Porsche guy needs convincing.
05-23-2018, 09:29 AM
#101
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2005
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I can'r imagine anyone saying a modern Porsche 911 is ugly. They are financially ugly (to buy and maintain) for sure, but ugly to drive and look at, um no.
Have you seen the ZR1?! Adam West must be thrilled that the Bat-Mobile has been updated.
The thing for me and Porsche is that no matter how wealthy I become in time, I'm not sure I'll ever be willing to **** away money like that. The variants that compare favorably in performance to say a lightly modified $65K C7 GS cost 2-3x as much to buy, and probably 5-10x more to maintain. The value just isn't there for me.
Have you seen the ZR1?! Adam West must be thrilled that the Bat-Mobile has been updated.
The thing for me and Porsche is that no matter how wealthy I become in time, I'm not sure I'll ever be willing to **** away money like that. The variants that compare favorably in performance to say a lightly modified $65K C7 GS cost 2-3x as much to buy, and probably 5-10x more to maintain. The value just isn't there for me.
It happens all the time on this forum, as I'm sure it happens on other forums.
Someone will comment "yea, it beat the XYZ car by 2 seconds a lap at ABC track, but it's still ugly".
I have always loved the look of a Porsche 911 variant, all the way back to the first print ad for one that I saw around 1975 or so.
Honestly, extravagant maintenance costs for the Porsche is just a myth, IMO. There are guys running mid to upper 9's in the newer 991 TTS with bolt-ons and they are having zero issues with reliability.
Oil changes are oil changes.
I actually really like the look of the new ZR1.
The only newer body styles that I haven't really found favorable are the base C6 and C7.
I like the wide body versions.
I don't recall in any thread that I have responded to about "performance specs" that I have taken a negative stance against the "look " of any car.
I always try to stick to the facts being discussed.
Looks are so subjective.
However, this thread is about performance and in that area the ZR1 shines.
This next year or so is going to show just how capable even a factory stock ZR1 is and that is going to be a fun read.
05-23-2018, 10:28 AM
#102
Melting Slicks
It's not surprising at all that you can do a similar time in a heavily modded modern Corvette compared to a decade old Porsche driven in an HPDE environment.
Your statements are not true of a showroom floor C7 Z06 nor is the comparison adequate given HPDE environment.
Your statements are not true of a showroom floor C7 Z06 nor is the comparison adequate given HPDE environment.
I think Sean proved that a 2015 C7Z could be tracked with success but I saw more of them on jack stands at DE events with a multitude of issues than I care to remember. I would not even consider one of the earlier cars. I do see many people successfully enjoying their 2017 and up model year C7Z's on the track with little to no issues at all.
As far as where and when lap times are put down how does that make any difference? Meaning whether it's during a race event, when qualifying for a race event or at a DE why does that matter? Is a 1:32 during qualifying for a race at Laguna Seca somehow different than a 1:32 put down at a DE event? I think both are equally fast if I am not mistaken?
These cars (C7Z, C7ZR1, GT3, GT2) will meet most often at DE events because in most cases they aren't full on racing cars. Obviously then the personal performance comparisons that are made most often times will be at DE events. It's been my experience that at DE events none of us slow down just because it's a DE event. When my friends, who race regularly with PCA, are at a DE event they are trying their best to circulate around at the same pace they would at a racing event.
In truth I love running with PCA. That's what I know because I have been doing it for so long. Most of my best friends are in PCA. However that does not make their cars overly fast. The fastest cars by lap time in our club are Cup Cars, Corvette's and Viper's. There's not one street legal Porsche that tops the list of fast cars when measuring lap time regardless of when and where they put that lap time down whether it be during a race, a time trial or a DE event.
As far as what you make mention of in a previous post "if you're a good driver you would be getting paid for it"? There are many Driver's that are good enough to race professionally who, for whatever reason, don't have the funding. Even at the top levels of Motorsport often times Driver's have to pay their way by bringing their own sponsorship deals. I don't think your statement is correct in many circumstances.
Of owners who track their C7Z's Sean was one of the very best, very fastest Driver's. That's a fact. His lap times in it were comparable to, if not faster than in some cases, race lap times of cars in classes regarded to be quite quick. There are only a hand full of other C7Z Owner's in the Country who are legitimately quick but none of them do quite as good a job of documenting their performance as does Sean.
Anyway fortunately for me and the fact that I am curious about the performance of the ZR1 he has one now. I am very excited to see how it works in the hands of a real world Owner who's legitimately quick in an environment comparable to where I use my cars.
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05-23-2018, 03:42 PM
#104
Safety Car
I think what is being said is because, as I recall, you felt you should just be able to "get in" and go to a track day and be fine in your C7Z? I don't think that's what happened so you personally have an issue with the C7Z in general?
I think Sean proved that a 2015 C7Z could be tracked with success but I saw more of them on jack stands at DE events with a multitude of issues than I care to remember. I would not even consider one of the earlier cars. I do see many people successfully enjoying their 2017 and up model year C7Z's on the track with little to no issues at all.
As far as where and when lap times are put down how does that make any difference? Meaning whether it's during a race event, when qualifying for a race event or at a DE why does that matter? Is a 1:32 during qualifying for a race at Laguna Seca somehow different than a 1:32 put down at a DE event? I think both are equally fast if I am not mistaken?
These cars (C7Z, C7ZR1, GT3, GT2) will meet most often at DE events because in most cases they aren't full on racing cars. Obviously then the personal performance comparisons that are made most often times will be at DE events. It's been my experience that at DE events none of us slow down just because it's a DE event. When my friends, who race regularly with PCA, are at a DE event they are trying their best to circulate around at the same pace they would at a racing event.
In truth I love running with PCA. That's what I know because I have been doing it for so long. Most of my best friends are in PCA. However that does not make their cars overly fast. The fastest cars by lap time in our club are Cup Cars, Corvette's and Viper's. There's not one street legal Porsche that tops the list of fast cars when measuring lap time regardless of when and where they put that lap time down whether it be during a race, a time trial or a DE event.
As far as what you make mention of in a previous post "if you're a good driver you would be getting paid for it"? There are many Driver's that are good enough to race professionally who, for whatever reason, don't have the funding. Even at the top levels of Motorsport often times Driver's have to pay their way by bringing their own sponsorship deals. I don't think your statement is correct in many circumstances.
Of owners who track their C7Z's Sean was one of the very best, very fastest Driver's. That's a fact. His lap times in it were comparable to, if not faster than in some cases, race lap times of cars in classes regarded to be quite quick. There are only a hand full of other C7Z Owner's in the Country who are legitimately quick but none of them do quite as good a job of documenting their performance as does Sean.
Anyway fortunately for me and the fact that I am curious about the performance of the ZR1 he has one now. I am very excited to see how it works in the hands of a real world Owner who's legitimately quick in an environment comparable to where I use my cars.
I think Sean proved that a 2015 C7Z could be tracked with success but I saw more of them on jack stands at DE events with a multitude of issues than I care to remember. I would not even consider one of the earlier cars. I do see many people successfully enjoying their 2017 and up model year C7Z's on the track with little to no issues at all.
As far as where and when lap times are put down how does that make any difference? Meaning whether it's during a race event, when qualifying for a race event or at a DE why does that matter? Is a 1:32 during qualifying for a race at Laguna Seca somehow different than a 1:32 put down at a DE event? I think both are equally fast if I am not mistaken?
These cars (C7Z, C7ZR1, GT3, GT2) will meet most often at DE events because in most cases they aren't full on racing cars. Obviously then the personal performance comparisons that are made most often times will be at DE events. It's been my experience that at DE events none of us slow down just because it's a DE event. When my friends, who race regularly with PCA, are at a DE event they are trying their best to circulate around at the same pace they would at a racing event.
In truth I love running with PCA. That's what I know because I have been doing it for so long. Most of my best friends are in PCA. However that does not make their cars overly fast. The fastest cars by lap time in our club are Cup Cars, Corvette's and Viper's. There's not one street legal Porsche that tops the list of fast cars when measuring lap time regardless of when and where they put that lap time down whether it be during a race, a time trial or a DE event.
As far as what you make mention of in a previous post "if you're a good driver you would be getting paid for it"? There are many Driver's that are good enough to race professionally who, for whatever reason, don't have the funding. Even at the top levels of Motorsport often times Driver's have to pay their way by bringing their own sponsorship deals. I don't think your statement is correct in many circumstances.
Of owners who track their C7Z's Sean was one of the very best, very fastest Driver's. That's a fact. His lap times in it were comparable to, if not faster than in some cases, race lap times of cars in classes regarded to be quite quick. There are only a hand full of other C7Z Owner's in the Country who are legitimately quick but none of them do quite as good a job of documenting their performance as does Sean.
Anyway fortunately for me and the fact that I am curious about the performance of the ZR1 he has one now. I am very excited to see how it works in the hands of a real world Owner who's legitimately quick in an environment comparable to where I use my cars.
Many of the folks that are appear satisfied and have a lot of driving on track simply have...umm bad memory. We struggled immensely to get GM to produce better cooling for the engine in 2015. Once that second radiator came out some of the same guys that either kept quiet or called us liars in 2015 installed the second radiator on their car while claiming they didn't need it.
When and how matters. If you set a quick time on lap 2 but tow the car home on lap 10, what you will remember is the tow. We're not pros. HPDE is play time, there is no winning. Many drive without timing. Your average C7 Z06 driver will go around Laguna Seca 20 seconds slower than Randy Pobst. At most HPDEs overtaking maneuvers that you see in wheel to wheel series are actually against the rules, big difference. You will get booted off the track if you do too many of those.
I give rides all the time in HPDE, and depending on who it is I might drive 10-15 seconds/lap slower. Is a you tube video of some guy passing me at that time worth anything? Most HPDE drivers wouldn't risk trading paint to pass or prevent passing. HPDE is not racing and it never was. You may have a buddy to spar with who doesn't mind totaling his car and then the video would be more realistic but that is hardly the case in most HPDE footage.
05-23-2018, 03:51 PM
#105
Melting Slicks
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1594368283
I was sort of in love with the car from December 2014 to March 2015 when it started overheating and breaking down. I simply could not get enough seat time in it. That's not to say it's not a desirable sports car but it just wasn't built to be driven hard for extended periods of time. Plenty of guys like Alfa Romeos despite the fact that you drive with a screwdriver in hand.
Many of the folks that are appear satisfied and have a lot of driving on track simply have...umm bad memory. We struggled immensely to get GM to produce better cooling for the engine in 2015. Once that second radiator came out some of the same guys that either kept quiet or called us liars in 2015 installed the second radiator on their car while claiming they didn't need it.
When and how matters. If you set a quick time on lap 2 but tow the car home on lap 10, what you will remember is the tow. We're not pros. HPDE is play time, there is no winning. Many drive without timing. Your average C7 Z06 driver will go around Laguna Seca 20 seconds slower than Randy Pobst. At most HPDEs overtaking maneuvers that you see in wheel to wheel series are actually against the rules, big difference. You will get booted off the track if you do too many of those.
I give rides all the time in HPDE, and depending on who it is I might drive 10-15 seconds/lap slower. Is a you tube video of some guy passing me at that time worth anything? Most HPDE drivers wouldn't risk trading paint to pass or prevent passing. HPDE is not racing and it never was. You may have a buddy to spar with who doesn't mind totaling his car and then the video would be more realistic but that is hardly the case in most HPDE footage.
I was sort of in love with the car from December 2014 to March 2015 when it started overheating and breaking down. I simply could not get enough seat time in it. That's not to say it's not a desirable sports car but it just wasn't built to be driven hard for extended periods of time. Plenty of guys like Alfa Romeos despite the fact that you drive with a screwdriver in hand.
Many of the folks that are appear satisfied and have a lot of driving on track simply have...umm bad memory. We struggled immensely to get GM to produce better cooling for the engine in 2015. Once that second radiator came out some of the same guys that either kept quiet or called us liars in 2015 installed the second radiator on their car while claiming they didn't need it.
When and how matters. If you set a quick time on lap 2 but tow the car home on lap 10, what you will remember is the tow. We're not pros. HPDE is play time, there is no winning. Many drive without timing. Your average C7 Z06 driver will go around Laguna Seca 20 seconds slower than Randy Pobst. At most HPDEs overtaking maneuvers that you see in wheel to wheel series are actually against the rules, big difference. You will get booted off the track if you do too many of those.
I give rides all the time in HPDE, and depending on who it is I might drive 10-15 seconds/lap slower. Is a you tube video of some guy passing me at that time worth anything? Most HPDE drivers wouldn't risk trading paint to pass or prevent passing. HPDE is not racing and it never was. You may have a buddy to spar with who doesn't mind totaling his car and then the video would be more realistic but that is hardly the case in most HPDE footage.
05-23-2018, 05:02 PM
#106
Melting Slicks
I unfortunately have been in that situation and it made me feel horrible when I totaled a BMW that turned down on me at Summit Point Main during qualifying into turn 9. IMO it was a stupid way to drive at the amateur level especially when the Driver was out of class, slow and just holding me up.
If I was 15 to 20 seconds slower than Pobst I would know other sports are beckoning me to play them instead. Maybe 3 to 4 would be acceptable but I would be pissed at myself for being so slow in the car and doing my damnedest to find more speed.
My pace is exactly the same whether I am racing or I am driving in a DE. I started off in this sport in 1991 W2W racing and didn't know any better until 2003 when I went to my first DE at VIR. Then whenever I went to DE's because I did both I just waited for point by's. Everything else I did was the same. I was always quicker in DE's, everyone was, because there weren't as many out of class cars in my way.
Laughable when I hear people say DE's aren't racing like that has something to do with their skill as a driver or their pace. It's like they are trying to make themselves appear more important or better than they really are and feel the need to be condescending to others. If their lap times are slow in DE's they are slow when they are racing and vice versa.
All this is neither here nor there and way off topic. Reality is that until someone goes full cage and decides to go racing the place where you will see ZR1's being driven on a track the most is at HPDE events. Driven well there's a high probability that they will be faster than every single Porsche at DE events. You can care or not that it's done at a DE but I promise you plenty of people in attendance want to see how quick the latest and greatest is and that has a high probability of being a ZR1.
If I was 15 to 20 seconds slower than Pobst I would know other sports are beckoning me to play them instead. Maybe 3 to 4 would be acceptable but I would be pissed at myself for being so slow in the car and doing my damnedest to find more speed.
My pace is exactly the same whether I am racing or I am driving in a DE. I started off in this sport in 1991 W2W racing and didn't know any better until 2003 when I went to my first DE at VIR. Then whenever I went to DE's because I did both I just waited for point by's. Everything else I did was the same. I was always quicker in DE's, everyone was, because there weren't as many out of class cars in my way.
Laughable when I hear people say DE's aren't racing like that has something to do with their skill as a driver or their pace. It's like they are trying to make themselves appear more important or better than they really are and feel the need to be condescending to others. If their lap times are slow in DE's they are slow when they are racing and vice versa.
All this is neither here nor there and way off topic. Reality is that until someone goes full cage and decides to go racing the place where you will see ZR1's being driven on a track the most is at HPDE events. Driven well there's a high probability that they will be faster than every single Porsche at DE events. You can care or not that it's done at a DE but I promise you plenty of people in attendance want to see how quick the latest and greatest is and that has a high probability of being a ZR1.
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05-23-2018, 07:38 PM
#107
I unfortunately have been in that situation and it made me feel horrible when I totaled a BMW that turned down on me at Summit Point Main during qualifying into turn 9. IMO it was a stupid way to drive at the amateur level especially when the Driver was out of class, slow and just holding me up.
If I was 15 to 20 seconds slower than Pobst I would know other sports are beckoning me to play them instead. Maybe 3 to 4 would be acceptable but I would be pissed at myself for being so slow in the car and doing my damnedest to find more speed.
My pace is exactly the same whether I am racing or I am driving in a DE. I started off in this sport in 1991 W2W racing and didn't know any better until 2003 when I went to my first DE at VIR. Then whenever I went to DE's because I did both I just waited for point by's. Everything else I did was the same. I was always quicker in DE's, everyone was, because there weren't as many out of class cars in my way.
Laughable when I hear people say DE's aren't racing like that has something to do with their skill as a driver or their pace. It's like they are trying to make themselves appear more important or better than they really are and feel the need to be condescending to others. If their lap times are slow in DE's they are slow when they are racing and vice versa.
All this is neither here nor there and way off topic. Reality is that until someone goes full cage and decides to go racing the place where you will see ZR1's being driven on a track the most is at HPDE events. Driven well there's a high probability that they will be faster than every single Porsche at DE events. You can care or not that it's done at a DE but I promise you plenty of people in attendance want to see how quick the latest and greatest is and that has a high probability of being a ZR1.
If I was 15 to 20 seconds slower than Pobst I would know other sports are beckoning me to play them instead. Maybe 3 to 4 would be acceptable but I would be pissed at myself for being so slow in the car and doing my damnedest to find more speed.
My pace is exactly the same whether I am racing or I am driving in a DE. I started off in this sport in 1991 W2W racing and didn't know any better until 2003 when I went to my first DE at VIR. Then whenever I went to DE's because I did both I just waited for point by's. Everything else I did was the same. I was always quicker in DE's, everyone was, because there weren't as many out of class cars in my way.
Laughable when I hear people say DE's aren't racing like that has something to do with their skill as a driver or their pace. It's like they are trying to make themselves appear more important or better than they really are and feel the need to be condescending to others. If their lap times are slow in DE's they are slow when they are racing and vice versa.
All this is neither here nor there and way off topic. Reality is that until someone goes full cage and decides to go racing the place where you will see ZR1's being driven on a track the most is at HPDE events. Driven well there's a high probability that they will be faster than every single Porsche at DE events. You can care or not that it's done at a DE but I promise you plenty of people in attendance want to see how quick the latest and greatest is and that has a high probability of being a ZR1.
What you describe is pretty much my experience with NASA and Open Track days at Utah Motorsports Campus, near SLC. Most times we are on the east or west half track with short straights good for around 130. There are few high end stock Porsches that come out to play. They have their own owners group track day which appears well attended. I haven't been invited
I am only in my second season driving the Z06 on the track. Now in HPDE 3/4. I have yet to be passed by any Porsche that was driven to the track. A TT category Porsche, stripped/roll caged etc has. It seems likely the ZRI will handle the street driven Porsches just fine.
I have a standing invitation to Ford GT owners who will drive their cars to the track here and run with me in HPDE3 and make me wish I had the connections, and extra 400g's, to have bought a Ford GT
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Racingswh (05-23-2018)
05-23-2018, 08:19 PM
#108
Melting Slicks
What you describe is pretty much my experience with NASA and Open Track days at Utah Motorsports Campus, near SLC. Most times we are on the east or west half track with short straights good for around 130. There are few high end stock Porsches that come out to play. They have their own owners group track day which appears well attended. I haven't been invited
I am only in my second season driving the Z06 on the track. Now in HPDE 3/4. I have yet to be passed by any Porsche that was driven to the track. A TT category Porsche, stripped/roll caged etc has. It seems likely the ZRI will handle the street driven Porsches just fine.
I have a standing invitation to Ford GT owners who will drive their cars to the track here and run with me in HPDE3 and make me wish I had the connections, and extra 400g's, to have bought a Ford GT
I am only in my second season driving the Z06 on the track. Now in HPDE 3/4. I have yet to be passed by any Porsche that was driven to the track. A TT category Porsche, stripped/roll caged etc has. It seems likely the ZRI will handle the street driven Porsches just fine.
I have a standing invitation to Ford GT owners who will drive their cars to the track here and run with me in HPDE3 and make me wish I had the connections, and extra 400g's, to have bought a Ford GT
I make no apologies for loving Corvette's. I am not sure I would push a Ford GT into the street and leave it there though.
Porsche guys in my experience are awesome. They drive with a tremendous amount of respect for their machinery as well as other's and overall safety is important.
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mjcourt (05-23-2018)
05-23-2018, 08:37 PM
#109
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1594368283
When and how matters. If you set a quick time on lap 2 but tow the car home on lap 10, what you will remember is the tow. We're not pros. HPDE is play time, there is no winning. Many drive without timing. Your average C7 Z06 driver will go around Laguna Seca 20 seconds slower than Randy Pobst. At most HPDEs overtaking maneuvers that you see in wheel to wheel series are actually against the rules, big difference. You will get booted off the track if you do too many of those.
I give rides all the time in HPDE, and depending on who it is I might drive 10-15 seconds/lap slower. Is a you tube video of some guy passing me at that time worth anything? Most HPDE drivers wouldn't risk trading paint to pass or prevent passing. HPDE is not racing and it never was. You may have a buddy to spar with who doesn't mind totaling his car and then the video would be more realistic but that is hardly the case in most HPDE footage.
When and how matters. If you set a quick time on lap 2 but tow the car home on lap 10, what you will remember is the tow. We're not pros. HPDE is play time, there is no winning. Many drive without timing. Your average C7 Z06 driver will go around Laguna Seca 20 seconds slower than Randy Pobst. At most HPDEs overtaking maneuvers that you see in wheel to wheel series are actually against the rules, big difference. You will get booted off the track if you do too many of those.
I give rides all the time in HPDE, and depending on who it is I might drive 10-15 seconds/lap slower. Is a you tube video of some guy passing me at that time worth anything? Most HPDE drivers wouldn't risk trading paint to pass or prevent passing. HPDE is not racing and it never was. You may have a buddy to spar with who doesn't mind totaling his car and then the video would be more realistic but that is hardly the case in most HPDE footage.
In terms of your future tests I seem to understand there is a 2-step process:
1. As close as you can to flat out
2. Test proximity to flat out times that can be obtained with some clever gear selection to keep average rpms lower
I present to you that, in my view, it is test (1) that is useful to 99%. The reason being, most drivers don't have either the willingness or ability to achieve your near flat out times while reducing the strain on the vehicle.
1. As close as you can to flat out
2. Test proximity to flat out times that can be obtained with some clever gear selection to keep average rpms lower
I present to you that, in my view, it is test (1) that is useful to 99%. The reason being, most drivers don't have either the willingness or ability to achieve your near flat out times while reducing the strain on the vehicle.
05-23-2018, 08:48 PM
#110
Funny enough we currently completed a market study and are in the beginning stages of looking for a warehouse in SLC to expand the company westward . It would be cool to have a car there to hit tracks out West. Long tow from here.
I make no apologies for loving Corvette's. I am not sure I would push a Ford GT into the street and leave it there though.
Porsche guys in my experience are awesome. They drive with a tremendous amount of respect for their machinery as well as other's and overall safety is important.
I make no apologies for loving Corvette's. I am not sure I would push a Ford GT into the street and leave it there though.
Porsche guys in my experience are awesome. They drive with a tremendous amount of respect for their machinery as well as other's and overall safety is important.
Goodness, I wouldn't park a GT on the street either.
I followed Fords Le Mans campaign in '67 in real time and have been a fan ever since.
But I think it is a shame for high performance cars of any marque to be kept in the garage and polished.
I can't afford a Ford GT or a Porsche GT2RS. Kudos to those more successful in life than me who can. But if I could I would take them to the track
When I am sitting in a chair contemplating my imminent death a few years from now, will I not regret "using up" my Z at the track
FWIW, one of my other passions is ultramarathon trail running. I see no value in not using up my knees. They can be replaced too.
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Telepierre (05-24-2018)
05-23-2018, 09:08 PM
#111
Melting Slicks
Nice!
I am headed to LeMans for the first time in a couple weeks. Get to see all the marques in question go head to head. Should be fun!!! Hopefully Corvette racing can muster a win there this year. We will see soon enough.
I am headed to LeMans for the first time in a couple weeks. Get to see all the marques in question go head to head. Should be fun!!! Hopefully Corvette racing can muster a win there this year. We will see soon enough.
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desmophile (05-23-2018)
05-24-2018, 10:01 AM
#112
Going to Le Mans is going to be a great experience, but it's not at all representative of what we drive on the street. If I had to guess, I'd say it's going to be Porsche's turn to win.
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Racingswh (05-26-2018)
05-24-2018, 05:01 PM
#113
I've only gone once, it was amazing, it is more than a race, event. Go prepared for every kind of weather, loved walking the track, taking shuttle to back side of track etc.. Carney food is awesome. Even the French love the big US V8
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Racingswh (05-24-2018)
05-25-2018, 01:59 PM
#114
Safety Car
I unfortunately have been in that situation and it made me feel horrible when I totaled a BMW that turned down on me at Summit Point Main during qualifying into turn 9. IMO it was a stupid way to drive at the amateur level especially when the Driver was out of class, slow and just holding me up.
If I was 15 to 20 seconds slower than Pobst I would know other sports are beckoning me to play them instead. Maybe 3 to 4 would be acceptable but I would be pissed at myself for being so slow in the car and doing my damnedest to find more speed.
My pace is exactly the same whether I am racing or I am driving in a DE. I started off in this sport in 1991 W2W racing and didn't know any better until 2003 when I went to my first DE at VIR. Then whenever I went to DE's because I did both I just waited for point by's. Everything else I did was the same. I was always quicker in DE's, everyone was, because there weren't as many out of class cars in my way.
Laughable when I hear people say DE's aren't racing like that has something to do with their skill as a driver or their pace. It's like they are trying to make themselves appear more important or better than they really are and feel the need to be condescending to others. If their lap times are slow in DE's they are slow when they are racing and vice versa.
All this is neither here nor there and way off topic. Reality is that until someone goes full cage and decides to go racing the place where you will see ZR1's being driven on a track the most is at HPDE events. Driven well there's a high probability that they will be faster than every single Porsche at DE events. You can care or not that it's done at a DE but I promise you plenty of people in attendance want to see how quick the latest and greatest is and that has a high probability of being a ZR1.
If I was 15 to 20 seconds slower than Pobst I would know other sports are beckoning me to play them instead. Maybe 3 to 4 would be acceptable but I would be pissed at myself for being so slow in the car and doing my damnedest to find more speed.
My pace is exactly the same whether I am racing or I am driving in a DE. I started off in this sport in 1991 W2W racing and didn't know any better until 2003 when I went to my first DE at VIR. Then whenever I went to DE's because I did both I just waited for point by's. Everything else I did was the same. I was always quicker in DE's, everyone was, because there weren't as many out of class cars in my way.
Laughable when I hear people say DE's aren't racing like that has something to do with their skill as a driver or their pace. It's like they are trying to make themselves appear more important or better than they really are and feel the need to be condescending to others. If their lap times are slow in DE's they are slow when they are racing and vice versa.
All this is neither here nor there and way off topic. Reality is that until someone goes full cage and decides to go racing the place where you will see ZR1's being driven on a track the most is at HPDE events. Driven well there's a high probability that they will be faster than every single Porsche at DE events. You can care or not that it's done at a DE but I promise you plenty of people in attendance want to see how quick the latest and greatest is and that has a high probability of being a ZR1.
Half the fun is going to be seeing you get booted off the track with racing maneuvers. I would also wouldn't mention "race" at the morning meeting. I got a talk down for 5 minutes at a NASA meeting just for saying the word.
I've been going to Laguna Seca for 5 years, 3 in my own C7 Z06. I've never seen one C7 Z06 dip under 1:40. By your reasoning all Corvette drivers are "unacceptably" slow.
Show me one video of a guy doing 1:36 in a stock C7 at Laguna? Does it even exist? I've seen a 1:39 from a C6 ZR1 that was heavily modded, but he seemed to come off the track every three to four laps for a cool down.
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Racingswh (05-25-2018)
05-25-2018, 10:19 PM
#115
Melting Slicks
I'll be at Laguna Seca June 30 and June 31. Let's bet $1,000 you can't get within 3 seconds or Randy's time in a stock C7 Z06, ie. 1:36.
Half the fun is going to be seeing you get booted off the track with racing maneuvers. I would also wouldn't mention "race" at the morning meeting. I got a talk down for 5 minutes at a NASA meeting just for saying the word.
I've been going to Laguna Seca for 5 years, 3 in my own C7 Z06. I've never seen one C7 Z06 dip under 1:40. By your reasoning all Corvette drivers are "unacceptably" slow.
Show me one video of a guy doing 1:36 in a stock C7 at Laguna? Does it even exist? I've seen a 1:39 from a C6 ZR1 that was heavily modded, but he seemed to come off the track every three to four laps for a cool down.
Half the fun is going to be seeing you get booted off the track with racing maneuvers. I would also wouldn't mention "race" at the morning meeting. I got a talk down for 5 minutes at a NASA meeting just for saying the word.
I've been going to Laguna Seca for 5 years, 3 in my own C7 Z06. I've never seen one C7 Z06 dip under 1:40. By your reasoning all Corvette drivers are "unacceptably" slow.
Show me one video of a guy doing 1:36 in a stock C7 at Laguna? Does it even exist? I've seen a 1:39 from a C6 ZR1 that was heavily modded, but he seemed to come off the track every three to four laps for a cool down.
I can do it in the fall of 2019 as 2018 is full already for me and wasn't expecting to make a trip like this to the West Coast. I want to add harnesses and a seat, SRF brake fluid, a proper alignment and Cup 2's.
I will buy the Z06 if you can find dates the track is available with no sound limit. You rent the track which we will split.
I get the entire day to put it down and if there's a mechanical failure or bad weather the bet is off and we will split the track rental. When you lose you will pay me 20k on the spot.
This is in a nearly stock C6Z.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...th-my-z06.html
Thunderbolt below
T1 Andrew Aquilante Chevrolet Corvette 1:25.541 94.69 6/01/13
T1 lap record at Laguna Seca
T1 1:35.239 84.6 Darrell Anderson, Petaluma CA 7/26/2015 2013 Ford BOSS R Mustang
GT2 Lap Record Laguna Seca
GT2 1:30.621 88.9 BOB FAIETA, TUJUNGA,CA 6/21/2009 07 PORSCHE
A C7Z is on Cup 2's quicker than a T1 car sorry to say. So go ahead. Make the bet. I literally can not wait.
This is me so you know who you're betting with now. I forgot it doesn't count since it was during a DE. lol!! Tons of Porsche's going right by us.
So as to stay on topic I predict a well driven ZR1 will go around my ACR-E like it's tied to a stump.
Steve W. Hoagland
Here's a guy out West who's actually quick. Where are guys like this when you go to your track days? I guess though since this was a a DE as well that 1:31 is slower than a 1:31 run during a race or qualifying? I was running 40's when I was just starting out in a 130 hp Skip Barber Dodge.
Last edited by Racingswh; 05-25-2018 at 10:57 PM.
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05-25-2018, 11:01 PM
#116
I came from a gt2 996 to my z06 and sometimes I regret it. With the upgrade I would opt for a 18 gt3 instead ida zr1 to be honest. You can’t go wrong with either though. Goodluck
05-26-2018, 12:17 AM
#117
Safety Car
If you're serious about betting I will happily make it. I need to raise it to make it worth my while and pay my expenses so I will do it for 20k.
I can do it in the fall of 2019 as 2018 is full already for me and wasn't expecting to make a trip like this to the West Coast. I want to add harnesses and a seat, SRF brake fluid, a proper alignment and Cup 2's.
I will buy the Z06 if you can find dates the track is available with no sound limit. You rent the track which we will split.
I get the entire day to put it down and if there's a mechanical failure or bad weather the bet is off and we will split the track rental. When you lose you will pay me 20k on the spot.
This is in a nearly stock C6Z.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...th-my-z06.html
Thunderbolt below
T1 Andrew Aquilante Chevrolet Corvette 1:25.541 94.69 6/01/13
T1 lap record at Laguna Seca
T1 1:35.239 84.6 Darrell Anderson, Petaluma CA 7/26/2015 2013 Ford BOSS R Mustang
GT2 Lap Record Laguna Seca
GT2 1:30.621 88.9 BOB FAIETA, TUJUNGA,CA 6/21/2009 07 PORSCHE
A C7Z is on Cup 2's quicker than a T1 car sorry to say. So go ahead. Make the bet. I literally can not wait.
This is me so you know who you're betting with now. I forgot it doesn't count since it was during a DE. lol!! Tons of Porsche's going right by us.
So as to stay on topic I predict a well driven ZR1 will go around my ACR-E like it's tied to a stump.
Steve W. Hoagland
Here's a guy out West who's actually quick. Where are guys like this when you go to your track days? I guess though since this was a a DE as well that 1:31 is slower than a 1:31 run during a race or qualifying? I was running 40's when I was just starting out in a 130 hp Skip Barber Dodge.
I can do it in the fall of 2019 as 2018 is full already for me and wasn't expecting to make a trip like this to the West Coast. I want to add harnesses and a seat, SRF brake fluid, a proper alignment and Cup 2's.
I will buy the Z06 if you can find dates the track is available with no sound limit. You rent the track which we will split.
I get the entire day to put it down and if there's a mechanical failure or bad weather the bet is off and we will split the track rental. When you lose you will pay me 20k on the spot.
This is in a nearly stock C6Z.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...th-my-z06.html
Thunderbolt below
T1 Andrew Aquilante Chevrolet Corvette 1:25.541 94.69 6/01/13
T1 lap record at Laguna Seca
T1 1:35.239 84.6 Darrell Anderson, Petaluma CA 7/26/2015 2013 Ford BOSS R Mustang
GT2 Lap Record Laguna Seca
GT2 1:30.621 88.9 BOB FAIETA, TUJUNGA,CA 6/21/2009 07 PORSCHE
A C7Z is on Cup 2's quicker than a T1 car sorry to say. So go ahead. Make the bet. I literally can not wait.
This is me so you know who you're betting with now. I forgot it doesn't count since it was during a DE. lol!! Tons of Porsche's going right by us.
So as to stay on topic I predict a well driven ZR1 will go around my ACR-E like it's tied to a stump.
Steve W. Hoagland
Here's a guy out West who's actually quick. Where are guys like this when you go to your track days? I guess though since this was a a DE as well that 1:31 is slower than a 1:31 run during a race or qualifying? I was running 40's when I was just starting out in a 130 hp Skip Barber Dodge.
First, HPDE is not an event where two guys rent the whole track. This has to be the most laughable proposition you have put on the table. Remember all those arguments about the type of driving one can do during HPDE? You wiped your *** with that one when you assumed a track all to yourself. An HPDE is a driving event where you share the road with dozens other drivers going at various speeds with varying degrees of talent. You get about 5 20 minute sessions. That's it. That 997 guy, did he split the entire track with one other driver?
Second, you are off your rocker if you thinking anyone is going to pay $20K worth of expenses. I don't need $20K to get ready for one HPDE. $20K gets weeks worth of track training with an instructor. You don't need that, you are Skip Barber trained already remember? Your claim was that being 3 to 4 seconds off pace is what is acceptable for any Corvette driver in HPDE. Most HPDE guys don't get training and neither will you. That 997 guy, was he paid $20K in expenses to train for his HPDE outing before he showed up in a video? $1000 will pay your HPDE costs for one day, which I think is fair. No one is getting paid to drive in HPDE but you will, so you come up ahead anyway, if you win of course.
Third, if you break down before you put the time down then you lose. If you overheat before you put the time down then you lose. I spent 3 years dealing with both on track in HPDE, that is the reality of driving a street Corvette on track. You don't get a free pass on that. If that 997 chap broke down while trying to hold a Corvette back and the Vette passed him, then it would be a victory for the Vette wouldn't it? It will be for you too, or your demise, either way it cuts.
The rest in general I will entertain. I can attend an HPDE on the day of your choosing anytime in 2018 where there is no sound limit. If it rains, then the bet won't count. You may get SRF and alignment. I presume these were all conditions that Randy Pobst had, so fine by me.
As for the rest, what happened? Did you look through all C7 Youtube videos and couldn't find one that looked decently close? Is that why you are relying on modified car times and non-Corvettes? Yeah, if the national champion drives a modified non-C7 car he will post a time 2 seconds slower than Pobst. That's neither here or there for me.
05-26-2018, 01:10 AM
#118
Melting Slicks
With bets, you either take them or you don't. Your response not only confirms the various points I've made but ranks among the highest most ridiculous counter bets I've ever seen.
First, HPDE is not an event where two guys rent the whole track. This has to be the most laughable proposition you have put on the table. Remember all those arguments about the type of driving one can do during HPDE? You wiped your *** with that one when you assumed a track all to yourself. An HPDE is a driving event where you share the road with dozens other drivers going at various speeds with varying degrees of talent. You get about 5 20 minute sessions. That's it. That 997 guy, did he split the entire track with one other driver?
Second, you are off your rocker if you thinking anyone is going to pay $20K worth of expenses. I don't need $20K to get ready for one HPDE. $20K gets weeks worth of track training with an instructor. You don't need that, you are Skip Barber trained already remember? Your claim was that being 3 to 4 seconds off pace is what is acceptable for any Corvette driver in HPDE. Most HPDE guys don't get training and neither will you. That 997 guy, was he paid $20K in expenses to train for his HPDE outing before he showed up in a video? $1000 will pay your HPDE costs for one day, which I think is fair. No one is getting paid to drive in HPDE but you will, so you come up ahead anyway, if you win of course.
Third, if you break down before you put the time down then you lose. If you overheat before you put the time down then you lose. I spent 3 years dealing with both on track in HPDE, that is the reality of driving a street Corvette on track. You don't get a free pass on that. If that 997 chap broke down while trying to hold a Corvette back and the Vette passed him, then it would be a victory for the Vette wouldn't it? It will be for you too, or your demise, either way it cuts.
The rest in general I will entertain. I can attend an HPDE on the day of your choosing anytime in 2018 where there is no sound limit. If it rains, then the bet won't count. You may get SRF and alignment. I presume these were all conditions that Randy Pobst had, so fine by me.
As for the rest, what happened? Did you look through all C7 Youtube videos and couldn't find one that looked decently close? Is that why you are relying on modified car times and non-Corvettes? Yeah, if the national champion drives a modified non-C7 car he will post a time 2 seconds slower than Pobst. That's neither here or there for me.
First, HPDE is not an event where two guys rent the whole track. This has to be the most laughable proposition you have put on the table. Remember all those arguments about the type of driving one can do during HPDE? You wiped your *** with that one when you assumed a track all to yourself. An HPDE is a driving event where you share the road with dozens other drivers going at various speeds with varying degrees of talent. You get about 5 20 minute sessions. That's it. That 997 guy, did he split the entire track with one other driver?
Second, you are off your rocker if you thinking anyone is going to pay $20K worth of expenses. I don't need $20K to get ready for one HPDE. $20K gets weeks worth of track training with an instructor. You don't need that, you are Skip Barber trained already remember? Your claim was that being 3 to 4 seconds off pace is what is acceptable for any Corvette driver in HPDE. Most HPDE guys don't get training and neither will you. That 997 guy, was he paid $20K in expenses to train for his HPDE outing before he showed up in a video? $1000 will pay your HPDE costs for one day, which I think is fair. No one is getting paid to drive in HPDE but you will, so you come up ahead anyway, if you win of course.
Third, if you break down before you put the time down then you lose. If you overheat before you put the time down then you lose. I spent 3 years dealing with both on track in HPDE, that is the reality of driving a street Corvette on track. You don't get a free pass on that. If that 997 chap broke down while trying to hold a Corvette back and the Vette passed him, then it would be a victory for the Vette wouldn't it? It will be for you too, or your demise, either way it cuts.
The rest in general I will entertain. I can attend an HPDE on the day of your choosing anytime in 2018 where there is no sound limit. If it rains, then the bet won't count. You may get SRF and alignment. I presume these were all conditions that Randy Pobst had, so fine by me.
As for the rest, what happened? Did you look through all C7 Youtube videos and couldn't find one that looked decently close? Is that why you are relying on modified car times and non-Corvettes? Yeah, if the national champion drives a modified non-C7 car he will post a time 2 seconds slower than Pobst. That's neither here or there for me.
I will let you know if I am ever out there for a DE. Until then enjoy that makeshift jalopy you drive now.
You should let your animosity for the C7Z go I think. It's time. You have hurt it's feelings long enough.
I expect the new ZR1 will surprise even the doubters with decent track reliability and extremely high levels of performance.
05-26-2018, 02:03 AM
#119
Fabulous event. Attended in 1965 and 2010. One really has to be into it to enjoy. Generally it’s both sunny and hot and rainy and cold. Sounds strange, but often the case. Take good walking shoes, rain slicker, and umbrella, to be prepared. The race car gathering in the square days before the race is terrific. Have fun and be safe.
Last edited by tobaccokid; 05-26-2018 at 02:04 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Racingswh (05-26-2018)
05-26-2018, 06:36 AM
#120
Melting Slicks
Fabulous event. Attended in 1965 and 2010. One really has to be into it to enjoy. Generally it’s both sunny and hot and rainy and cold. Sounds strange, but often the case. Take good walking shoes, rain slicker, and umbrella, to be prepared. The race car gathering in the square days before the race is terrific. Have fun and be safe.
65' must have been incredible?!
For me sports car racing from the 1970's and 80's is what I envision when I think of racing cars from my youth and I am excited to finally go see a race there.
I am looking forward to seeing all of the different marques current entries up close. As incredible as the latest Porsche's sound to me as well as I happen to love the way their new cars look I am still going to be pulling for the Corvette's to put in a decent showing and possibly a win.
I have heard that word "prepared" quite a few times now and I will heed your advice.
If anyone is running their C7ZR1 this holiday weekend no matter where you're doing it I am pretty sure many of us would love to see video!!
Everyone have a fun, safe weekend!!