When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Forgive my ignorance; I'm not a track savvy person. Are ME cars taking a later apex to carry over speed, vs. the Vette relying on trail-braking early and picking an early apex to power out of a turn?
No. A later Apex does not carry more speed in the beginning part of the corner. Typically big power cars lend themselves to taking a later Apex so the wheel can be straightened and power can be added off corner.
In reality if you want to go fast you need to Apex as early as you can carrying as much speed as possible down to the Apex unwind a wheel as early as possible use the entire track and go back Full Throttle as quickly as possible. Does not matter what kind of car you're in.
Forgive my ignorance; I'm not a track savvy person. Are ME cars taking a later apex to carry over speed, vs. the Vette relying on trail-braking early and picking an early apex to power out of a turn?
Taking in impressions of the track folks, it seems the Vette powers out of a turn more aggressively and the trick is to tame the rear waggle; do the ME and RE cars get light on the front (most seem to have much narrower front tire width vs. the Corvette)?
A Corvette comes off the corner less aggressively because it does not have as much traction typically as a mid-engine or rear engine car. You will often times find yourself dealing with more oversteer in a Corvette as compared to the other cars. That's why so many people like the nanny's that the Corvette has now because it makes them easier to drive.
So would a Corvette have to brake earlier, at a higher speed, to take advantage of front engine trail braking, and waiting to make a late apex turn to get a straighter line out?
I'm not sure I'm understanding the brake earlier at a higher speed part? Most often times when you brake earlier you are going slower then when you stay on the gas longer and Brake later.
Big power cars that have less than desirable handling characteristics typically benefit from a late Apex style of driving a corner. Corvettes are not really that.
The fastest guys in the country trail brake them in the first part of the corner carrying big speed all the way to the Apex. Then as early as they can carrying as much speed as they can go back to throttle as early as possible and flat as early as possible. Tons of Speed is carried from the time they put on the brakes until the time they reach the Apex.
So the mantra seems to be "early in, early out", using momentum. The Corvette is a power car then? As such the momentum shift from the FE layout would lead to oversteer and a less controllable high speed exit as the weight shift to the rear is less pronounced?
So the mantra seems to be "early in, early out", using momentum. The Corvette is a power car then? As such the momentum shift from the FE layout would lead to oversteer and a less controllable high speed exit as the weight shift to the rear is less pronounced?
Here is arguably on of the best driver's in the country in a C7Z. I think he has 8 national championships now. This is how you drive one quickly. Same principles will apply to the ZR1. Watch where he goes to the brakes and where he releases and adds power.
For performance reference on the lap time this is as quick as an SCCA GT2 car lap record at this track and he's doing it in a street car. I found another video of a Driver putting in fast laps in his 458 Challenge racing car and his lap times were comparable to this but his corner speeds are lower. I posted that one as well and a good ME VS FE comparison.
So the mantra seems to be "early in, early out", using momentum. The Corvette is a power car then? As such the momentum shift from the FE layout would lead to oversteer and a less controllable high speed exit as the weight shift to the rear is less pronounced?
In my C6Z against 911GT3's, I can carry more speed into the corners and at the apex. There's where I have to make up time. They can get on the power earlier and harder out of the corner with more rear end stability to due to the weight transfer.
People who "point n shoot" with vette's generally aren't fast. You need to carry speed into the corner and at the apex. This carry more speed and keep the car loaded up does make it more prone snap oversteer and such but that's just how it goes.
no dry sump chevy has gone boom...that I know off, since it has been in the C6 and C7...I think the first iteration (06-09) did have an issue on right turns at 1G but that was fixed. Pretty certain the C7ZR1 isn't gonna have any problems there either... Far as over engineering, well, GM did that too on this and the past one...find me another car where you can literally side step the clutch at 4000 rpm under launch control on a 650hp+ car with a warranty that won't cost you 200 grand...there is over engineering in chevy too, but I appreciate the fit and finish comment since I also own two Porsche cars and 2 Chevys... though I track both chevy and Porsche just as much, and they have been very reliable to date... your experience may vary I suppose
The LS engines had issues with long high G left hand turns. That is why C5 owners were told to run a quart over fill when tracking the car.
Early C6 Zs had the same problem but that went away when they increased the dry sump capacity by adding the side tank. Haven't heard of any C7s having the same issue and they have been tracked heavily since 2014. GM does recommend maintaining oil level at 10.3 quarts when using the cars on track.
I seriously doubt there is a similar issue to the early C6 Z. Besides it is rare to run on a track that has a long high G left hand turn.
I'm not sure I'm understanding the brake earlier at a higher speed part? Most often times when you brake earlier you are going slower then when you stay on the gas longer and Brake later.
Big power cars that have less than desirable handling characteristics typically benefit from a late Apex style of driving a corner. Corvettes are not really that.
The fastest guys in the country trail brake them in the first part of the corner carrying big speed all the way to the Apex. Then as early as they can carrying as much speed as they can go back to throttle as early as possible and flat as early as possible. Tons of Speed is carried from the time they put on the brakes until the time they reach the Apex.
The GS, Z06 & ZR1 can have their chassis/brakes/tires set up very similarly, so in slower corners where aero has little effect, their cornering speeds will be similar. However, the Z06 & ZR1 will attain higher speeds on the straights, so they will need to brake a bit earlier to bring their speed down to the same as the GS, assuming all the cars are under maximum/threshold braking with similar brakes.
The theory of late apexing is that a little speed is given up in the first part of the corner up to the apex, then the exit can be opened up more quickly as the steering is unwound & more throttle can be fed in earlier (compared with a geometrically symmetrical line through the corner), achieving a higher average speed over a much longer time/distance on the straight compared with the distance covered in the corner. This helps if 2 GS's are on the track, but as Poorsha pointed out, all the time he gained in his Z06 over the GS was mostly on the straights due to the extra power advantage. Where the ZR1 will show an advantage is in fast corners (100 mph up) as the downforce will allow higher cornering speeds compared with the Z06 & GS.
I'm not sure about trail braking, since this is done while cornering, & at the limit, may upset the balance & cause a spin. This should be explored on a skid pad, as you don't want to find out on the track, where intimate encounters with rocks, trees or walls can really spoil your day. In the end, how fast one goes on a track probably depends more on the size of the cojones/wallet of the driver, or whether the car has a full cage. YMMV.
Last edited by G fix needy; 05-20-2018 at 09:31 PM.
I've tracked front wheel drive, Porsche 911 early year cars, BMW M, Camaro 1LE, and now the Z06. Low HP is all about conserving speed, no brakes, scrub with tires as much as possible, 911 love late apex, early brake, coast in deep past apex, tap brake, when the car rotates, hammer the gas and see yah, Camaro was all bout early entry and rotate with gas. My Z06 with stock rims has too much rear grip, not enough front foot print, I'm moving to the 18x11 and 18x13 to go for a more balanced feel. Watched videos of those with this setup like a miata/944 on steroids. With stock rims IMO, it forces you to diamond off the turns to get back on throttle as fast as possible, if you throttle up too early you invoke push.
The GS, Z06 & ZR1 can have their chassis/brakes/tires set up very similarly, so in slower corners where aero has little effect, their cornering speeds will be similar. However, the Z06 & ZR1 will attain higher speeds on the straights, so they will need to brake a bit earlier to bring their speed down to the same as the GS, assuming all the cars are under maximum/threshold braking with similar brakes.
The theory of late apexing is that a little speed is given up in the first part of the corner up to the apex, then the exit can be opened up more quickly as the steering is unwound & more throttle can be fed in earlier (compared with a geometrically symmetrical line through the corner), achieving a higher average speed over a much longer time/distance on the straight compared with the distance covered in the corner. This helps if 2 GS's are on the track, but as Poorsha pointed out, all the time he gained in his Z06 over the GS was mostly on the straights due to the extra power advantage. Where the ZR1 will show an advantage is in fast corners (100 mph up) as the downforce will allow higher cornering speeds compared with the Z06 & GS.
I'm not sure about trail braking, since this is done while cornering, & at the limit, may upset the balance & cause a spin. This should be explored on a skid pad, as you don't want to find out on the track, where intimate encounters with rocks, trees or walls can really spoil your day. In the end, how fast one goes on a track probably depends more on the size of the cojones/wallet of the driver, or whether the car has a full cage. YMMV.
If two GS's are on track the Driver that's better and carries the most speed into and through the corners will put down the lowest lap times. Same with any of the C7's.
Driving corners using a late apex technique doesn't necessarily equate to lower lap times. It results in an easier car to manage off corner. For those Driver's that are more comfortable this way it may result in lower lap times for them.
A particular corner may require a late apex but a well balanced car does not. If you aren't trail braking you are lapping slower than you could be.
Corner exit is easy and most good Driver's are similar. Entry and mid corner speed is the separation.
So the mantra seems to be "early in, early out", using momentum. The Corvette is a power car then? As such the momentum shift from the FE layout would lead to oversteer and a less controllable high speed exit as the weight shift to the rear is less pronounced?
"Early in and early out", I've never heard of this before and it sounds like a recipe for running off the track at the track out portion of the corner.
I assume you're talking about the turn in being early, and then getting on the power early at the apex. The only way this would work would be if your corner speed is way below maximum. The whole point of discussing cornering technique is to minimize lap times. If you're driving below the maximum speed possible, which is what most of us are doing most of the time, then you can play around with lines, etc.
Most instructors, books, schools preach the slow in, fast out technique which basically means a late apex which allows an earlier safe return to the throttle. The higher powered the car generally needs a later apex than a low powered car. The Early in, Early out technique is something that sounds like a defensive driving technique when you're trying to prevent a faster car from passing you.
All cars are momentum cars, even the really fast ones.
However, sometimes you need to sacrifice a smidgen of corner speed to get a cleaner exit. Even 1 mph more on an exit will allow you to be traveling 1mph faster than a comparable car. And 1 mph, over the length of an entire straight, is significant and more valuable than any small gain had by overdriving the car in to the turn.
Late apexes worked really well in the olden days of motorcycle racing but rarely worked in a car. Now even the MotoGP motorcycle racers are early apexing.
The fastest drivers turn in as early as they can and carry absolutely as much speed as they can to the apex. They then maintain that speed all the way through the corner and onto the following straights.
If they have to lift at exit they have turned in too early. If they can stay flat while using every last inch of the track, like Corey Friedman does as he exits T10 at Summit Main up onto the main straight in the video I posted, then they have it just right.
It was best said above. All cars are momentum cars. Make the cornering arc as big as possible and carry as much speed as you can all the time.
Some cars are much faster than other's like the new ZR1. This new ZR1 is certainly one of and may prove itself to be the fastest production car of all time on american road courses.
You guys need to stop before I put my Vette on track to see how she trail brakes, my mustangs do not like that too much. They definitely do not enjoy left foot braking, I have to be super easy with it.
Also, the tracks I run like CMP, RA, Roebling, and a few others in the Southeast are not early apex friendly. CMP's whole track is late apex just about. Of course my C6Z has not been on track so it is different than what I am used to.
Well I did just remember some corners you can early apex and trail-brake into at those tracks. It has been years since I have been on those tracks, I went to RA last December and before that it was 2014 that I had been on track last lol.
"Early in and early out", I've never heard of this before and it sounds like a recipe for running off the track at the track out portion of the corner.
I assume you're talking about the turn in being early, and then getting on the power early at the apex. The only way this would work would be if your corner speed is way below maximum. The whole point of discussing cornering technique is to minimize lap times. If you're driving below the maximum speed possible, which is what most of us are doing most of the time, then you can play around with lines, etc.
Most instructors, books, schools preach the slow in, fast out technique which basically means a late apex which allows an earlier safe return to the throttle. The higher powered the car generally needs a later apex than a low powered car. The Early in, Early out technique is something that sounds like a defensive driving technique when you're trying to prevent a faster car from passing you.
This is true, I think they may be talking about normal turn in or some corners like T1 at Roebline or going into "Oak Tree" at VIR. You can turn in early and trail brake those corners. A 90 degree corner is a no go, I can see a normal turn in with trail braking but what you said comes into play. Early in, early out is something that is against everything I have ever heard.
Originally Posted by Suns_PSD
All cars are momentum cars, even the really fast ones.
However, sometimes you need to sacrifice a smidgen of corner speed to get a cleaner exit. Even 1 mph more on an exit will allow you to be traveling 1mph faster than a comparable car. And 1 mph, over the length of an entire straight, is significant and more valuable than any small gain had by overdriving the car in to the turn.
Late apexes worked really well in the olden days of motorcycle racing but rarely worked in a car. Now even the MotoGP motorcycle racers are early apexing.
I can agree with that statement, it is all about how you drive them.
1 MPH is 1 MPH but botch T7 at RA with early apexing, you can lose 5+ MPH and that little turbo Miata seems to have 600 rwhp until you can catch him halfway down the backstraight. He will have the better line late apexing and getting on the throttle a couple seconds earlier. You can trail brake a tad taking the normal line, which puts me roughly the same speed down into 10A. That equals out lap time-wise.
Here is a trace from T1 at VIR. Both are C7 Z06 but different drivers. Both have about the same maximum speed prior to braking for T1. Both have about the same apex speed in T1. Yet the red line car gains 0.4s over that 800 ft simply because the car rolled more speed down to the apex. To Steve's point, once you reach a certain point of proficiency most time is going to be gained in the speed carried from the start of braking to the apex.
That video is Cory Friedman, he has been racing since he was in college, dad owns Porsche race shop and had raced at several pro events, that is a full blown Cup car. Hard to compare unless you are driving a professional setup $200K car
Here is a trace from T1 at VIR. Both are C7 Z06 but different drivers. Both have about the same maximum speed prior to braking for T1. Both have about the same apex speed in T1. Yet the red line car gains 0.4s over that 800 ft simply because the car rolled more speed down to the apex. To Steve's point, once you reach a certain point of proficiency most time is going to be gained in the speed carried from the start of braking to the apex.
05-19-2018, 09:17 PM
, my mustangs do not like that too much. They definitely do not enjoy left foot braking, I have to be super easy with it.
.