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That is not the current gen GT3 RS. The current one does a sub 7 minute ring lap.....
Wrong. The Lightning Lap times were current gen verses current gen. The car you are speaking of is to be released THIS fall. It is NOT the CURRENT car as it doesn't go on sale for 5 more months. Not splitting hairs....the car that turned the 6:56 ring time is NOT available as I write this.
One guy just posted his ZR1 lap at Road America...in his case his brake pads apparently really took a beating so he seeking some replacements for next event. He also didn't even hit 3mpg...lol. Considering Road America is 4.0 miles....that's some serious guzzle...lol. 20minut session 9 or so laps...in Tadge speak...(gotta resurrect my old meme I made...lol)
I'm pretty sure GaryZR1 can foot the bill though...LOL. Gotta think about it, that motor home gets better mpg pullin all that sh*t around, versus ZR1 cracking off *** whippins around RA.
Last edited by KnightDriveTV; 05-26-2018 at 04:24 PM.
Can we stay on topic? I m very well aware how PCNA covers tracked cars (quite well) and that GM is no different.
question is about consummables/operating costs of each cars be it on track or off track.
i dont think zr1 is cheaper to operate at all. Anyone challenging that with some facts?
What you "Think" is all there is. ZR1's started getting into customer hands less than 2 months ago, so you asking for "Facts" is laughable. Why not ask the VIR time for the C8? Ask someone what their best lap time was with their 2019 GT3RS.....
Now, common sense tells one that a GS/Z06/ZR1 is going to consume consumables at a higher rate because the cars weigh more. A Z51 would probably be a good deal CHEAPER to track than a GT3/RS. I would bet LOTS of dollars that Corvette rotors/pads are cheaper to buy than Porsche's. Tires are tires, buy what you want. All these cars are FAST, I think tire consumption falls on driver skill more than the car. Also, Porsche does NOT offer a WRITTEN warranty on TRACKED GT cars now (this is and has been discussed on Rennlist a TON). Supposedly, some have had luck with local dealers covering issues that occurred on the track, but that is NOT the same as a WRITTEN policy, as GM has on the Z51/GS/Z06/ZR1.
Well, there's one thing in Porsche's favor. CCB's are an OPTION on both the GT3 and GT3RS ($9,210) so at least comparing them to a ZR1, you would be replacing cheaper iron rotors if you didn't pony up for the carbon ceramics. Of course, I'm pretty sure Porsche IRON rotors aren't exactly cheap either.
I'm not sure about "stripped"...appeared to be full interior.
It wasn't running Michelin Cup 2's, it was specifically Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R's. Apparently, they are pretty sticky!
Just as per the 911 GTs warranty myth plenty documented the strip thing is plenty documented as well. Just look up the Porsche web site terms of conditions and warranty for GT2, GT2RS, GT3, GT3RS for warranty and for stripping/oem delete google GT2RS "strip" "stripped" "OEM delete" and equivalent in German.
Like stated CUP 2R are not D.O.T approved that is why you see the reference on Nurburing "cheater" tires here and there...
Last edited by Telepierre; 05-26-2018 at 05:06 PM.
I'm kind of confused about what we're comparing here. On the Porsche side is it a 991 GT3? GT3 or GT3 RS? What lap times do you turn at VIR and with what changes? I have data on a GS that turned a mid 2:01 on Pirelli scrubs with the DSC Sport controller. I've done a 1:57.5 in a Z06 with similar mods. I've been on track numerous times with someone who I know and respect who has a 991 GT3, the Z06 is significantly faster if you are on the same type of tire. I fully expect the ZR1 to be in the 1:53s at VIR or better.
I find the complaining about changing the brakes to be just plain silly. On both cars the brakes work well from the factory but only if you change the fluid and with iron brakes you will need a different pads. Many of us switched out the CCBs for AP Racing because they consumable costs are far lower than the CCBs. I don't believe there is any impact in lap time between the two systems.
Now to the original point, I actually agree that the ZR1 will have very high consumable costs. A 3600 lb car going 170 MPH is going to drink fuel, wear brakes, and chew up tires more so than a 3200 lb car going 150 MPH. You can't really do anything about fuel and I'm going to estimate the car will burn 30 gallons/hour on track. Running 93 octane at today's track prices that works out to about $135/hour. Running at a fast pace tires will probably last 4-6 days and I typically run scrubs for $600-750 a set. For the AP kit I got about 6 days out of front pads, roughly 1.5-2x that for rear, and rotors lasted at least 12 days a set for front (still haven't had to replace rears). However, I have no idea how that compares to a 991 GT3.
I think when folks talk about maintenance costs it's either repair costs (if out of pocket) or some maintenance items that the Porsche may require with its more advanced drivetrain. I know that a lot of 911 Cup car owners pull the sequential trans because the maintenance intervals and costs to rebuilt are ridiculous (somewhere around $25K every 25 hours I think?). Do the modern 911 track cars need valves adjusted, timing chains replaced, or anything like that frequently with track use?
Anyway, my normal budget for track days is around $25K/year and that includes entrance fees, food, getting there and back. The price difference between the cars seems like it would at least get me a full season of track time in a faster car for the same money.
What you "Think" is all there is. ZR1's started getting into customer hands less than 2 months ago, so you asking for "Facts" is laughable. Why not ask the VIR time for the C8? Ask someone what their best lap time was with their 2019 GT3RS.....
Now, common sense tells one that a GS/Z06/ZR1 is going to consume consumables at a higher rate because the cars weigh more. A Z51 would probably be a good deal CHEAPER to track than a GT3/RS. I would bet LOTS of dollars that Corvette rotors/pads are cheaper to buy than Porsche's. Tires are tires, buy what you want. All these cars are FAST, I think tire consumption falls on driver skill more than the car. Also, Porsche does NOT offer a WRITTEN warranty on TRACKED GT cars now (this is and has been discussed on Rennlist a TON). Supposedly, some have had luck with local dealers covering issues that occurred on the track, but that is NOT the same as a WRITTEN policy, as GM has on the Z51/GS/Z06/ZR1.
To your point cost compare on perishables and components has been covered in previous research DIRECTLY from vendors websites and catalogues.
I invite anybody to look up this on this forum and/or search each respective manufacturer web site:
Quick excerpt below: Replacement brakes system Z06 (07) rotors/brake calipers front rear: $7800
Replacement brakes same set GT3 $21000
If it was solely a matter of consumables costs then I’d buy an Ariel Atom... save myself $50,000 to $75,000 up front... reduce my operating/consumables cost to about 30% what it is now and have pretty close to the same amount of fun. But it’s not about the consumables cost is it?
If it was solely a matter of consumables costs then I’d buy an Ariel Atom... save myself $50,000 to $75,000 up front... reduce my operating/consumables cost to about 30% what it is now and have pretty close to the same amount of fun. But it’s not about the consumables cost is it?
Better yet buy a Miata and go all year on a set of brakes and tires. Just keep your eyes open the orange streak in your rear view mirror.
Exactly. We're talking about STREET cars that CAN be tracked. They have to meet a million regulations. Ariel Atom...not so much!
In the end, if you want to be the 800 pound Gorilla at HPDE events, that takes BIG BOY MONEY in MSRP/Consumables/Maintenance/Fuel/etc. If you want to track on the cheap, then buy a Miata and trick it up a bit. Or a Lotus Elise/Exige (keeping in mind the old adage...Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious). And understand you are going to be a rolling chicane to fast guys, being about 30 seconds or more PER LAP slower on VIR Grand.
Actually he looks right at the limit... 45 ft coach and @ 26 ft trailer... 3ft tongue gets you 74.5 ft give or take. That’s what I had a couple years ago... basically a full length tractor trailer at @ 65,000 pounds or so.
Got @ 6mpg pulling everything... about another $1.00 per mile in maintenance costs on the coach.
3.5" Mandrel Bent Baffled Turndowns, attached to a second Center Exhaust portion (the OEM one is just 3 bolts, and you can swap out the tips).
Originally Posted by jimmyb
And....
Both Porsche and GM recommend brake fluid changes before track duty...so I don't understand what your point is. ANYONE with ANY level of sense would do a comprehensive track prep, as instructed by the manufacturer, before doing a SERIOUS HPDE. I would also wager that EVERY one of these instructions INCLUDES brake fluid change.
In the Car and Driver Lighning Lap, the GT3 RS was 1/10th of a second faster (2:47.0 verses 2:47.1) than a GS. I would think it is safe to assume that a GT3 would be SLOWER than a GS.
No, Porsche does not tell you to change your brake fluid until 1 year old. The OEM fluid is suitable for tracking.
As for the lap times, You are quoting the 'older' RS, the new GT3 is more than 10 Seconds faster than the out going RS around the Ring, and has beaten it on Willow as well as the Z06 on Willow. The New RS beats the new GT3 by another 10+ seconds on the ring.
Originally Posted by Dave concrete
Is 15.5" vs 16.1" rotor size really considered significant?
And wasn't the pads ZR1 specific?
Yes, more than a 1/2" front Rotor size, significantly larger Calipers and then you take into consideration, all while probably a 1,000 lbs lighter on the nose. Is a significant.
Originally Posted by traind
That is not the current gen GT3 RS. The current one does a sub 7 minute ring lap.....
Thank you, exactly!
Again, was only speaking in terms of consumable... I like the Corvettes too... but you will do more maintenance in the Bowtie. Not $40K more mind you!
Best Regards,
Dave
Last edited by Dave Schotz; 05-26-2018 at 06:09 PM.
Not really. The GT3RS ring car was stripped and equipped with Michelin cup tires that are not roadable (not D.O.T compliant) on US streets.
See Ring, manufacturer and D.O.T web site.
TelePierre, while the tires are not available everywhere yet, they are indeed a D.O.T. tire, and here's the quote from the Porsche/Michelin update: "At the Nürburgring the 911 GT3 RS was equipped with the latest generation of Michelin Pilot Sport tyres. Optimised especially for track day use, the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R is fully compliant with relevant EU and US law. The tyre (265/35 ZR 20 front and 325/30 ZR 21 rear) can soon be ordered at every Porsche Centre and selected dealers or tyre fitters. Its approved fitments include 911 GT3 RS and 911 GT2 RS."
Originally Posted by K.I.T.T.
I'm not sure about "stripped"...appeared to be full interior.
It wasn't running Michelin Cup 2's, it was specifically Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R's. Apparently, they are pretty sticky!
Exactly, unfortunately, Telepierre continues to 'whine' about the GT cars having AC & Radio delete as an Option... and thus deems them 'stripped'. They are still factory cars... but trust me, there is no making sense with him.
Originally Posted by Telepierre
Just as per the 911 GTs warranty myth plenty documented the strip thing is plenty documented as well. Just look up the Porsche web site terms of conditions and warranty for GT2, GT2RS, GT3, GT3RS for warranty and for stripping/oem delete google GT2RS "strip" "stripped" "OEM delete" and equivalent in German.
Like stated CUP 2R are not D.O.T approved that is why you see the reference on Nurburing "cheater" tires here and there...
Again, the quote above.. they ARE in fact D.O.T. approved, both in EU & US.
Originally Posted by Telepierre
To your point cost compare on perishables and components has been covered in previous research DIRECTLY from vendors websites and catalogues.
I invite anybody to look up this on this forum and/or search each respective manufacturer web site:
Quick excerpt below: Replacement brakes system Z06 (07) rotors/brake calipers front rear: $7800
Replacement brakes same set GT3 $21000
And no I don't have to own any of these cars to know what their components cost...
More Kool-Aid, the Porsche manual explicitly mentions driving your car in HPDE events. What would not be covered would be 'Racing' your car.
Originally Posted by Poor-sha
Now to the original point, I actually agree that the ZR1 will have very high consumable costs. A 3600 lb car going 170 MPH is going to drink fuel, wear brakes, and chew up tires more so than a 3200 lb car going 150 MPH. You can't really do anything about fuel and I'm going to estimate the car will burn 30 gallons/hour on track. Running 93 octane at today's track prices that works out to about $135/hour. Running at a fast pace tires will probably last 4-6 days and I typically run scrubs for $600-750 a set. For the AP kit I got about 6 days out of front pads, roughly 1.5-2x that for rear, and rotors lasted at least 12 days a set for front (still haven't had to replace rears). However, I have no idea how that compares to a 991 GT3.
I think when folks talk about maintenance costs it's either repair costs (if out of pocket) or some maintenance items that the Porsche may require with its more advanced drivetrain. I know that a lot of 911 Cup car owners pull the sequential trans because the maintenance intervals and costs to rebuilt are ridiculous (somewhere around $25K every 25 hours I think?). Do the modern 911 track cars need valves adjusted, timing chains replaced, or anything like that frequently with track use?
Anyway, my normal budget for track days is around $25K/year and that includes entrance fees, food, getting there and back. The price difference between the cars seems like it would at least get me a full season of track time in a faster car for the same money.
Thank you, most reasonable response yet. Exactly... a 3600 lb (and realistically 3,800+lb car with a driver... is going to use up more tires and brakes than a 3,400 lb car with driver. Especially when the 3,400lb car has bigger brakes combined with less weight. But also the 3,400 lb car will be stopping 'less speed' in most cases, due to less HP.
The ZR1 is a bitchen car, but it is definitely going to 'use stuff up'!
It will be interesting to see how long the zr1 will run at VIR before the fuel is gone. I'm guessing 30 minutes max and wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being less. It takes a lot of fuel to move 3800 lbs. that fast!
Unhandled Exception.
I have been watching your posts. You seem to want to drive controversy.
You open topics and comment on others posts with NO DATA.
You are just full of opinions yourself, but ask others for their data, then comment on their posts if they do not support it with data
I am asking for all Cf members you be more careful with your posts and add value to the CF, not just stir the pot.
We have much to many with just OPINIONS and no facts.
So unless you are a track guy and seriously do it often and are debating the Porsche vs ZR1, just leave things to us who are on the track to figure it out.
Wrong. The Lightning Lap times were current gen verses current gen. The car you are speaking of is to be released THIS fall. It is NOT the CURRENT car as it doesn't go on sale for 5 more months. Not splitting hairs....the car that turned the 6:56 ring time is NOT available as I write this.
give me a break.... the zr1 just released in its home market and so did the GT3RS. Deliveries will be starting across Europe next month. It may not reach the US for a few months but the 991.2 is the current model if you want to compare one to the brand new ZR1
Actually he looks right at the limit... 45 ft coach and @ 26 ft trailer... 3ft tongue gets you 74.5 ft give or take. That’s what I had a couple years ago... basically a full length tractor trailer at @ 65,000 pounds or so.
Got @ 6mpg pulling everything... about another $1.00 per mile in maintenance costs on the coach.
Actually 65' is maximum length for a tractor/trailer and in most states its also the same law for personal tow rigs and trailers as well as RV's. Come down to the South and his rig would be stopped and ticketed often and in Texas they will even make him pull off the road and stop driving until he could get his trailer transported by other means.
Have you guys actually tracked any of your corvettes against a GT3? You seem to be basing your evaluations off of magazine times alone. The P-cars are incredibly quick. A PDK GT3 can easily give a good driver in a Z06 a run for their money. Their comparative Sebring laptimes are nearly identical. Their acceleration on a straight is also nearly identical and they often can put the power down faster coming into the straight. Good luck keeping up with a GT3 in your GS...the P-cars appear to be much easier to get the full potential out of them.
Yes I have. Utah Motorsports Campus. Several open track and HPDE3 days now for second season. Maybe the fast Porsches/drivers don't come out, but Raquel (2017 Z06/7) doesn't have a problem with any of them. A8, paddle shifted when tach hits 5k, no problem keeping up in the straights. Corners are maybe a more of driver function, but I am no pro, and I drive the corners harder when I am clear than when I am following the Porsches. Except one. Driving HPDE 4/TT group, a stripped/race prepped/big azz wing/slicks/TT group Porsche passed me. Nothing on Raquel, I need to be a better driver and it wouldn't have happened.
05-26-2018, 04:14 PM
