History indicates that the ("I DEMAND a stripped-down, hard-core, track-focused car for REAL DRIVERS like me")/(actual buyers) ratio is at least 30,000:1. Dodge whoops SRT whoops Dodge fell for it with the Viper, fixed-roof only, no convertible, because they had to placate the "real drivers" first. Keyboard Kommandos everywhere howled in delight, applauded fervently, and stayed away in droves.

Had Viper been convertible, I'd have somehow afforded one and would be driving it now. Instead, Chevy sensibly gave real customers real choices, so my Z06 Convertible (the mere existence of which somehow "devalues" the coupe, by voodoo or something, I've never figured this one out) has been offending track snobs for 51,000 miles of daily driving. Everybody else loves it. The exhaust bark by itself is worth the entire payment. I've gotten hundreds of compliments and offers to trade cars, with never a mention of "orange peel" or "heat soak" or any of the other pseudo-problems that people here worry themselves sick about.

The only possible replacement would be a ZR1 convertible, but that's out of the question at sticker price. When discounts hit, I'll be so happy to infuriate the "track-focused" crew some more with an even louder obnoxious exhaust that I can actually hear with the roof down.
This...times 10.
Great post, and it very much captures why Viper failed and why GM will carefully contemplate how they offer C7 variants.
The Viper is a great car. The ACR even better. For a very, very small slice of enthusiasts. And that slice wasn't big enough to keep the car alive.
S.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:50 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by K.I.T.T. View Post
Indeed, you have the right to disagree, but not in a fashion that implies I am unwelcome, that's for damn sure. I've got more skin in the Corvette game than many, and I don't mean just by writing checks for cars, I mean creating events, attending shows, talking with engineers, attending races, donating to the museum, leading new buyers, developing new to market parts for the platform (currently as we speak), etc.

I don't have to like the ZR1. I like what marketing value it has. I like what perception it will bring to the youth sector and what potential "dreamcar" status it could instill in kids to become future Corvette buyers. I don't have to BUY it, nor do I have to aesthetically like it...but I can tell you this much, I'll be here when your gone mostlikely, and I dont' even need to know you to be pretty confident of that.
What skin? Do you even have a Corvette?
I see 6 months ago you were looking at a GS?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:34 AM   #68
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I tend to agree with the OP - the ZR1 introduction left me a bit underwhelmed. This is a car that appears to have been created primarily to fix the design deficiencies (cooling, track-ability) of the Z06. Yes it will set a new benchmark for corvette performance, but there is nothing inspiring about the engineering - it's just a Z06 on more steroids. I have yet to see it in person, but it looks too busy from a styling perspective. The Z06 was on the precipice of this and with the new front end and spoiler, the design language and styling of this car is muddled.

It would have been great if GM had instead introduced a mid-model refresh of the Z06 using some of the cooling and aero changes of the ZR1 (a bit more subdued) and created something a bit more unique and divergent in the ZR1. My wish list - active aero instead of a giant fixed wing, more extensive use of composites (CF rims, additional CF body panels) and low mass metals (e.g. Titanium exhaust), and a DOHC motor. They could have created a lower mass car that would be even more enjoyable to drive and possibly just as fast on the track as the supercharged LT5 (lower mass = lower HP needed for same power:weight).

I get that some are very enamored with this car due to the HP superiority and status as the new king of the hill. That's fine and I'm sure the car will be a blast to drive. However adding more HP does not always make for a more enjoyable driving experience - drive a 1st gen NSX or F355. Both are subjectively more satisfying to drive than a current Z06 in many ways and yet they would get smoked by the Z06 in any quantitative metrics of performance.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:55 AM   #69
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Thanks Sean -

I am ordering the Big Aero and I thought the delta was a bit less, but that is significant.

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I think there is about a 600# delta. But those are at ~150 mph speeds, which we seldom see or where DF isn't really an issue. As I recall the ACR-E is around 1500#. I don't need big DF on the back straight at Sebring or at Daytona.
I'm curious what the mid-speed numbers are...around 80-120 mph.
S.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:02 AM   #70
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He sounds like a respectable member of the forum, unlike yourself.
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What skin? Do you even have a Corvette?
I see 6 months ago you were looking at a GS?
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:04 AM   #71
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I tend to agree with the OP - the ZR1 introduction left me a bit underwhelmed. This is a car that appears to have been created primarily to fix the design deficiencies (cooling, track-ability) of the Z06. Yes it will set a new benchmark for corvette performance, but there is nothing inspiring about the engineering - it's just a Z06 on more steroids. I have yet to see it in person, but it looks too busy from a styling perspective. The Z06 was on the precipice of this and with the new front end and spoiler, the design language and styling of this car is muddled.

It would have been great if GM had instead introduced a mid-model refresh of the Z06 using some of the cooling and aero changes of the ZR1 (a bit more subdued) and created something a bit more unique and divergent in the ZR1. My wish list - active aero instead of a giant fixed wing, more extensive use of composites (CF rims, additional CF body panels) and low mass metals (e.g. Titanium exhaust), and a DOHC motor. They could have created a lower mass car that would be even more enjoyable to drive and possibly just as fast on the track as the supercharged LT5 (lower mass = lower HP needed for same power:weight).

I get that some are very enamored with this car due to the HP superiority and status as the new king of the hill. That's fine and I'm sure the car will be a blast to drive. However adding more HP does not always make for a more enjoyable driving experience - drive a 1st gen NSX or F355. Both are subjectively more satisfying to drive than a current Z06 in many ways and yet they would get smoked by the Z06 in any quantitative metrics of performance.


You and the O.P. are "underwhelmed" by the C7 ZR1? Really? What new offering are you then overwhelmed with at anywhere close to the ZR1's price?
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:55 AM   #72
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I understand where the OP is coming from, but this isnít the Porsche ď crowdĒ that will pay TWICE as much for a comparable corvette. Yes there are some vette junkies who also own Porsches and might spring for a very limited edition ZR1 RS, but itís not worth the gamble. I mean just look at the tons of super cheapskates on here hypermiling their Stingray or who agonize on running off to Samís club for a sale on motor oil, before god forbid they might have to pay a dealer for the retail price of oil. You think one of those el cheapos would EVER pony up for a special edition anything corvette ? Of course not. Heck Tadge said he was worried if enough of those that can afford a new ZR1 ( that many have been pushing hard for) will actually open their wallet for the upgrade over the Z06.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:33 PM   #73
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I understand where the OP is coming from, but this isnít the Porsche ď crowdĒ that will pay TWICE as much for a comparable corvette. Yes there are some vette junkies who also own Porsches and might spring for a very limited edition ZR1 RS, but itís not worth the gamble. I mean just look at the tons of super cheapskates on here hypermiling their Stingray or who agonize on running off to Samís club for a sale on motor oil, before god forbid they might have to pay a dealer for the retail price of oil. You think one of those el cheapos would EVER pony up for a special edition anything corvette ? Of course not. Heck Tadge said he was worried if enough of those that can afford a new ZR1 ( that many have been pushing hard for) will actually open their wallet for the upgrade over the Z06.
Thatís a good point but this car was never going to appeal to that market segment. I for one would be more likely to open my wallet if there was more engineering innovation and Iím a dyed in the wool corvette guy. GM should have been looking to expand itís market with the ZR1 by attracting more of the Porsche owner market instead of potentially cannibalizing the Z06 market.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:54 PM   #74
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Thatís a good point but this car was never going to appeal to that market segment. I for one would be more likely to open my wallet if there was more engineering innovation and Iím a dyed in the wool corvette guy. GM should have been looking to expand itís market with the ZR1 by attracting more of the Porsche owner market instead of potentially cannibalizing the Z06 market.
Iím a dyed in the wool vette junkie ( on my ninth vette) and had a new 996TT for 5 years while owning a 2006 C6 LPE maggie supercharged at the same time. Trying to reel in Porsche buyers for a ď Blue CollarĒ vette is a tough nut to crack. One of the big draws ( if not the biggest draw for many ) for owning a Porsche, is to run around putting oneís nose in the air.
A vette doesnít allow them to do that ( in their mind). All around car enthusiasts like all brands and can see the huge value in corvettes. Porsche snobs are convinced all vettes give off a bad smell. Their loss.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:56 PM   #75
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I had a 996TT and now have a 997TT. Also have 1st gen NSX. Extended family has a C1, C2, C4 ZR1, and C6 ZR1. I love cars of all types, especially corvettes. I agree with you on the P-crowd to some extent but I've seen quite a few make the jump from 911 (even some TTs), Cayman, Boxer to C7 or C7Z06.

It's a tall order to create a platform that appeals to "well-healed blue collar" sorts and those who would prefer to be identified as a "well-healed white collar" sort, despite the success of the C7 platform. I understand that. Perhaps I am in the minority but I just wanted to see something less derivative in the new ZR1. I would have paid another ~ 20K over the current MSRP for such a car.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:12 PM   #76
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I had a 996TT and now have a 997TT. Also have 1st gen NSX. Extended family has a C1, C2, C4 ZR1, and C6 ZR1. I love cars of all types, especially corvettes. I agree with you on the P-crowd to some extent but I've seen quite a few make the jump from 911 (even some TTs), Cayman, Boxer to C7 or C7Z06.

It's a tall order to create a platform that appeals to "well-healed blue collar" sorts and those who would prefer to be identified as a "well-healed white collar" sort, despite the success of the C7 platform. I understand that. Perhaps I am in the minority but I just wanted to see something less derivative in the new ZR1. I would have paid another ~ 20K over the current MSRP for such a car.
Tadge grew up around Porsches ( his old man was a Porsche enthusiast) as did I ( my old man was an all around car guy who owned a 1961 super 90 roadster and a new 1965 356 SC that I got to drive around as well as a 1963 chevy super sport with a 409 engine). I get the Porsche appeal, but as the years have gone by and finally the quantum leap forward of the C7 and double the price for competitive Porsches, the corvette now is something Porsche buyers are taking a second look at. Some will make the move over, but I think Tadge and other GM decision makers were not confident that enough Porsche or Corvette fans would spend even MORE money for a ZR1 RS type product over the ZR1 they just came out with.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:28 PM   #77
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it would have a true super-car if it had the ''merc DOHC'' engine,and a real show of whats in the future for corvette
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Old 12-08-2017, 03:14 PM   #78
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He sounds like a respectable member of the forum, unlike yourself.
Well he was saying he has more in the skin the game than RICK. Which is not close to true. Plus Guys that are all hat and no cattle get your respect?
maybe it takes on e to know one.
Oh like you add anything to this place. I have been here for years and earned my place. I support the forum bought many cars and tons of parts here. The forum is really here for those people.
Maybe name 1 way you support the forum. Have you EVER bought 1 single car part or a car from a forum vendor?

I try to buy all my Corvette stuff HERE how about YOU? I likely average 3,000 a month here.



Without the MEMBERS buying parts and cars from the vendors supporting them this place would not even be here.






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Old 12-08-2017, 05:12 PM   #79
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Oh boy, get the tape measures out.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:20 PM   #80
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This...times 10.
Great post, and it very much captures why Viper failed and why GM will carefully contemplate how they offer C7 variants.
The Viper is a great car. The ACR even better. For a very, very small slice of enthusiasts. And that slice wasn't big enough to keep the car alive.
S.
I think this is all apples to oranges with the ACR though. FCA....Dodge...SRT...whoever they are tomorrow...didn't have the buyer base to support such a car, quite correct. Viper really "embraced" the idea that the car was raw, because quite frankly, in it's early iterations it was like...kit car raw. So, if you can't beat'em, join'em and say "it's a drivers car...raw, unrefined, etc".

Corvette has the buyer base to absorb an endeavor similar...to a point. Now again, I don't know the internal numbers, and quite frankly GM could be as fragile as FCA but is playing their cards very carefully...I suspect this is the case.

My point is, as the Viper heads out, in my opinion the one thing that will insure its likely return one day, is ACR. Viper may not have much of a legacy, but it does have this "rep" that has value...with the proper partner (VW group...yikes)...the ACR could return with a vengeance by diving in the parts bin of a serious company. Ferrari could be that company if FCA could find some legs.

I personally did track time in the LFA prototype back in 2010. Car was a pre-production mule and I ran the car at Monticello. That car was a loss project, but Toyota did it as a true HALO and as a legacy builder. People can debate the car itself, but I'm referring to the actual exercise of building it and what it does for a brand.

I believe the GrandSport is a great foot forward for C7...if GM could find a way to sharpen that car a little further, in an affordable manner and simply market it as the "driver car" or a nod to the purists, I think it becomes a safe proposition and an affordable one. Moreover though, I think GM owes it to it's own legacy to have that car. Porsche 911T...great example...basically the specs of a C5Z...not super powerful, but manual box, lightweight...a pure parts bin car with a few twists thrown in.
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