Poor-sha

Seriously. Even the "meager" C7 Z06 will mop the floor of nearly every car at the track assuming a good driver. I'm not the best driver but I don't give many point-bys. In fact, as I think back on the few cars I've pointed by it's:

- Viper ACR
- Porsche 911 Cup car
- Radical

Those are also only when you have very good drivers as I've passed more than a few Radicals and ACRs with less than great drivers. In most cases even with the good drivers its been close in performance. With the added performance of the ZR1 it should be no contest and frankly you're going to spend most of your track days just tooling along behind slower cars waiting to get by.

Racingswh

The C7Z06 is one of the very, very best, very fastest cars in the world on a U.S. road course track. For the skilled Driver if super quick lap times are what you're looking for as you mention there aren't many other choices.

Accessing the performance of any of the cars in question when you're talking about cars at this level isn't all that easy. Quite frankly, of active Driver's that have a C7Z06, based on searches that I have done you are one of a select few Driver's that can and regularly do.

Combine your skills with the ZR1 and I think we will see even more magic happen.

It's been asked "Is it overpriced" and I take that to mean does the extra performance warrant the higher price tag over a Z06? I am in "wait and see" mode. No one can say definitively yet.

I can tell you that more power does not necessarily equate to better lap times. It will probably come from the aero in much the same way the added aero on the ACR-E's help them put down quicker times.

I know that you have had one, and may still I just forget, that out of the box is very, very quick in a straight line. Nearly mid 10's in the 1/4 as I recall? They are are so wonderful. As you know though they are not necessarily road course track weapons. They make amazing GT cars.

I have A LOT of seat time in Porsche's. Laughing good times in GT3RS's, Cup Cars, Turbo's, GT4's and even sideways in a Cayenne with a 19 yr old girl at the wheel. Part of the deal when you have owned and are surrounded by Porsche's in the PCA DE program for the past 16 years.

I don't have one now very simply because the ones I can afford are not fast enough when using cars the way I/We do. When I see the one I want it's always Corey Friedman in his RSR.

I think to myself "I will take that one" so I head on over to Rennlist to make my purchase . Wait?? What?? 449k for the one I want? C'mon? Just like that my visions of total track annihilation while piloting a Porsche fade away.

My ACR-E is fast enough AND it has a warranty. It's literally the CHEAPEST track car I have ever owned and not by a small amount. Minimal depreciation and when there's anything wrong with it I take it to the dealer. No kidding.

That's what makes this new ZR1 so appealing as well and as you have said a number of times now it will be a FAR BETTER car on the street than the ACR. Right now my ACR is in a inside my trailer which is INSIDE the shop with many cars and another trailer in front of it and I don't care. The last thing I ever want to do is drive that car on the street.

This ZR1 will be quite different I expect. Incredibly quick on the track, also covered by a warranty AND I may even want to keep it at my house so I can drive it once in awhile.

JerriVette

For those with z06 s ..of course selling and buying the zr1 makes no sense...

Yet

Some z06 owners will sell their z06 s so they can buy the latest and greatest which is the zr1....

For those that don't want to sell and buy their zr1 ..makes sense to many of us...

For those that go for the new zr1 big props too...

Both great cars...

jvp

I actually hate being the fastest guy on the track and prefer there to be someone faster. There's so much more to learn that way, and I see it as an interesting internal challenge to see if I can wear the faster guy down and get a point-by by the end of the session. If I can't get the point-by, it's even better. It means I still have more to learn.

hcvone

You forgot to add some owners may keep their Z06 and add a ZR1, I know 3 already.

rob62

If you have the means and the room, why not.

JG853

Sean -

What is the difference in downforce between your ACR Extreme and the big aero from the ZR1?

JerriVette

Sounds like a good plan carl...how are things in Pa? Hope all is well

KnightDriveTV

Having built cars with power in the 4 figures, owned mid-engines, exotics, and well over 100 different cars personally, 7 Corvettes of 4 generations, not including my business, I am not surprised we feel differently.

There comes a time where you start to find the sweet spot. For some...say guys who drag race, they may start by desiring to go the fastest possible, but then you see guys step away from the full tube chassis and want to run a street class on a street tire. This is because they start to hone in on what they truly like.

For guys who buy a weekend sports car or weekend track car...in Murica...again, people here usually want the biggest, baddest, fastest, loudest, etc.

When you spend a life tuning, building and owning things from various platforms, you develop a pallet, much like touring the world and eating foods...you start to realize that what you once believed was "all the marbles" sometimes isn't.

I have news for everyone...you'll never be the FASTEST, the BEST, the anything. I have owned cars with over 1000hp that I drove on the street, and I've owned cars with 220hp that were frankly more fun to drive.

It's simple...as you get older, you start to hone in on what you really like, and thats the result of experience. I don't need a horsepower badge on the fender, nor do I need a 0-60 stat to make me feel confident about myself. Some people go to an HPDE to WIN...but you're driving against yourself. Frankly, going to an HPDE and pushing yourself in a slower car is a hell of a lot more fun than dealing with traffic the entire time.

I feel that the C5 Z06 hit a level of balance and purity, that when slightly modified makes it one of the absolute best cars to buy for HPDE. It's got plenty of power, plenty of tire, plenty of capability. Look at the Porsche 911T that has recently debuted for the "purist" and check the stats of that car...quite interesting:

3280lbs, 0-60 4.2 or so sec, manual, 370hp. This is a car that has plenty of power, plenty of ability...you're not running with the Miata's, but your not running with the blowhards either.



In the end, I DO see one possibility. The GM parts bin, once the ZR1 releases, is only missing ONE thing to make the ultimate C7...an engine. It's one 560-650hp NA engine away from being able to create a parts bin Z06x. Add in some lightweight panels, the ZR1 body, and a motor that is developed and certified for the ME car and you've got a Z06x straight off the shelf. I put LSx motors in mid-engine cars plenty of times...a modular intake mani and a different accessory drive. Put in some of the spool valve dampers, maybe a few new tricks and it's still possible.

I'll keep my hopes alive.


As for one or more saying I need a Prius, or that I'm this or that....sorry your inadequacies as a person makes you insult people you don't know anything about, to feel better about yourself as a "car enthusiast". I'm pretty confident my history as a car builder, enthusiast, show promoter, former manufacturer and aftermarket provider would show I'm on pretty solid ground versus most, when it comes to the performance car realm.

KnightDriveTV

To be clear, you represent the 1% of Z06 ownership and how much you've tracked your car. In addition, you ask a guy who's life long F1 guy and he will tell you it's the best. You ask a guy in rally, he'll disagree. You talk to a guy in baja, he'll tell you they're all wrong.

To each his own. You like Corvette (as do I...I owned 2 racecars with history, and tracked all my street cars) and that's good. If you're excited about ZR1, I'm not saying you shouldn't be. I didn't say the ZR1 won't be a track slayer that'll slay all.

All I'm saying is, for some, it's not about being the "winner" of the HPDE. You can shave time from you personal best whether it's in a Miata or an SLC. Both have their own challenges, but in my experience with HPDE guys, hp masks ability, when they are in the garage talking lap times.

As I said though...you're in a very small percentile given the amount of track miles you have on C7's and that's great. Only thing that mildly surprises me, is that you don't want that true Z06X versus this jack of all trades.

jvp

Sean would want it, but I think he understands the reality: it isn't going to be built.

I understand that reality as well. Again with setting your expectations: there won't be a Z06X built and sold through Chevrolet dealers. Certainly not during the C7 run. Tadge addressed this during a dinner in Monterey this past summer the night before the Leguna Seca race (I was at the dinner). Someone asked him specifically about a car that could be the "GT3RS of Corvettes" and he basically said: no one would actually buy it. Everyone talks about it, but no one would actually sign on the dotted line to buy it.

He was using hyperbole to emphasize a point: there wouldn't be enough customers to justify the work involved to engineer, test, validate, and then market the car. Further, as he stated at the beginning of the C7 run: they're not going to be doing anymore NA high-HP engines. The emissions noose is just too tight around their neck.

Supercharging is here for the rest of C7. You have to accept that, or look to another manufacturer.

KnightDriveTV

I think your statement and conclusion here is 99% accurate. The 1% factor is, if you immediately announce something as "limited production" and put a collector label on it from the outset, then parts bin build the car, you CAN INDEED build the GT3RS of Corvette.

If the ME effort allows SAE cert of a 5.5 liter and a 6.2, that opens the possibility that the engineering costs, from an engine perspective could be shouldered. Sure, you have durability and all the development investment, I get that.

My deal is though JVP, you have to consider, from a marketing perspective that you're selling this racing legacy and you have to put out a car for the purists to salivate over. You do a limited 500 production run, marketed, even the old boys who won't drive it will buy it if they feel it's a "club"...this goes direct to the mentality of the current day senior citizen.

That said, I'm not here to debate you, Tadge or anyone else...Tadge certainly knows more about the internal challenges of getting GM to fund Corvette alone, much less some niche version. This is a forum though, not of factoids, but of opinion. We are all supposedly enthusiasts and supporters of a brand. As customers, Corvette exists because of us, and no one else and we should have a right to hold a particular opinion and voice when we feel a product is needed. If NO ONE would buy a Z06x, then what did they build the concept for, to begin with? Seems some are quick to say "there's the door". Sometimes you have to watch what you wish for.

I go to the races all the time....I have a BBS centerlock C6R wheel from the 2011 Leman #63 car, that wrecked coming out of Porsche curves, sitting at my feet as I type this (has thick glass over top). I sit in the tents at the races and wonder who they are going to put in these tents in 10yrs. Petit looked like a retirement community cafeteria, as always. No offense to the old guys who love the races...but, there's gotta be the other side. Sometimes you have to roll the dice and build something for the people that STIRS them and gains you 30 more years of buyers. A convertible muscle car with a hood shaker, slushbox and a wing...I'm sorry but...I don't wtf that thing is. I hope they sell a lot of them though, so maybe GM will fund something for the legacy.

Legacy is important...the Grand Sport is a win because it really speaks to that legacy...manual gearbox, nice iconic paint scheme, great reviews and driving characteristics...that's a great car. Now sharpen that car and build an icon for the era.

Just my opinion...and yes JVP, I know...you disagree. You'll have to excuse "the worthless mush between my ears" as I saw you tell someone else in another thread....lol.

The biggest difference is simple. Porsche is a sports car manufacturer, first and foremost. In this world, they have executed the mass production of a sports car and made it work. GM is a truck/econobox/necessity brand that builds a sports car offering. Corvette does their best, as does GM...I get it. We are allowed to want to WIN. Beating Porsche at an HPDE is a battle. Beating Porsche in legacy and global recognition is the WAR and Corvette is like North Korea in this one....let's be real.

jvp

But you can't just "do" that within the confines of GM. You have to be able to sell it, and if this "limited production" car is truly limited, the price tag skyrockets way past the ZR1's. How many are going to sign up for a 150K++ base price on the car? Answer: not 500.

So you think these engines are going to be N/A, if they're actually real? I don't. In fact I'd put a strong wager on them being forced induction of some variety. And not really setup for the C7, either.

Like it or hate it, that's not how GM does business with/for the Corvette.

I'd be careful reading too much into concepts you see at places like SEMA. That's not to say they won't mature into a product, but the likelihood is pretty slim in a lot of cases.

It's not a case of "agreeing vs disagreeing". It's more a case of understanding the realities of the Corvette's current business. There are very, very vocal folks who make up a teeny minority of the actual buying population of the car. And when that teeny minority is presented with the true price tag of the thing they're so vocal over, they're no longer as vocal. With that, GM isn't going to spend any of their cycles validating a car that no one is going to buy.

JG853

While I agree - There is one more point to add -

GM's finance team will determine their budget to build. They use a number of professional services firms to perform your standard public company audit and tax services, but they also get spend a large amount of money on different consulting areas.

In the end, the true budget determines how far they can go and they do all kinds of pricing effectiveness to forecast their demand.

KnightDriveTV

Well, unless you have the specific data to suggest that, I'd say that's yet to be determined. 911R sold handily at 190k msrp that got hyper inflated and sell beyond 600k at this point. Granted that's "apples to oranges" in some ways. Fact is though, it was a parts bin car that scratched a very particular itch for the sake of marketing and legacy. They, granted, have the budget and the parts bin to do it with 20+ models. Clearly though, this is GM's focus...to essentially follow that recipe. So calling it impossible is a stretch. I'm not saying your wrong...clearly that's why it hasn't happened. I'm just saying, we see manufacturers build cars they take a loss on all the time, for the sake of development, legacy, marketing, etc.


I don't necessarily think that, but we still haven't seen a 4 valve head engine arise. Pentroof chambers, DI, some variable tech, can give you an engine that would likely meet emissions targets that a 2 valve wouldn't single cam wouldn't. Being able to alter lobe separation angles at will, or vary intake mani length, while running less ignition timing, more efficient quench, etc. makes me think an NA engine will remain.

I could also theorize this is an engine we'd see trickle to a lot of other platforms. I'm not so sure GM has a desire to follow Ford with a forced induction lineup "all-in". Again, I'm not internal in GM looking at their data, figures, market analysis either. I'm just saying...I feel theoretically a motor may still surface. If you have info to the contrary, what's the harm in saying so.


Well, Blockbuster took a stand on how they chose to do business...as did Zayres, Saturn, Atari and a bunch of others. Just because a current line of thinking wins the day, doesn't mean disruption and re-assessment won't take the brand to a new level. I'm sure you have a lot of old naysayers in GM that keep that from being likely possible...which is why I'm also sure YOU'RE so sure it won't happen. Big businesses are disrupted for tunnel vision, that's all I'm saying.

Granted...it's a marketing game and it served some purpose I'm sure, not necessarily as a preview.

I'd be inclined to blank check agree with you, but I also read a statement Tadge made, that said roughly that, if this "niche" of enthusiasts were buying or wanting so many cars, they'd be selling more Z07's vs non, and I feel strongly that is a blatantly false parameter of analysis.

"Track guys" are buying all variants, as can be seen in the track times thread. "Track guys" simply buy Z06's or GrandSports, even Z51's...of all equipped levels. Fact is, even the majority of track guys, who bought the car with the intent of tracking it, still will drive the car on the street. So, for that matter, given the options currently available they likely buy the Z06/GS with the best deal, a mix of interior options, etc. The Z07 option is a showboat/repeat buyer option in my book...most track guys aren't buying that car. Those carbons, as a consumable, are horrifically expensive, as is the car itself once the dealer gets hold of it.

My point is, I'd be curious to know the REAL parameters in which they assess who these buyers are, because based upon that statement, I question the perspective.


Point is, the GrandSport...in my opinion, great C7. Legacy, offered the original paint scheme which C6 did not (mistake in my opinion)...did good for the car. I think, across all levels of mainstream media, maybe even Tadge himself...that's the best C7 to date. I personally don't think this ZR1 will change that.

I question the possibility of just sharpening that GrandSport and repackaging it as a GrandSport RS (better yet, GrandSport Zora Edition!), or something of that nature. Bump the GrandSport even 30hp (i assume this could provoke a recert but again...it's a risk assessment factor), try to get a little weight out of the car, restrict the interior options to that which makes the numbers work. Implement that recipe that somewhat inspired the C5Z originally. Nothing over the top, just sharpen it.

Again JVP, my disclaimer...no need to call me a moron, I'm admittedly very stupid and far below your level of involvement, experience and knowledge, I admit that. I'm like the Forest Gump of the car world.

Racingswh

That car wouldn't do it for me as my main track car. I personally am not a fan of driving slow cars fast all the time. I happen to like to know that I can drive fast cars fast. I do that for me, not anyone else. I enjoy it. I find driving cars with moderate pace easier to do and less satisfying.

I do agree that being in a car that's in the mix with other cars can be a lot of fun and I happen to do it often. However it never fills me with the level of personal satisfaction that reaching a lap time milestone does in a fast car.

I am certain Sean (Poorsha) would agree? When he eclipsed 2:00 at VIR in his old C7Z that was quite an accomplishment. When he went 1:57 in his current car he was very pleased as shown by his in car reaction. Same happened to me this season when I went Sub 2 at Watkins Glen for the first time. Something about achieving that was very satisfying. If my performance/talent is masked or provided a crutch by the HP of my cars I am ok with that. I am happy that I still have room to grow as a Driver and I can get even faster.

Fortunately for all of us here there are many different Manufacturer's and models to choose from that allow us to hone in on what we really enjoy and appreciate.

I hope this new ZR1 has had any issues it may have had during development resolved. I still want to see the car in person as there are points that I wish looked a little different. I commend GM for the risks they have taken with this new ZR1. I expect there will be quite a few very satisfied new owners.

KnightDriveTV

^Such a great representation of the Corvette community.

To enlighten you I had a Lambo, Ferrari's, a Porsche 993 and I drove my Corvette the most so...ya know...I'm pretty sure I'm here because I want to be pal. I don't have to love everything they build. Kind of blows my mind that I clearly praise the GrandSport offering, but yet you felt compelled to tell me to hit the door. Ridiculous.

KnightDriveTV

That's all great. What works for one, doesn't have to work for all...so I thought.

KnightDriveTV

Let me also add in a separate post that, while I'm no PARTICULAR fan of the ZR1 variant specifically, I AM indeed a fan of the C7 chassis. I'm also a HUGE fan of the possibility that the ZR1 could be the first American car to do 6's at the RING. I'm an avid supporter of the marketing opportunity that ZR1 brings, if GM supports that marketing effort. I'd like to see the ZR1 break track records and unseat some of what ACR left in its wake. I'm ALL for that to happen.

My perfect turnkey Corvette may not have been sold, but I still will purchase and modify the platform. There still is NO bang for the buck like a Corvette...period. I also hope that growing enthusiasm for track accomplishments eventually makes enough of the proper demographic exist that one day GM DOES build the GT3RS of Corvettes....I don't care if it has a damn AC electric motor in it quite frankly.

KnightDriveTV

Indeed, you have the right to disagree, but not in a fashion that implies I am unwelcome, that's for damn sure. I've got more skin in the Corvette game than many, and I don't mean just by writing checks for cars, I mean creating events, attending shows, talking with engineers, attending races, donating to the museum, leading new buyers, developing new to market parts for the platform (currently as we speak), etc.

I don't have to like the ZR1. I like what marketing value it has. I like what perception it will bring to the youth sector and what potential "dreamcar" status it could instill in kids to become future Corvette buyers. I don't have to BUY it, nor do I have to aesthetically like it...but I can tell you this much, I'll be here when your gone mostlikely, and I dont' even need to know you to be pretty confident of that.