When Titans Collide: The GT2 RS vs the 2019 ZR1
01-09-2018, 09:26 PM
#341
I read that too but I wasn't sure. I didn't want the noise here. I think the GT2 only gets 300 lbs (please not sure).
That's the ticket with USA smarts! It's hard to get any time on the curves. That wing (if it's true) will kill them! GM knows for many years what those wings can do from racing. The combo of aero knowledge GM will show the world who wears the shoes on this planet!
That's the ticket with USA smarts! It's hard to get any time on the curves. That wing (if it's true) will kill them! GM knows for many years what those wings can do from racing. The combo of aero knowledge GM will show the world who wears the shoes on this planet!
The GT2RS will have no problem outrunning the ZR1 in a straight line. Just like the lower level 991's dispatching Corvettes despite having a marked power disadvantage, the GT2RS should be a car that traps 135-138mph. The ZR1 is not going to be doing that IMO. Also, the GT2RS produces about the same amount of downforce as the ZR1 at similar speeds.
Porsche underrates their engines, they are better geared for top speed acceleration, and the 991 has much cleaner aero than the C7. Even with a manual, the 450hp 991 GTS traps 123mph vs 117-118mph for a 460hp C7. However, the C7 has been the quicker car through the corners in most every version so far than the comparable 991. The Corvette excels because of its weight distribution, tire sizes, and extremely low center of gravity. Put them on a track and the C7 will run the same times while being slower in a straightline for half the price.
The ZR1 will probably be more than competitive at shorter tracks that emphasize corner speeds and acceleration under 120-130mph ie anything in America.
Last edited by Kappa; 01-09-2018 at 09:35 PM.
01-09-2018, 09:42 PM
#342
Drifting
actually, you should reverse your assumptions of where the 911 and corvette currently excel at.
The gt2rs will have no problem outrunning the zr1 in a straight line. Just like the lower level 991's dispatching corvettes despite having a marked power disadvantage, the gt2rs should be a car that traps 135-138mph. The zr1 is not going to be doing that imo. Also, the gt2rs produces about the same amount of downforce as the zr1 at similar speeds.
Porsche underrates their engines, they are better geared for top speed acceleration, and the 991 has much cleaner aero than the c7. Even with a manual, the 450hp 991 gts traps 123mph vs 117-118mph for a 460hp c7. However, the c7 has been the quicker car through the corners in most every version so far than the comparable 991. The corvette excels because of its weight distribution, tire sizes, and extremely low center of gravity. Put them on a track and the c7 will run the same times while being slower in a straightline for half the price.
The zr1 will probably be more than competitive at shorter tracks that emphasize corner speeds and acceleration under 120-130mph ie anything in america.
The gt2rs will have no problem outrunning the zr1 in a straight line. Just like the lower level 991's dispatching corvettes despite having a marked power disadvantage, the gt2rs should be a car that traps 135-138mph. The zr1 is not going to be doing that imo. Also, the gt2rs produces about the same amount of downforce as the zr1 at similar speeds.
Porsche underrates their engines, they are better geared for top speed acceleration, and the 991 has much cleaner aero than the c7. Even with a manual, the 450hp 991 gts traps 123mph vs 117-118mph for a 460hp c7. However, the c7 has been the quicker car through the corners in most every version so far than the comparable 991. The corvette excels because of its weight distribution, tire sizes, and extremely low center of gravity. Put them on a track and the c7 will run the same times while being slower in a straightline for half the price.
The zr1 will probably be more than competitive at shorter tracks that emphasize corner speeds and acceleration under 120-130mph ie anything in america.
Last edited by Innovate; 01-09-2018 at 09:45 PM.
01-09-2018, 09:49 PM
#343
Le Mans Master
Overboost Feature (Turbo Torque)!
That may be what the P-car driver used on the straight to pull the speed up faster. The Turbo's (Porsche) sure got the toys, and gizmos! Interesting they do it by increasing the exhaust pressure just like my Turbo Supertrapp setup!
The Vette's net torque multiplication exceeds the Porsches high speed in spite of its less favorable gearing! 150lbs of Torque is it!?
The Vette's net torque multiplication exceeds the Porsches high speed in spite of its less favorable gearing! 150lbs of Torque is it!?
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 01-09-2018 at 10:25 PM.
01-09-2018, 10:09 PM
#344
Drifting
That may be what the P-car driver used on the straight to pull the speed up faster. The Turbo's (Porsche) sure got the toys, and gizmos!
The Vette's net torque multiplication exceeds the Porsches high speed in spite of its less favorable gearing! 150lbs of Torque is it!?
The Vette's net torque multiplication exceeds the Porsches high speed in spite of its less favorable gearing! 150lbs of Torque is it!?
01-09-2018, 10:09 PM
#345
Drifting
Dave, we have been “here” before and we politely disagreed but
With all due respect. But HELL NO! (and I would not be so abrupt if it wasn’t for your.) I have seen how both are assembled .
1LE, Z07 are OPTIONS delivered right on the assembly line on it’s way to become a final product. The C7 Z06 07 is borne that way, It is tested that way. It is warranted that way.
The Weissach package, the Radio OEM delete, the A/C delete, Harness delete, etc etc are CUSTOMIZATIONS performed 75 miles away from plant transported by truck. I toured the facility in 2012. It was called just that: the customization facility.
https://www.cnet.com/pictures/porsch...mization-shop/
In short the 6.47 GT2 RS left the plant as a stock car with all the options and then traveled by truck and got the “customization” treatment consisting in the “sterilization” (I know you don’t like the word stripping ) of 50+ (fifty!!) Components ranging in weight from 1(oz) to 15 pounds!
And you know what... good for them! It is great Porsche has a premium based “in house MOD shop” to please all sorts of fancies. Conversely, Tadge has few times reiterated they are not interested in doing that...
Also good Porsche invests big bucks and resources for the Nurburing GT2RS marketing. They are home afterall! and they should “squeeze” that orange as much as possible. Again, Tadge is not into that as much.. and as I reiterated few times for what I am concerned that 6.47 can stay there on top to heart’s content as long as we are presented with facts and we can peel the onion back.
Speaking of peeling the onion.. question for you Dave since you seem in the know: the car was launched in June 2017 but as of three weeks ago it could not be ordered as advertised (Feb they say…?. Also to date I have yet to see an official weight for the STOCK GT2 RS in the federal DMV database which is actually mandatory for legal sales in the US. Do you have an official weight?
AGAIN, nothing personal, but the more I see efforts to pigeonhole this compare with proven false characterizations of 911 superior sales to superior demographics AND a supposedly unreachable 6.47 Nurburing time the more I see a Nurburing GT2 “marketing Turkey” masked with OEM deletes as a stock car.
Finally, I understand your preference for turbos. 911 base went that way, not sure was widely accepted.
I for one don’t understand the new 911 base sales model: 20K more for turbos and 20HP gain!?
Cheers,
Pierre
With all due respect. But HELL NO! (and I would not be so abrupt if it wasn’t for your.) I have seen how both are assembled .
1LE, Z07 are OPTIONS delivered right on the assembly line on it’s way to become a final product. The C7 Z06 07 is borne that way, It is tested that way. It is warranted that way.
The Weissach package, the Radio OEM delete, the A/C delete, Harness delete, etc etc are CUSTOMIZATIONS performed 75 miles away from plant transported by truck. I toured the facility in 2012. It was called just that: the customization facility.
https://www.cnet.com/pictures/porsch...mization-shop/
In short the 6.47 GT2 RS left the plant as a stock car with all the options and then traveled by truck and got the “customization” treatment consisting in the “sterilization” (I know you don’t like the word stripping ) of 50+ (fifty!!) Components ranging in weight from 1(oz) to 15 pounds!
And you know what... good for them! It is great Porsche has a premium based “in house MOD shop” to please all sorts of fancies. Conversely, Tadge has few times reiterated they are not interested in doing that...
Also good Porsche invests big bucks and resources for the Nurburing GT2RS marketing. They are home afterall! and they should “squeeze” that orange as much as possible. Again, Tadge is not into that as much.. and as I reiterated few times for what I am concerned that 6.47 can stay there on top to heart’s content as long as we are presented with facts and we can peel the onion back.
Speaking of peeling the onion.. question for you Dave since you seem in the know: the car was launched in June 2017 but as of three weeks ago it could not be ordered as advertised (Feb they say…?. Also to date I have yet to see an official weight for the STOCK GT2 RS in the federal DMV database which is actually mandatory for legal sales in the US. Do you have an official weight?
AGAIN, nothing personal, but the more I see efforts to pigeonhole this compare with proven false characterizations of 911 superior sales to superior demographics AND a supposedly unreachable 6.47 Nurburing time the more I see a Nurburing GT2 “marketing Turkey” masked with OEM deletes as a stock car.
Finally, I understand your preference for turbos. 911 base went that way, not sure was widely accepted.
I for one don’t understand the new 911 base sales model: 20K more for turbos and 20HP gain!?
Cheers,
Pierre
By the way... do remember WS6 cars and SS cars, when they were sent to ASC for modification and SLP?
The GT2RS, ran at the ring was as anyone could order one (in Europe).. US cars can't even get the roll cage or the delete options... but hell... the ZR1 can't even be sold in Europe.
I'm not going to go down this path with you... it doesn't matter how much proof... you'll continue to believe the Weissach is some mystical 'send to the Porsche LMS team for modifications'... when it's all done on the assembly line, and are standard options. And no different than a 1LE, Z06, WS6, SS, ZR1 of yester years.
As for the 911's going turbo, and gaining 20hp for 20K... they also saw a reduction in displacement... just as we'll (finally) see for the Corvette with the Mid Engine. And GM will finally be out of the Supercharger business (I hope).
As for the GT2RS weight... it will probably be LIGHTER than the one a the ring.... you know why? Because you can't get the roll cage in the US! My 2018 GT3 weighs 3100 lbs without me in it.. the GT2 RS, will probably be 3,250 which is right where R&T had it. (Europe always gets the cars first). And now in the Porsche configurator, you'll see even US cars can have the Radio & AC Delete option.
Best Regards,
Dave
01-09-2018, 10:55 PM
#346
And I agree, the A8 ZR1 should compete just fine against the GT2RS at most tracks.
Last edited by Kappa; 01-09-2018 at 10:56 PM.
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Innovate (01-10-2018)
01-09-2018, 11:04 PM
#347
Team Owner
At the moment, no one can say anything on either side of the fence. You can't say with certainty that it'll be slower than the GT2RS, or faster. I think we all make 'fairly' accurate assumptions about its likely level of performance, only time will tell if we're right.
As for the 'be all, end all' comment. Honestly, IF (it's a BIG IF), it's 2nd ONLY to the GT2RS, then YES, it will be the 'be all, end all track car' particularly considering how well rounded it is. There is NO other car on the market that even comes close to delivering the balanced performance of the ZR1. Daily driver with actual space and a track day king. So people are not crazy for making such comments/comparisons. Obviously, this assumes it runs a sub 7 min Ring time.
How is that drinking the cool aid? It's one of one in the 'well-rounded, DD, track rat category.'
As for the 'be all, end all' comment. Honestly, IF (it's a BIG IF), it's 2nd ONLY to the GT2RS, then YES, it will be the 'be all, end all track car' particularly considering how well rounded it is. There is NO other car on the market that even comes close to delivering the balanced performance of the ZR1. Daily driver with actual space and a track day king. So people are not crazy for making such comments/comparisons. Obviously, this assumes it runs a sub 7 min Ring time.
How is that drinking the cool aid? It's one of one in the 'well-rounded, DD, track rat category.'
Once again, putting caveats on categories is skewing things in your favor. I don't care if the ZR1 drives like a Cadillac on the street, if it can't beat the GT2 RS on the track IT ISN'T A BETTER TRACK CAR, period. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
What we do know is as of today, January 9, 2018 the GT2 RS has a Nurburgring lap time of 6:47, the fastest street legal production car ever to be timed on the track, that's a fact. Speculate all you want about what the ZR1 can or can't do but until I see an official time posted the Porsche is the best car for that track.
Why are people arguing this?
01-09-2018, 11:13 PM
#348
Le Mans Master
We aren't arguing!? ;)
If the ZR1 gets within 10s it wins!
The guys that care can do their own purpose built weight savings, and magnesium, or fiber, wheels - plus custom tires! Heck, they can even toss in a couple of titanium nuts and/or bolts!
The guys that care can do their own purpose built weight savings, and magnesium, or fiber, wheels - plus custom tires! Heck, they can even toss in a couple of titanium nuts and/or bolts!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 01-09-2018 at 11:31 PM.
01-09-2018, 11:29 PM
#349
01-09-2018, 11:39 PM
#350
Drifting
Best Regards,
Dave
01-10-2018, 04:34 AM
#352
Pierre, you cut and pasted the 'Exclusive' option... which is also a porsche factory option... and done in house... Weissach is 75 miles away.. but NOT where any modifications happen.
By the way... do remember WS6 cars and SS cars, when they were sent to ASC for modification and SLP?
The GT2RS, ran at the ring was as anyone could order one (in Europe).. US cars can't even get the roll cage or the delete options... but hell... the ZR1 can't even be sold in Europe.
I'm not going to go down this path with you... it doesn't matter how much proof... you'll continue to believe the Weissach is some mystical 'send to the Porsche LMS team for modifications'... when it's all done on the assembly line, and are standard options. And no different than a 1LE, Z06, WS6, SS, ZR1 of yester years.
As for the 911's going turbo, and gaining 20hp for 20K... they also saw a reduction in displacement... just as we'll (finally) see for the Corvette with the Mid Engine. And GM will finally be out of the Supercharger business (I hope).
As for the GT2RS weight... it will probably be LIGHTER than the one a the ring.... you know why? Because you can't get the roll cage in the US! My 2018 GT3 weighs 3100 lbs without me in it.. the GT2 RS, will probably be 3,250 which is right where R&T had it. (Europe always gets the cars first). And now in the Porsche configurator, you'll see even US cars can have the Radio & AC Delete option.
Best Regards,
Dave
By the way... do remember WS6 cars and SS cars, when they were sent to ASC for modification and SLP?
The GT2RS, ran at the ring was as anyone could order one (in Europe).. US cars can't even get the roll cage or the delete options... but hell... the ZR1 can't even be sold in Europe.
I'm not going to go down this path with you... it doesn't matter how much proof... you'll continue to believe the Weissach is some mystical 'send to the Porsche LMS team for modifications'... when it's all done on the assembly line, and are standard options. And no different than a 1LE, Z06, WS6, SS, ZR1 of yester years.
As for the 911's going turbo, and gaining 20hp for 20K... they also saw a reduction in displacement... just as we'll (finally) see for the Corvette with the Mid Engine. And GM will finally be out of the Supercharger business (I hope).
As for the GT2RS weight... it will probably be LIGHTER than the one a the ring.... you know why? Because you can't get the roll cage in the US! My 2018 GT3 weighs 3100 lbs without me in it.. the GT2 RS, will probably be 3,250 which is right where R&T had it. (Europe always gets the cars first). And now in the Porsche configurator, you'll see even US cars can have the Radio & AC Delete option.
Best Regards,
Dave
The overall tone of this thread seems to be improving with less "sieg heils" going around so I will try to do my part as well..
My work/business takes me to Stuttgart 4 months of almost every year...
I stand by my overall characterization of the experience and knowledge I gained on the 911 customizations.
It seems so far I got it all 90% accurate. You corrected me on the "missing seat" (Thank you) and yes, I called a friend, and as of 2015 Porsche incorporated (bought outright) the customization shop which before that (when I visited) was operating as a SLP type subcontractor with Porsche branding. Customizations are not done on the line.
I think you are missing the scope of my analysis and distinction between options and customizations. I think you interpret it all as I am trying to denigrate the 911 Nurburing effort. If you read my posts I think you will see more analysis, links, and pictures more than anything else. Never said Weissach is mythological.
It is really simple: In the context of this compare, that 6:47 has being achieved with a new motor and by Weissaching and OEM deleting. I shared my analysis to visualize what that REALLY means so I could go beyond the marketing and make a technological assessment of the effort.
I did this after reading all the "next level/technological" marvel overtones attributed to the GT2 RS on one hand and you on the other with the "can't never even come close because the 911 is turbo!! and the ZR1 is not... (will see).
DATA at Hand I am questioning BOTH. Yes, that new motor at 690 (SAE) is a beast on multiple levels! Beast in power but also beast in all the accessories (look at the weight) necessary to squeeze those 690 ponies.
The rest is good'ol weight savings. Some technologically, MOST pure stripping.
Your numbers on weight for a US GT2 read as speculation on one hand and magazine statements on the other..it may as well be but to date none of the Porsche web sites (German included) (EDIT: I stand corrected, see post 357) post official curb weights (car launched June 17...) So for now I stick with the most realistic Sport Auto weight in of 3354 lbs which further reiterates what I am been trying to ask all along... everybody knows the time of the "turkey" car...what is the REAL Nurb time of a "normal & drivable" GT2 RS..
Finally, turbos and S/C..
As for the 911's going turbo, and gaining 20hp for 20K... they also saw a reduction in displacement... just as we'll (finally) see for the Corvette with the Mid Engine. And GM will finally be out of the Supercharger business (I hope).
Not sure about your statements on the new ME. I looked at the leaked CAD pictures.. (see CERV). I see an LT1 in there? Two turbos on an LT1!!??
Some readings on the subject indicate to me the EU is going Turbos to save gas.. for sport/performance I'd like to see and wait..
Kind Regards,
Pierre
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-10-2018 at 10:20 AM.
01-10-2018, 04:39 AM
#353
Yes... and he also stated it is "not a priority..."which makes perfectly sense because HE has figured out the non NURB C7 Z06 sales OBLITERADED the sales of the "Nurburing" C6 Z06........................
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-10-2018 at 04:44 AM.
01-10-2018, 06:16 AM
#354
so we're giving out prizes for the most "well rounded" track car now?
Once again, putting caveats on categories is skewing things in your favor. I don't care if the ZR1 drives like a Cadillac on the street, if it can't beat the GT2 RS on the track IT ISN'T A BETTER TRACK CAR, period. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
What we do know is as of today, January 9, 2018 the GT2 RS has a Nurburgring lap time of 6:47, the fastest street legal production car ever to be timed on the track, that's a fact. Speculate all you want about what the ZR1 can or can't do but until I see an official time posted the Porsche is the best car for that track.
Why are people arguing this?
Once again, putting caveats on categories is skewing things in your favor. I don't care if the ZR1 drives like a Cadillac on the street, if it can't beat the GT2 RS on the track IT ISN'T A BETTER TRACK CAR, period. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
What we do know is as of today, January 9, 2018 the GT2 RS has a Nurburgring lap time of 6:47, the fastest street legal production car ever to be timed on the track, that's a fact. Speculate all you want about what the ZR1 can or can't do but until I see an official time posted the Porsche is the best car for that track.
Why are people arguing this?
While we are at it... I do hope the GT2 RS is actually faster. Can you imagine the out cry if the car with no creature comforts is actually slower than the ZR1? In its own backyard????
01-10-2018, 06:53 AM
#355
Instructor
01-10-2018, 08:53 AM
#356
Le Mans Master
Reiterating! ;)
Be clear the GT2 RS and ZR1 are being helped, a lot:
If addition the GT2 RS has:
ALWAYS ON!
***Within 10s wins; depicts a "White Elephant"!
It makes No sense for Tadge to play it up Too Much. Pride vs Luck!?
- eLSD
- Electronic shock damping
- ABS stability
If addition the GT2 RS has:
- AWS
- Sway bar hydraulics
- Engine mount variability
ALWAYS ON!
***Within 10s wins; depicts a "White Elephant"!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 01-10-2018 at 08:28 PM.
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Telepierre (01-10-2018)
01-10-2018, 09:56 AM
#357
So short of an official US Curb Weight, after some looking I was able to find direct weight statements on the EU side 911 GT2 RS catalog:
https://files.porsche.com/filestore/...S-Catalogo.pdf
CE weight: 1545 Kg (3406.142 lbs). Car standard with no OEM deletes.
https://files.porsche.com/filestore/...S-Catalogo.pdf
CE weight: 1545 Kg (3406.142 lbs). Car standard with no OEM deletes.
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-10-2018 at 10:23 AM.
01-10-2018, 10:01 AM
#358
P.S For track that is..if this is all about that...
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-10-2018 at 10:02 AM.
01-10-2018, 10:19 AM
#359
Le Mans Master
A New 911 doesn't hit the tracks Not excessively heating up the rear brakes! ;)
Almost!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 01-10-2018 at 10:50 AM.
01-10-2018, 10:57 AM
#360
Physics will come into play as the ZR1 IS a near mid-engine car opposed to an aluminum sledge hammer with wheels and power. At those speeds the rear engine Porsche will be a factor to deal with. (Near 50/50 weight ratio/ ZR1 not mid engine)
Last edited by 2fastnow; 01-10-2018 at 11:01 AM.