Will 2019 ZR1 beat the 2019 NA GT3 RS at the 'Ring?
11-07-2018, 10:04 PM
#201
The most common times that manufacturers or testers quote for Nordschleife in these comparisons are single "lap" runs that are not quite a full lap, the finish line is 200 meters before the start line, which is just before turn 1, to avoid drivers going too fast at the end of a full lap and going off track into the wall at turn 1, in this case the nearly full lap is 20.6 km, while a true full lap is 20.8 km.
The driver and conditions also make a difference. For the C7 Z06/Z07: Christian Gebhardt - 7:13.90, Jim Mero - 7:22.68 (I don't know if either or both had the MR calibration update, or the conditions like weather). It's not clear if any mods were done to the GT3RS which ran a 6:56.40. In the case of Randy Pobst, the ZR1 isn't that much quicker than the Z06: Willow Springs - ZR1 - 1:23.70, Z06 - 1:25. VIR west - ZR1 - 2:37.25, Z06 (with MR calibration update) 2:39.77. The issue is that the speed difference isn't significant until somewhat down a reasonably long straight, as the ZR1 isn't going to pull away much until well beyond 100 mph. The extra weight of the ZR1 is offsetting the increased downforce somewhat, and cornering speeds aren't that much different for a .05 to .10 increase in lateral g. My "guestimate" for the ZR1 would be around 7:05.
Link to video of the Z06/Z07 7:13.90 lap. Top speed on the long straight was about 177 mph instead of 185 mph, and I wonder if a small amount of power was pulled due to heat build up during the lap, or possibly a headwind on that run.
The driver and conditions also make a difference. For the C7 Z06/Z07: Christian Gebhardt - 7:13.90, Jim Mero - 7:22.68 (I don't know if either or both had the MR calibration update, or the conditions like weather). It's not clear if any mods were done to the GT3RS which ran a 6:56.40. In the case of Randy Pobst, the ZR1 isn't that much quicker than the Z06: Willow Springs - ZR1 - 1:23.70, Z06 - 1:25. VIR west - ZR1 - 2:37.25, Z06 (with MR calibration update) 2:39.77. The issue is that the speed difference isn't significant until somewhat down a reasonably long straight, as the ZR1 isn't going to pull away much until well beyond 100 mph. The extra weight of the ZR1 is offsetting the increased downforce somewhat, and cornering speeds aren't that much different for a .05 to .10 increase in lateral g. My "guestimate" for the ZR1 would be around 7:05.
Link to video of the Z06/Z07 7:13.90 lap. Top speed on the long straight was about 177 mph instead of 185 mph, and I wonder if a small amount of power was pulled due to heat build up during the lap, or possibly a headwind on that run.
Last edited by rcgldr; 11-08-2018 at 02:39 AM.
12-08-2018, 10:38 PM
#202
I owned a 991S with the X51 power kit and at the time I bought it, it was the most powerful na 991 at the time. A year later Porsche came out with GT3. I feel fortunate to have skipped buying that model as the 2014 and 2015 had engine problems (finger followers) resulting in Porsche having to replace the engines. They have extended a warranty to those owners with a 10 year, 120,000 mile warranty.
My good friend Rob Carr who lives close by was the lead in coordinating a meeting with Porsche USA to discuss the problem resulting in the extended warranty. Had Rob not put together that meeting with the backing of Porsche owners world wide I doubt the problem would have been acknowledged by Porsche. Last summer I sold my 911S X51 and had an opportunity to purchase a GT3 but instead bought a 2017 Z07 3LZ. I continue to drive with my Porsche buddies who own the RS, .1 and .2 GT3 and GT4. They are a great group of enthusiasts and we drive our cars aggressively on nearby mountain roads when traffic permits. The Z07 shines very, very brightly among these GT cars if you know what I mean. Porsche makes a good car but I prefer the Z07. The lack of torque in the GT cars really hurts the fun factor even though the engine revs to 9000. In the Z the fun factor goes from idle all the way to 6600 rpms, or roughly 6000 rpms. in the GT3 it's just below 6000 rpm to 9000 rpms, or 3000+ rpms. It's just not practical to drive between 6 and 9000 rpms all the time. And although the Porsche 6 cylinder sounds good the 8 cylinder V8 sounds so much better. These are 2 great marques but I prefer the Z. We'll see how the new rs fairs against the new ZR1 here on our tracks, but I won't be surprised if the Z holds a distinct advantage. P.S. the GT3s are not as light as advertised by Porsche. The GT2 RS is closer to 3400 lbs and the new GT3 is 3300+ lbs
My good friend Rob Carr who lives close by was the lead in coordinating a meeting with Porsche USA to discuss the problem resulting in the extended warranty. Had Rob not put together that meeting with the backing of Porsche owners world wide I doubt the problem would have been acknowledged by Porsche. Last summer I sold my 911S X51 and had an opportunity to purchase a GT3 but instead bought a 2017 Z07 3LZ. I continue to drive with my Porsche buddies who own the RS, .1 and .2 GT3 and GT4. They are a great group of enthusiasts and we drive our cars aggressively on nearby mountain roads when traffic permits. The Z07 shines very, very brightly among these GT cars if you know what I mean. Porsche makes a good car but I prefer the Z07. The lack of torque in the GT cars really hurts the fun factor even though the engine revs to 9000. In the Z the fun factor goes from idle all the way to 6600 rpms, or roughly 6000 rpms. in the GT3 it's just below 6000 rpm to 9000 rpms, or 3000+ rpms. It's just not practical to drive between 6 and 9000 rpms all the time. And although the Porsche 6 cylinder sounds good the 8 cylinder V8 sounds so much better. These are 2 great marques but I prefer the Z. We'll see how the new rs fairs against the new ZR1 here on our tracks, but I won't be surprised if the Z holds a distinct advantage. P.S. the GT3s are not as light as advertised by Porsche. The GT2 RS is closer to 3400 lbs and the new GT3 is 3300+ lbs
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HotHonda (12-11-2018)
12-08-2018, 10:42 PM
#203
I can’t take any of these ring times serious anymore. No way do I believe a car with nearly half the power can beat the million dollar 918. Nissan and Ferrari have both been caught using ringers and I wouldn’t be surprised if Porsche is doing the same. You can’t tell me Porsche has advanced their technology so far that a 500hp car is doing numbers like an over 800hp hyper car made by the same company that’s only a couple years old. Just don’t believe it.
12-08-2018, 10:45 PM
#204
03-29-2020, 09:32 AM
#205
Race Director
All great points Poor-sha. We'll agree to disagree on both points, especially concerning Mero. It's difficult to say which would be better without a direct comparison, but as far as I know, all of the other top lap time manufacturers use pro drivers for their records. Of course it's all speculation, part of the fun. Please note, I didn't say anything about the tire differences alone being worth 5 seconds - I used no definitive terms, because I'm not stating anything as definitive fact.
I also believe that had GM let Mero stay there and run and run and run like Porsche does (practically living there) he would beat the 2019 GT3 rs. Look at what the GT3 rs does at other tracks that the ZR1 heck the Z06 has done... the Ring is a "ringer" for Porsche.
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sidewinder77 (04-04-2020)
03-29-2020, 10:18 AM
#206
nobody on earth could put down a faster Ring time in a C7 ZR1 than Mero because of everything outlined by poorsha - He tuned the car - He has hundreds of laps at the RIng.. no skill is replacing both, let alone one of those things at his level. just my opinion.
I also believe that had GM let Mero stay there and run and run and run like Porsche does (practically living there) he would beat the 2019 GT3 rs. Look at what the GT3 rs does at other tracks that the ZR1 heck the Z06 has done... the Ring is a "ringer" for Porsche.
I also believe that had GM let Mero stay there and run and run and run like Porsche does (practically living there) he would beat the 2019 GT3 rs. Look at what the GT3 rs does at other tracks that the ZR1 heck the Z06 has done... the Ring is a "ringer" for Porsche.
A development driver like Mero does a few laps, looks at data of how the car is reacting and how to make engineering adjustments, does a few segments fast, then backs off a bit, looks at more data and thinks "how do we adjust shock rates to help through that section?" A racecar driver like Estre in the Nurburgring 24 hour race does 2+ hours of lapping in a stint with no slowing down except for yellow flags, hops out to give the car to his teammate, looks at data of how to drive faster, looks at teammate's data and thinks "how can I drive faster?", eats and thinks "how can I drive faster?" , rests for a few hours and then gets in the car for another 2+ hour stint. Rinse and repeat for 24 hours and then again for 5 years in a row and you have potentially mastered the Nordschliefe in a way a development driver has not. Even one as good as Mero.
On a perfect lap from Mero, he is probably pretty close to a world class race car driver who also knows the ring very well. How close? We can't be sure because the Corvette racers dont really know the track like Mero does. But Porsche has a pool of very fast drivers who do know the place and it gives them the edge in absolute lap times. Could Estre beat Mero's time in a ZR1? I think so, given enough orientation to the car. It wouldn't be by 10 seconds but it might be 3.
Also, as an fyi, Estre set the street car time for Porsche by hopping out on the track for about an hour that day. Consistency and speed allowed him to get right to it. Most of the devleopment work was done by others. He had driven it before at the ring for sure but he just went out and nailed it. He said he might have been slightlly faster but he had been driving the GT3 or GTE car in a race the weekend before and it messed him up a bit due to the difference in grip. Of course the hallmark of the GT3RS is confidence... the integrity of the package and the NA motor without huge spikes in torque gives the driver confidence that most street cars do not... including the GT2RS. And that helps vs. a car like the ZR1.
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sidewinder77 (04-04-2020)