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Old 08-18-2018, 09:33 AM
  #81  
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It's only a matter of time however, someone could always go the stand alone ECU route if they really wanted to.
Old 08-18-2018, 09:45 AM
  #82  
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i don't believe the car will be able to be tuned UNTIL they come out with some type of "piggyback" set up..

You can thank AUTONOMOUS vehicle technology for the new encryptions being employed.. self driving vehicles and systems set up to be "backdoored" do not go over well by those employed by said corporations.. like cyber security type encryption now

some links to further explain if i didn't articulate that point well enough.

https://www.electronicdesign.com/aut...otive-security

https://www.electronicdesign.com/aut...e-security-can

The automotive security market is at a clear inflection point—safety issues are forcing the industry to move from effectively no security to robust security implementations almost instantaneously. Many powerful market drivers and fast changing dynamics are putting security into the driver seat, especially when the driver isn’t a human.

When any embedded system, especially a vehicle, becomes connected, the first thought should be “how secure is it?” For connected vehicles, until recently, security has been an afterthought at best. That fortunately is changing, which is important because vehicles are becoming largely defined by software as they evolve toward connected autonomous drive.

As entrepreneur and software engineer Marc Andreessen famously said, “Software is eating the world.” If that is true, the next course will be served on wheels. It should be clear to any observer by now that software is already becoming the basis of automotive competition for automakers. Statistics show that software will become the main driver of an automaker’s profitability.

Autonomous driving, connectivity, and other initiatives are making automotive software highly complex with more lines of code than a sophisticated fly-by-wire jet fighter. Connectivity and large code size make vehicles more vulnerable to hacking, raising safety issues. In fact, the industry was given some high profile wakeup calls over the last few years.

Hacks of automotive buses and electronic control units (ECUs), most notably by Dr. Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek of the Jeep, undeniably illustrate that robust cryptographic security is needed, and quickly. That’s due to the simple calculus in the increasingly software-based connected vehicle (and smart highway infrastructure)—without robust cryptographic security, there cannot be safety (Fig. 1). Security will become the table stakes for any new automotive design, right down to the specific processors. Security must become endemic to automotive systems and subsystems just like DNA is to an organism.



1. This chart depicts software size, representing millions lines of code required for each application.

Insecurity Means Liability

The market for automotive security is driven by the fact that current control systems in cars (such as ECUs operating over control-area-network, or CAN, buses) are insecure, which exposes automakers to enormous potential liability. Such liability can only be addressed with technology that’s more advanced than that of the attackers. Because of the high-profile hacks, the deep pockets of carmakers, and the “win the lottery” nature of such litigation, the race to secure vehicles has started. However, car-makers are in catch up mode.

It may not be long before the commercials for asbestos poisoning are replaced with actions for injuries stemming from insecure vehicle systems. If you think about it, in a human-driven car, the human is responsible. In a car driven by software systems, though, it’s very likely that the maker of the car will be held responsible.

Automotive safety and security risks have already attracted the attention of legislators in Washington D.C., and if the history of legislating the automotive industry is any clue, there’s much more to come. Because public safety is at stake with automotive hacking, specific cryptographic security will increasingly be mandated by legislation. However, the specifics aren’t clear.

The most salient examples of legislative interest in automotive security is the Markey Car Security Report and the SPY Car Act. With Washington getting into the act, clearly there will be increasing urgency to design, analyze, test, respond, and standardize automotive security. However, before technical solutions can be standardized and/or legislated, it’s critical to understand what is meant by “automotive security.”

The Mobile Compute-Platform

The connected autonomous car will morph into a sophisticated networked compute-platform, integrated with fused sensors and actuators, and be increasingly controlled by artificial intelligence. This is becoming clear by now.

Vehicles are already a hybrid mechanical-electrical control system with a wide range of ECUs sending and receiving signals over evolving signaling buses to act in a coordinated, organic way. ECUs are controlled by increasingly sophisticated and complex software. But, for connected, networked cars to be safe, the software and hardware must be extremely secure, meaning they must have multi-layered robust cryptographic security mechanisms built right in.

Cryptographic security means that mathematical algorithms, methods, protocols, cryptographic keys, and certificates like those used to secure banking systems, smart cards, mobile infrastructure, and secure websites must be designed into vehicles (and into their manufacturing systems). These methodologies will be used to protect sensors, actuators, ECUs, communications buses, ECU access points, and gateways to the outside world.

Today, signaling buses and ECUs aren’t very secure and a hacker can inject malicious messages to make a car potentially unsafe. One might even say that without security, the notion of a connected autonomous car can’t be safely realized. No safety means no connected autonomous car industry.

If autonomous cars are the next big thing, then a truly robust automotive security architecture for ECUs, gateways, domain/area controllers, and their manufacturing systems is the thing that makes the next big thing possible. Therefore, it’s not an overstatement to say that robust cryptographic security is the sine qua non of the automotive future.

ECUs are at the heart of the automotive security challenge because they and the buses that connect them need to be secured. There’s no way to tell if the signals or messages sent are from an authentic sender, or if they have been corrupted (i.e., have lost data integrity). That must change quickly, and every carmaker, ECU producer, and automotive semiconductor supplier knows it and is working on it. However, there are no standards and these approaches often tend to be fragmented.

ECUs are little computers that run a wide range of systems, including the powertrain; things inside the car like seats, mirrors, windows; multimedia systems; braking systems; safety systems (e.g., airbags); emerging assisted driving mechanisms; and sensor/actuator platforms, among others. Because ECUs control remote systems, they need to be connected to those things (obviously), and that’s done over various types of buses such as CAN, LIN, FlexRay, MOST, and others. Eventually, as more data is gathered and processed by cars, higher bandwidth networks like to those now used by PCs (e.g., Ethernet) will be widely employed. This shift has started.

As for security, as the number of computing nodes in a car network grows, the ways in which these nodes can be attacked increases exponentially (some experts say to the 4th exponent of the number of nodes).

Automotive cryptographic standards and architectures for secure ECUs and other processors aren’t standardized. OEMs, Tier Ones, and Tier Two semiconductor suppliers haven’t agreed on a common standard for securing and updating vehicles and factories, but are looking to each other for a holistic solution that none currently can offer. Past standardization activities such as the European Union’s EVITA and the Hersteller Institute of Software’s Secure Hardware Extension (SHE) are still in their infancy despite nearly a decade of work by important parties in the automotive ecosystem.

What this means is the clay is wet when it comes to automotive security, and many proposals are being made by startups, established computer security companies, networking companies, management consultants, IP providers, mobile communications companies, OEMs, Tier Ones, Tier Twos, and others.

Given the cat-and-mouse nature of digital security, and the accelerating advances in connected autonomous vehicle technologies, there will always be a certain amount of cryptographic evolution and flux, making the task to define and standardize architectures challenging. The ability to adapt to the unknown must be built into any security solution. That point can’t be emphasized enough.
^^^that is an excerpt from the article. interesting read if you are into "what's" coming down the pike so to speak in the aftermarket world.. cost will be the limiting factor. how many of what model does it become effective to build and generate a system to control the car?? mustangs/camaros etc would be much more likely than more limited models because there are so many more of them out there. I believe corvette falls into this category but does a ZR1? i don't think it would.. a Z06? 10k plus annually? definitely.. and of course the stingray.

Last edited by 23/C8Z; 08-18-2018 at 09:53 AM.
Old 08-18-2018, 10:24 AM
  #83  
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The lack of tuning is very disappointing. Obviously the ZL1 Camaro and Z06 etc. has always been an exceptional value for the performance and money spent even in stock form. To me, one of the most attractive things about buying the GM cars is that with a very small amount of money the cars can be dramatically improved in their performance and in most cases will surpass car is costing three times as much by performing cost effective mods.
One of the great things about the GM cars were always the potential that was in the cars from the factory that just needed slight modifications by the user.
it seems that that opportunity is now lost! I know there are plenty of people out there that have no intention of modding thier ZR1. This thread is not intended for those people.
with a decent cam, and Miner fuel mods, car can be an absolute beast. I was so excited about the new large supercharger, it just seems like there’s a lot of fruit left in the basket that we will never be able to access now.
I know people have mentioned a standalone computer system but that really kind of ridiculous and not necessary.
Buying a car that you cannot tune because of the computer is a step backwards for Car enthusiasts. Hopefully the problem can be solved.
for me cars or a hobby and an interest if I can’t modify them might have to look elsewhere to another purchase.
it is a shame because I love the ZR1 And the car easily has the potential to not get walked by 720 S
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Old 08-18-2018, 02:23 PM
  #84  
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Piggyback solutions are starting to become available for "locked" engine ECU's.
Dodge has been locked for a few years.
https://www.diablosport.com/2015-201...0-hemi-tuning/
GM may be next.
Old 08-18-2018, 03:15 PM
  #85  
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This has been covered before. It's all for sale, so it's just a matter of companies determining how much they can make if they had access to certain code sections. Given that GM already has a tune in the car for cat-less off-road operation in conjunction with the intake and an x-pipe I would think that aftermarket options will be available in time. First the cars need to be produced and sold in numbers to justify the capital expense.
Old 08-18-2018, 04:25 PM
  #86  
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"It's all for sale". Where did you get that information because I'm relatively sure that is not the case.
Old 08-18-2018, 04:54 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Palantirion
This has been covered before. It's all for sale, so it's just a matter of companies determining how much they can make if they had access to certain code sections. Given that GM already has a tune in the car for cat-less off-road operation in conjunction with the intake and an x-pipe I would think that aftermarket options will be available in time. First the cars need to be produced and sold in numbers to justify the capital expense.
Tell me more about this tune already in the car for catless x-pioe and intake. How do you know this? Do you know what x-pioe it was designed for?
Old 08-18-2018, 05:25 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by BearZ06
"It's all for sale". Where did you get that information because I'm relatively sure that is not the case.
- I used to co-own a BMW tuning and race fab shop, learned a lot about the real (as opposed to publicly-perceived) aftermarket business. During that process, most specifically to tuning the MSV70 on my Z4 M Coupe, I was informed by a different company's programmer (name withheld for obvious reasons) that it was common practice for BMW and all other euro manufacturers to have unlocks for their engine management available for sale. Prices vary depending on the sections desired, or for full unlock (over $100k). If you are building a race car you just go with Motec, but the street car tuners (for supercharger kits, etc.) needed access. Which is one reason why a lot of the E46 supercharger and single turbo kits didn't actually work - they couldn't hack or afford the unlocks and had to run piggyback and this could never, ever adapt correctly to control all the maps under all conditions because it was limited in its inputs relative to the DME. Of course some people have connections within corporations and can get info for "free". Networking is a benefit in all business.

Originally Posted by Poor-sha
Tell me more about this tune already in the car for catless x-pioe and intake. How do you know this? Do you know what x-pioe it was designed for?
- I would think you would know it better than I. I read about it in this forum section. It was a 100 octane + x-pipe + intake tune that the ZR1 would automatically switch to if it detected this setup (airflow and pre-det sensing?). Although I would imagine in reality it's just removing certain higher value limits so there may be benefit from other mild mods. I think it might have been mentioned from news from The Bash? I don't have time to dig for it atm, sorry.
Old 08-18-2018, 09:24 PM
  #89  
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Let me ponder.... Let's see, if there's a problem where GM must reprogram then they can't do it because it's un-modifiable. Damn, very short sighted of GM. So, OK let's suppose GM can reprogram then it must be magic because no one else can reprogram. Wow, that's amazing. But wait a minute I don't live in a world where magic works. Hummm, there must be a secret way that GM is keep from everybody else. Wow if there's a secret way then it's probably on somebody's computer. OK, now I know how to reprogram.. Just get a hold on one of the hackers in China and give them a few bucks for the solution.


Problem solved
Old 08-19-2018, 10:37 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Palantirion
- I used to co-own a BMW tuning and race fab shop, learned a lot about the real (as opposed to publicly-perceived) aftermarket business. During that process, most specifically to tuning the MSV70 on my Z4 M Coupe, I was informed by a different company's programmer (name withheld for obvious reasons) that it was common practice for BMW and all other euro manufacturers to have unlocks for their engine management available for sale. Prices vary depending on the sections desired, or for full unlock (over $100k). If you are building a race car you just go with Motec, but the street car tuners (for supercharger kits, etc.) needed access. Which is one reason why a lot of the E46 supercharger and single turbo kits didn't actually work - they couldn't hack or afford the unlocks and had to run piggyback and this could never, ever adapt correctly to control all the maps under all conditions because it was limited in its inputs relative to the DME. Of course some people have connections within corporations and can get info for "free". Networking is a benefit in all business.


- I would think you would know it better than I. I read about it in this forum section. It was a 100 octane + x-pipe + intake tune that the ZR1 would automatically switch to if it detected this setup (airflow and pre-det sensing?). Although I would imagine in reality it's just removing certain higher value limits so there may be benefit from other mild mods. I think it might have been mentioned from news from The Bash? I don't have time to dig for it atm, sorry.
The encryption is not to prevent warranty fraud, but as previously mentioned the sad future of autonomy. A guy gets over on them for a fake warranty claim and it's $10-20k for a motor swap, but if a terrorist hacks a car and plows it into a crowd, killing dozens and GM didn't prevent the hack, and it's hundreds of millions in a lawsuit. If we could just Minority Report them and lock them all up before they did their crimes, right?! LOL

I can assure you that GM will not sell the unlock services to anyone, as even their large contractors making trucks for the military had to develop their own ECU to run the engine which is not CAN integrated, so while they work from a simplistic function, nothing else in them works as far as electronics and creature comforts. I've had extensive discussions with a few different contractors about this and they all said the same thing.

Lastly, this automatic 100 octane tune is a rumor as far as I can tell, especially with an x-pipe and intake as I did throw some 105 octane in the car when going to the track one day and I saw no timing increases as this is still tied to the Cylinder Airmass. I realize the Demon has something like this, but I haven't had a chance to delve into how that one works. Conversely, a true increase in octane without advancing the timing along with it to fully burn the fuel actually results in less power as the spark comes to late to fully ignite the higher octane fuel and thus you have waste. I know it says to run 100 octane fuel for track days, but I would venture to bet that is for safety of the motor to stave off knock when it gets hot, not to unleash more power and while this will provide more power around the track vs. the engine picking up knock from heat and pulling timing, it's more like retaining the power you have, not adding more. A true octane testing tool on-board a car would be fairly pricey unless it was using something like the virtual flex table which I first started noticing when tuning my ATS V, but it was not active in the tune. Some GM vehicles must use this unless it's a future deal, but the diff in specific gravity isn't much between the 93 and E85, maybe .2-.4ish, so it would rely on a pretty accurate scale and then when you get a blend, I just don't see how it would work properly.

The Camaro ZL1 drag program has been teased to the community since SEMA last year. I was fortunate enough to get some info on that, as I want some of this for my ZL1 as well. They were running dozens of 10.0s quarter mile passes with a pulley, intake, and new calibrations for the ECM, TCM, BCM for Mag Ride, and the eLSD drag, ALL of which would have to be done at a dealership and I believe the car had to be trailered in or something as this was for off-road use only; however, my guess is there are a lot of internal struggles between the performance division and the warranty bean counters. So, despite Ford Performance having it all figured out in the aftermarket world, it seems like GMP still has a ways to go...
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:48 AM
  #91  
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Ben, you are correct and from what i've posted and read (my best friend owns Tune Time and we discuss this issue all the time including after i posted that link yesterday), the biggest issue I see for the aftermarket tuners is this ----Uncle Sam----

if anyone read the articles i linked or researched this issue on their own they would likely see (if they were able to stay awake while reading past the boring parts) that Washington is the reason why all of this encryption is being taken to cyber security type levels.. That's the problem.. once you force the hand of these companies to make their products accountable at that level and with the understanding that feet will be held to flame should their system be cracked by someone in the future, gloves are off...

It doesn't take much to make it so that any time an ECU is modified that until it reads a check from mother base (wifi connection to GM) you cannot start the caror worse put it in some reduced power mode requiring a dealer to unlock it...god no...... like hacking the old satellite cards for direct tv once the company got serious it's over..

the days of having the ability to stop into a tuner and have an update done could only apply to pre 2019-20 cars/trucks.. GM has been slowly getting tighter with each new ECU.. i also know that a top ECU hacker who does work for a well known aftermarket company (in this country) has had FIVE (5) E99's since they were available and has not gotten into them yet.. furthermore, that the frustration level is far beyond any before it (and mind you, this is the guy who got into the duramax ECU) and has made little to no progress and has advised that for the same reasons we've articulated above, it isn't looking promising..

-- once my kid's 18 Terrain advised us that it was doing an "automatic update" through the radio the other day while sitting in the driveway, i said to myself.. it's over Johnny....sweep the leg..
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:31 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by BearZ06
"It's all for sale". Where did you get that information because I'm relatively sure that is not the case.
Here you go. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1597480670
The ability to tune the ZR1 has been available for several months. Just waiting to see which aftermarket tuner is willing to pay the required "fee's" for the ECU access.
Old 08-19-2018, 03:49 PM
  #93  
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Read that thread. Where does it say they are in? That's a big negative on the E99... read my post. Many on here know the company I did not mention by name.. It's a very well known and respected aftermarket company specializing in performance in a straight line more so than all else and corvettes are not their biggest money maker by a long shot... but they have the best ecu hacker out there locked down some how. That's a known fact in that industry. When they get in you'll hear about it.

ZR1 ecu is as of now and many months in..unhackable..

Last edited by 23/C8Z; 08-19-2018 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:40 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Ben@WeaponX
The encryption is not to prevent warranty fraud, but as previously mentioned the sad future of autonomy. A guy gets over on them for a fake warranty claim and it's $10-20k for a motor swap, but if a terrorist hacks a car and plows it into a crowd, killing dozens and GM didn't prevent the hack, and it's hundreds of millions in a lawsuit. If we could just Minority Report them and lock them all up before they did their crimes, right?! LOL

I can assure you that GM will not sell the unlock services to anyone, as even their large contractors making trucks for the military had to develop their own ECU to run the engine which is not CAN integrated, so while they work from a simplistic function, nothing else in them works as far as electronics and creature comforts. I've had extensive discussions with a few different contractors about this and they all said the same thing.

Lastly, this automatic 100 octane tune is a rumor as far as I can tell, especially with an x-pipe and intake as I did throw some 105 octane in the car when going to the track one day and I saw no timing increases as this is still tied to the Cylinder Airmass. I realize the Demon has something like this, but I haven't had a chance to delve into how that one works. Conversely, a true increase in octane without advancing the timing along with it to fully burn the fuel actually results in less power as the spark comes to late to fully ignite the higher octane fuel and thus you have waste. I know it says to run 100 octane fuel for track days, but I would venture to bet that is for safety of the motor to stave off knock when it gets hot, not to unleash more power and while this will provide more power around the track vs. the engine picking up knock from heat and pulling timing, it's more like retaining the power you have, not adding more. A true octane testing tool on-board a car would be fairly pricey unless it was using something like the virtual flex table which I first started noticing when tuning my ATS V, but it was not active in the tune. Some GM vehicles must use this unless it's a future deal, but the diff in specific gravity isn't much between the 93 and E85, maybe .2-.4ish, so it would rely on a pretty accurate scale and then when you get a blend, I just don't see how it would work properly.

The Camaro ZL1 drag program has been teased to the community since SEMA last year. I was fortunate enough to get some info on that, as I want some of this for my ZL1 as well. They were running dozens of 10.0s quarter mile passes with a pulley, intake, and new calibrations for the ECM, TCM, BCM for Mag Ride, and the eLSD drag, ALL of which would have to be done at a dealership and I believe the car had to be trailered in or something as this was for off-road use only; however, my guess is there are a lot of internal struggles between the performance division and the warranty bean counters. So, despite Ford Performance having it all figured out in the aftermarket world, it seems like GMP still has a ways to go...
Nice to have some FACTS come in the conversation!
Old 08-19-2018, 06:31 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Palantirion


- I would think you would know it better than I. I read about it in this forum section. It was a 100 octane + x-pipe + intake tune that the ZR1 would automatically switch to if it detected this setup (airflow and pre-det sensing?). Although I would imagine in reality it's just removing certain higher value limits so there may be benefit from other mild mods. I think it might have been mentioned from news from The Bash? I don't have time to dig for it atm, sorry.
If I remember correctly that was posted by someone claiming to have inside info prior to the ZR1 launch and was never confirmed in any way or announced or mentioned by any official channels.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:50 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Ben@WeaponX
The encryption is not to prevent warranty fraud, but as previously mentioned the sad future of autonomy. A guy gets over on them for a fake warranty claim and it's $10-20k for a motor swap, but if a terrorist hacks a car and plows it into a crowd, killing dozens and GM didn't prevent the hack, and it's hundreds of millions in a lawsuit. If we could just Minority Report them and lock them all up before they did their crimes, right?! LOL

I can assure you that GM will not sell the unlock services to anyone, as even their large contractors making trucks for the military had to develop their own ECU to run the engine which is not CAN integrated, so while they work from a simplistic function, nothing else in them works as far as electronics and creature comforts. I've had extensive discussions with a few different contractors about this and they all said the same thing.

Lastly, this automatic 100 octane tune is a rumor as far as I can tell, especially with an x-pipe and intake as I did throw some 105 octane in the car when going to the track one day and I saw no timing increases as this is still tied to the Cylinder Airmass. I realize the Demon has something like this, but I haven't had a chance to delve into how that one works. Conversely, a true increase in octane without advancing the timing along with it to fully burn the fuel actually results in less power as the spark comes to late to fully ignite the higher octane fuel and thus you have waste. I know it says to run 100 octane fuel for track days, but I would venture to bet that is for safety of the motor to stave off knock when it gets hot, not to unleash more power and while this will provide more power around the track vs. the engine picking up knock from heat and pulling timing, it's more like retaining the power you have, not adding more. A true octane testing tool on-board a car would be fairly pricey unless it was using something like the virtual flex table which I first started noticing when tuning my ATS V, but it was not active in the tune. Some GM vehicles must use this unless it's a future deal, but the diff in specific gravity isn't much between the 93 and E85, maybe .2-.4ish, so it would rely on a pretty accurate scale and then when you get a blend, I just don't see how it would work properly.

The Camaro ZL1 drag program has been teased to the community since SEMA last year. I was fortunate enough to get some info on that, as I want some of this for my ZL1 as well. They were running dozens of 10.0s quarter mile passes with a pulley, intake, and new calibrations for the ECM, TCM, BCM for Mag Ride, and the eLSD drag, ALL of which would have to be done at a dealership and I believe the car had to be trailered in or something as this was for off-road use only; however, my guess is there are a lot of internal struggles between the performance division and the warranty bean counters. So, despite Ford Performance having it all figured out in the aftermarket world, it seems like GMP still has a ways to go...
- You do realize that separate functions within the ECU can be separately encrypted, right? Ignition timing can be separate from throttle position, separate from the fuel map, etc. So there is no physical reason why GM couldn't sell code unlocks while simultaneously protecting the operation of the vehicle.
Old 08-19-2018, 08:25 PM
  #97  
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They will never do it for numerous reasons including but not limited to

EPA compliance

proprietary software/development protections

Pandora's box- opportunity presents chance for hacker to reverse process and backdoor it somehow etc.

the only thing they will do is for the drag program and that will only be a fraction of the ECU with I'm sure separate keys.

if or I should say when, it's broken it will be interesting to see if anything gets locked down or wiped etc like a failure would be in a good cybersecurity type system would do. Then they have to work around that mess.

gonna be years. Easier way is to trick the computer - guerilla tactics lol

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To ZR1 un-tunable?

Old 08-19-2018, 10:10 PM
  #98  
Palantirion
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Originally Posted by 16/C7Z
They will never do it for numerous reasons including but not limited to
EPA compliance
- Nope. No effect whatsoever. Any tuner can just say the tune is "for off road use only". GM has no liability regardless, it's not their tune.

Originally Posted by 16/C7Z
proprietary software/development protections
- Nope. Giving access to change values (to tune) is not he same as giving someone source code. Selling software keys just givens a tuner the ability to change values within a data range set by GM - and NOTHING ELSE. Nothing within GM's code is risked by this, because access is still protected by encryption. Or do you think you are hacking Microsoft Excel just because you can edit a spreadsheet?

Originally Posted by 16/C7Z
Pandora's box- opportunity presents chance for hacker to reverse process and backdoor it somehow etc.
- Nope. See above. Besides, getting a key to unlock encryption does NOT mean you have any clue as to the degree or style of the encryption. That's why it's a key, instead of disassembly instructions. When you put a key in a lock you don't get to see how it interacts with the pins. You aren't granted access to the lock's internals except in one specific way controlled by the key maker.


Old 08-20-2018, 11:03 AM
  #99  
Ben@WeaponX
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Originally Posted by Palantirion
- Nope. No effect whatsoever. Any tuner can just say the tune is "for off road use only". GM has no liability regardless, it's not their tune.


- Nope. Giving access to change values (to tune) is not he same as giving someone source code. Selling software keys just givens a tuner the ability to change values within a data range set by GM - and NOTHING ELSE. Nothing within GM's code is risked by this, because access is still protected by encryption. Or do you think you are hacking Microsoft Excel just because you can edit a spreadsheet?


- Nope. See above. Besides, getting a key to unlock encryption does NOT mean you have any clue as to the degree or style of the encryption. That's why it's a key, instead of disassembly instructions. When you put a key in a lock you don't get to see how it interacts with the pins. You aren't granted access to the lock's internals except in one specific way controlled by the key maker.
You seem to be arguing theories here as fact based on your history with other auto mfgrs and it really isn't apples to apples. The troubles we face today and vastly different thane even a year ago with the way this is headed.
GM has zero interest in helping out the aftermarket industry get into their cars... the extents they went with the HD2048 encryption shows just how hard they are trying to protect it all.
Sadly, anyone can sue for literally anything and it is up to the defendant to fight it.
Off road use only does not absolve anyone modifying a vehicle either and most of CA is finding out with CARB as well as the EPA, slapping a "off road use only" disclaimer doesn't work, especially when the vehicles are registered and have titles, thus indicating a street car, not an off-road use only car.

https://jalopnik.com/the-epas-crackd...ned-1758111546
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:18 PM
  #100  
heavychevy
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People said the same thing about the new Vipers, those have been cracked. The aftermarket is undefeated. I'll go with them until proven otherwise.

Last edited by heavychevy; 08-20-2018 at 12:18 PM.


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