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Does anybody know if the A8 on ZR1 is the same as it is on Z06?
I have a deposit on a ZR1 and I know the options I like, but I can’t decide on M7 VS A8. My 2016 Z06 was A8 and as much as I loved it, I didn't care for the transmission specially compared to my European cars. The dual clutch on my GTS or Cali T is very quick/crisp and the down shifts and rev matching sound awesome! On Z06, there was barley any throttle blip in downshifts and shifts were slow. Overall I prefer a good DCT to manual.
ZR1 is not going to be my daily drive and on average, I will track it once a month. I understand A8 is quicker on the track, but I am not trying to set any record, I track for fun, not competition.
...I will track it once a month. I understand A8 is quicker on the track, but I am not trying to set any record, I track for fun, not competition.
Of course the problem with 8L90 in the Z06 is the big overheating issue. I assume that will be totally gone in the ZR1.
The A8 may be quicker on a drag strip, but as far as running a roadcourse, I'm not sure there's any real significant difference - especially if you're "not trying to set any record". If you are trying to set records and are a very aggressive driver with a lot of DCT paddle-shifting and left-foot braking experience, you may be able to get the A8 around the track a little quicker.
I'm like you, I track for fun, so I think I'll probably get the M7 like I have in my C7 Z06, and like the manuals in my C6 ZR1, C6 Z06, and base C6 were.
Of course the problem with 8L90 in the Z06 is the big overheating issue. I assume that will be totally gone in the ZR1.
The A8 may be quicker on a drag strip, but as far as running a roadcourse, I'm not sure there's any real significant difference - especially if you're "not trying to set any record". If you are trying to set records and are a very aggressive driver with a lot of DCT paddle-shifting and left-foot braking experience, you may be able to get the A8 around the track a little quicker.
I'm like you, I track for fun, so I think I'll probably get the M7 like I have in my C7 Z06, and like the manuals in my C6 ZR1, C6 Z06, and base C6 were.
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Tadge mentioned that if you plan to track the car with any frequency, the M7 is the way to go.
I do track my car agressively and have 25 years racing on tracks. I never thought I would admit to this, but in back to back tests the automatic is faster on the track than the manual. Faster shifts, always ready for the right gear, either up or down, and frees the driver a little to focus on driving at the limit.
The corvette engineers nailed it. Do not use the paddles and let the programming do the work. Fastest in track mode, submode Sport 2.
I don't know what model you have, but I looked in your profile to see and it says you have a 2011 ZR1. Those cars don't have the A8, so I guess you just haven't updated your profile or your avatar that has the C6 logo.
I assume you have a Stingray with the A8, because if you have a C7 Z06 I don't know how you are able to put the transmission in drive and let it run to redline for every shift without the car overheating.
I have an M7 Z06, but I've instructed in a number of auto trans C7's.
I instructed in a 2014 Stingray with the A6 a few years and the car had no overheating problem - but it was the student's first time on a track so he wasn't driving too aggressively.
However, I've instructed in 3 or 4 C7 Z06's with the A8, and every one has overheated!!! I always try to get the student to paddle shift so we can keep the revs below 6000 to help get a couple more laps before the car overheats and we get the limp mode, but none of them has been interested in paddle shifting. I did get one guy to try it, but he was real bad at it and we just kept bouncing off the rev limiter. I had him put it in manual mode and select 4th gear, and that helped but we still overheated.
The last time I instructed was a couple weeks ago. It was a first time student (well, he'd been to Spring Mt a few years ago when he bought his 2013 ZR1). He was driving a buddy's car and they were sharing it, so I only got two 30 minute sessions with him. It was a Z06/Z07 and I believe a 2016, and for the first session he didn't drive it too aggressively. His buddy had it set up so that in Track mode the DIC was in the Sport instrument display, and he had the oil temp on the right side. I had him driving in PTM mode Sport 1. During the first session the oil temp went right up to the line just before the two redlines - and I think that's right at 290°-300°. I think coolant temp was okay. I was very surprised that we didn't overheat and get the limp mode. During his second session he was getting quite a bit more aggressive and driving the line very well. The oil temp quickly went right up to the top white line and I was surprised that it took us about 20 minutes into the session before we got the limp mode and limped back to the pits.
At every event I've been to I've talked with C7 Z06 owners with the A8, and EVERY ONE OF THEM has overheated if driven hard with the trans in the auto/drive mode. The ONLY way you can get a few more laps before overheating is to put it in the manual mode and paddle shift below 6000 - 5500 is best. Maybe the 2018 A8 Z06 has done something to help, but my experience with the 2017 and earlier Z06's with A8 is that they overheat on the track.
So....you say you drive your car aggressively on the track in auto/drive mode letting the transmission shift at redline and keeping the rpms very high, but I don't know how you can do that without overheating - unless you have a Stingray that may not overheat like the Z06 does. The Z06 with an A8 WILL OVERHEAT if you let the car do the shifting.
I also don't particularly care for the shifting. The upshifts are quite good, but the downshifts are pretty crappy. I have always felt quite a bit of "clunking" during downshifts. And I really hate it when it downshifts in the middle of a turn - it jerks the car a bit. Maybe it's just the less experienced track drivers I've driven with, but the transmission just didn't always shift at what I thought was the correct time to be downshifting. If using paddles you can get around that.
I did a Cadillac event at Daytona the beginning of Sept where we drove both the ATS-V and the CTS-V, and all the cars had the 8L90 A8 (I don't think you can even get a manual trans in the CTS-V anymore). I tried paddle shifting and enjoyed the fairly quick upshifts, but just was not impressed at all with the downshifts - the trans didn't downshift right away when I clicked the paddle, and it wasn't a real quick shift when it did take place.
Bottom line - maybe the A8 in the ZR1 will be better, and one of the big things they seem to have worked on is a lot better cooling for the ZR1, so perhaps the A8 will turn out to be a great transmission in the ZR1 and the car won't have any overheating issues.
If you have a C7 Z06 with the A8 and your car isn't overheating after a few laps on the track with it driven in "D" drive/auto mode with the trans shifting at redline and the revs hardly ever dropping below 6000, I don't know how you do it without it overheating and going into limp mode!!!
I wish I could go for an A8 when I order a ZR1, but until it can up and downshift like in the video below I'm afraid I'll be sticking with the M7.
Scroll the video out to about 2:30 and watch as Tommy Milner takes the C7.R from pit row, out the pit-out lane, and onto the Rolex24 track. Watch a lap or so and you can hear how I want my "automatic" transmission to shift - both UP and DOWN!!! You can see on the display what gear he's in, and you can see and hear how fast the transmission shifts:
Until Chebie comes up with a true DCT or sequential type transmission that will shift like a Ferrari, Audi, Porsche (PDK), GT-R, BMW, C7.R...or even a Volkswagen or Hyundai that has a DCT...I think I'll get the M7 until the Vette gets an "automatic" that will shift like in that video.
Until Chebie comes up with a true DCT or sequential type transmission that will shift like a Ferrari, Audi, Porsche (PDK), GT-R, BMW, C7.R...or even a Volkswagen or Hyundai that has a DCT...I think I'll get the M7 until the Vette gets an "automatic" that will shift like in that video.
1,000% this! A large part of my enthusiasm for driving has always been the technique and skill required to drive a manual car really well. I watched countless videos of Senna and Best Motoring studying the techniques as I beat up my cars on the street and track mastering this art form in my early 20s.
However, as cars get faster and higher tech, you can start to appreciate why DCTs have as much of a take-rate as they do in exotic cars. While it's fun to say exotic car owners are a bunch of wieners that just want to be seen and are too rich and spoiled to be troubled with shifting, hence their affection for flappy paddles, that is not true in all cases (probably true in most though, LOL). I purchased a GT-R a couple years ago as a daily driver and over time have really begun to enjoy the gearbox and paddle shifting. With something as fast as that car, especially a turbo car, the DCT just makes sense. Obviously it is quicker with the launch software and no loss of boost pressure on shifts, but what is interesting is that the paddles are actually engaging, especially in its "R" mode. I assumed I'd get bored of it quickly and at first complained about the lack of a manual when people would ask me how I liked the car. But after a few months, always in manual "R" mode, I started to appreciate that I was still driving a "manual gearbox" car. I had complete and instant control over the current gear my automobile was in and was not driving an "automatic". I couldn't control the level of clutch slip or do my own blips but I was still in control of everything the car was doing. If I'm being honest, the longer I own that car, the more I think a portion of the love of 3-pedals is to satisfy some arrogance that you are doing something which requires skill and the majority of the general public can't do anymore.
Is it as much fun to drive as a stick shift? I think that is hard to quantify since it comes down to personal taste. But generally, stick is more fun on street at 7 or 8 tenths when you can really get a feel for the car and enjoy the process with some margin for error. On the track, or really bombing the car hard on a back road... the DCT may be more enjoyable. You can really focus on the other aspects of driving; braking, turn-in, balancing the car, etc, while still getting great feedback from the instant response of the paddles on up-shifts, and enjoyable perfectly rev-matched downshifts.
One of the main purposes of fast street cars (at least for me) is to be able to experience the thrill and speed of a racing car. Hence, race on Sunday, sell on Monday! If you watch any modern racing series and enjoy the on-board videos, everything is paddle-shifted sequential manual gearboxes. So it makes sense that a modern fast street car would have that technology. Unfortunately, the A8 does not mimic this technology or feeling of control over the shift. For someone who loves the feeling and sound of a rev-matched downshift, downshifting an A8 is about as depressing an experience as you can have. Yes, it works well in auto mode, yes, it shifts quickly at WOT, but the response and feel from using the paddles is just weak. To me, it completely kills the car. Now, for those that don't care about the "feel" of the shift, it is fine. It is also the preferable choice for drag racers, which I completely understand. But I just don't understand how GM would think the A8 setup is good enough for a 2019 Corvette, especially if they have driven anything with a DCT or PDK gearbox, it boggles the mind.
If GM offered the ZR1 with a DCT would I have chosen that over the M7? I do not think I would have, but I would've considered it. I think, in the end, I'd still go with a manual in a front engine Vette, it just feels "right" to me. However, with the upcoming C8, if there is a manual vs DCT option for an 800+ HP twin turbo mid-engine car, I may just go the other way.
Last edited by BillY2KFRC; 12-19-2017 at 03:17 PM.
I wish I could go for an A8 when I order a ZR1, but until it can up and downshift like in the video below I'm afraid I'll be sticking with the M7....
Thank you! The shifts on the video are exhilarating.
Originally Posted by BillY2KFRC
I purchased a GT-R a couple years ago as a daily driver and over time have really begun to enjoy the gearbox and paddle shifting.... the paddles are actually engaging, especially in its "R" mode. I assumed I'd get bored of it quickly and at first complained about the lack of a manual when people would ask me how I liked the car. But after a few months, always in manual "R" mode, I started to appreciate that I was still driving a "manual gearbox" car....
Thank you! I couldn’t have said it better. I find myself looking for excuses to get my AMG GTS out and drive it. I shift up/down even when it doesn’t need it just so I can enjoy the crisp shift and the throttle blip with the awesome sound it makes.
Originally Posted by BillY2KFRC
For someone who loves the feeling and sound of a rev-matched downshift, downshifting an A8 is about as depressing an experience as you can have.
I always defend GM and the value it gives us on the Vette when I am talking to my car snob buddies who drive exotic European, but to be fair, on a ZR1 that will cost $130K-$145K, one would expect a decent DCT.
Of course the problem with 8L90 in the Z06 is the big overheating issue. I assume that will be totally gone in the ZR1.
The A8 may be quicker on a drag strip, but as far as running a roadcourse, I'm not sure there's any real significant difference - especially if you're "not trying to set any record". If you are trying to set records and are a very aggressive driver with a lot of DCT paddle-shifting and left-foot braking experience, you may be able to get the A8 around the track a little quicker.
I'm like you, I track for fun, so I think I'll probably get the M7 like I have in my C7 Z06, and like the manuals in my C6 ZR1, C6 Z06, and base C6 were.
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The problem is not the 8L90, its the lack of cooling efficiency of the engine itself. The trans temps usually "never" over heat.... Its the increased RPMS being maintained constantly by the steeper gears in the A8.
I haven't done a track day in my A8, but have done some spirited driving on our local back roads which is a lot of 2nd-4th gear stuff, and in about a 15 min pass, my trans temps never got over 120*..... Its usually 105-110* on normal cruise.
The engine on the other hand, hit a max of 208*, this was on a 92* ambient temp day.
Ofcourse I know doing laps on a real road coarse is MUCH harder on the engine and trans, but I still can't see the trans getting over 200-220*... AT least not on a C7Z with both coolers, and I'm sure the ZR1 A8 will have even larger/more efficient trans coolers.
The problem is not the 8L90, its the lack of cooling efficiency of the engine itself. The trans temps usually "never" over heat.... Its the increased RPMS being maintained constantly by the steeper gears in the A8....
Absolutely!!
As I mentioned in post# 13 when riding with a student in an A8 Z06 earlier this month:
During the first session the oil temp went right up to the line just before the two redlines - and I think that's right at 290°-300°. I think coolant temp was okay. I was very surprised that we didn't overheat and get the limp mode. During his second session he was getting quite a bit more aggressive and driving the line very well. The oil temp quickly went right up to the top white line and I was surprised that it took us about 20 minutes into the session before we got the limp mode and limped back to the pits.
The student did not want to even try paddle shifting to keep the rpm's lower, so the oil temp just jumped way up very quickly due to the transmission shifting at redline for every upshift, which keeps the revs up high and creates a lot of heat in the engine. Coolant temp is usually okay, but oil temp gets very hot and ultimately causes the limp mode.
Check out this post where thebishman talks about driving the A8 on the track:
Remember that it's not the transmission per se that is causing the overheating on track in the A8 Z06
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The issue is the ECU/TCU programming that ...means the engine is running at close to red-line and hence producing the greatest amount of heat. It is the inadequate engine oil and water cooling systems that then place the car in 'limp' mode and ruin track days for owners.
This can be mitigated to a large extent by...short shifting around 5500 rpm. You can run for 20-25 minutes this way on most tracks during most ambient temps, but it is frustrating as hell tbh...
Bish is an A8 advocate, but as you can read is frustrated with the way you need to drive the car to avoid overheating.
BTW, Bish recently sold his A8 Z06 and got a Mercedes AMG GT R with a proper DCT!!!
I just hope in the ZR1 that the A8 doesn't cause the engine overheating issues like the A8 Z06 has.
12-17-2017, 02:11 PM
Is A8 on ZR1 the same as it is on Z06
If you watch any modern racing series and enjoy the on-board videos, everything is paddle-shifted sequential manual gearboxes. So it makes sense that a modern fast street car would have that technology. Unfortunately, the A8 does not mimic this technology or feeling of control over the shift. For someone who loves the feeling and sound of a rev-matched downshift, downshifting an A8 is about as depressing an experience as you can have. Yes, it works well in auto mode, yes, it shifts quickly at WOT, but the response and feel from using the paddles is just weak. To me, it completely kills the car. Now, for those that don't care about the "feel" of the shift, it is fine. It is also the preferable choice for drag racers, which I completely understand. But I just don't understand how GM would think the A8 setup is good enough for a 2019 Corvette, especially if they have driven anything with a DCT or PDK gearbox, it boggles the mind.
