ZR1 Pace Car at Detroit just crashed
06-04-2018, 03:16 PM
#221
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Nov 2011
Location: Valdosta GA
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16-'17-‘18-'19-'20-'21-'22
The concept of a celebrity driver for the pace car simply makes no sense. They should abandon that.
In Formula 1 they always use the same driver, Berndt Maylander, ....
And when I met him, he told me they drive on Pirelli road tires and not on the PSC2's the GT-R comes equipped with as they have to be ready at any moment to get out on track with cold tires whether rain or shine, and there is never any time to swap tires.
That is the pro way.
In Formula 1 they always use the same driver, Berndt Maylander, ....
And when I met him, he told me they drive on Pirelli road tires and not on the PSC2's the GT-R comes equipped with as they have to be ready at any moment to get out on track with cold tires whether rain or shine, and there is never any time to swap tires.
That is the pro way.
06-04-2018, 03:23 PM
#222
The point was he drives on all season tires, not summer max performance tires that need a LOT of heat to begin to stick. 70 degrees coming out of the pits is essentially a cold tire.
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raff (06-04-2018)
06-04-2018, 03:28 PM
#223
Burning Brakes
06-04-2018, 03:31 PM
#225
thanks. My ZTK will do much more street time than track time and living were it’s often cold and wet, those Cup 2 tires are being replaced with Pilots SS’s before I take delivery of the car. I’m not sure I will drive the car hard enough to get the Cups hot enough to be an advantage anyway. Certainly not near the cars limits. In the wet cold the Pilot SS’s will definitely be safer. ..before anyone asks: I like the way the big wing looks.
06-04-2018, 03:32 PM
#226
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Mar 2006
Location: Land of the free, home of the brave...
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Dear GM and Mary Barra....
I'm volunteering to drive next year's Detroit Indy Grand Prix "parade laps". As the owner of several Corvettes, I'm experienced with their handling and I promise I won't do anything to damage the then revealed Mid-Engine, C8 while I'm circling the track.
Feel free to invite Mark as the co-driver.
Really, I promise!
Feel free to invite Mark as the co-driver.
Really, I promise!
06-04-2018, 03:39 PM
#227
I am really saddened by some of responses to this thread, from long time members of this forum and others. The horrifying thing for me was less about the accident but more from the responses I have read. The jokes about it from all the Monday morning quarterbacks, the “Expert” opinions on what he should have done., and opinions about all mistakes he made. Other posts above that show glee in this unfortunate accident and feel free to spew their hate upon the car itself or belittle the driver who probably has more expertise, experience and knowledge that 99% of the people on here. The jokes about the car being ugly, boy racer, not being capable etc. All this hate by people that supposedly love Corvettes and are long time members of an enthusiast forum dedicated to them.. Really?
Nothing to argue about here as far as I’m concerned. It’s just sad and downright embarrassing to me and I just hope threads like this can find a more positive direction. The statement the he has issued himself a few hours ago says all about how bad he feels, and how sorry he is for letting everyone down. Does it really make one feel better to keep pouring salt in to the wound?
Nothing to argue about here as far as I’m concerned. It’s just sad and downright embarrassing to me and I just hope threads like this can find a more positive direction. The statement the he has issued himself a few hours ago says all about how bad he feels, and how sorry he is for letting everyone down. Does it really make one feel better to keep pouring salt in to the wound?
These discussions can serve an important educational function if discussed respectfully. There are people here who do have the experience to back up the statements they've made, and I'd bet if you could sit down and have a beer w/ Mr. Reuss, he'd have the class to confirm exactly what several have said here regarding what he did that went wrong.
However, the key is to do it in a respectful way. If it was a judgement error, many of these same people, including myself, have admitted to similar judgement errors from which we learned valuable lessons. Anyone who's ever pushed a car to the limits has made them.
It is important to try to pass on those lessons on to those thoughtful and smart enough to reflect upon them and learn.
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rikhek (06-04-2018)
06-04-2018, 03:49 PM
#228
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2002
Location: North shore,Ma./Naples Florida
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I agree with most of what you say about the snide remarks, insults, and ridicule, but I disagree that the probable causes of the accident and the mistakes probably made in this incident should not be discussed.
These discussions can serve an important educational function if discussed respectfully. There are people here who do have the experience to back up the statements they've made, and I'd bet if you could sit down and have a beer w/ Mr. Reuss, he'd have the class to confirm exactly what several have said here regarding what he did that went wrong.
However, the key is to do it in a respectful way. If it was a judgement error, many of these same people, including myself, have admitted to similar judgement errors from which we learned valuable lessons. Anyone who's ever pushed a car to the limits has made them.
It is important to try to pass on those lessons on to those thoughtful and smart enough to reflect upon them and learn.
These discussions can serve an important educational function if discussed respectfully. There are people here who do have the experience to back up the statements they've made, and I'd bet if you could sit down and have a beer w/ Mr. Reuss, he'd have the class to confirm exactly what several have said here regarding what he did that went wrong.
However, the key is to do it in a respectful way. If it was a judgement error, many of these same people, including myself, have admitted to similar judgement errors from which we learned valuable lessons. Anyone who's ever pushed a car to the limits has made them.
It is important to try to pass on those lessons on to those thoughtful and smart enough to reflect upon them and learn.
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Foosh (06-04-2018)
06-04-2018, 03:54 PM
#229
Lessons to Learn
1. Lack of safety gear-no helmets, no Hans, and probably no harness seat belts-air bags did deploy as they should in this front end impact.
2. Improper warm up laps, no heat in tires
3. Improper setup of transmission and/or track mode settings of car.
4. Poor line-appeared to be inside of the tire marks on the track-poor apex.
5. May have excelerated at wrong time or improperly shifted car at corner causing spin.
6. Head wasn't up and looking forward into turn to see two seater Indy car.
All these things are taught at Spring Mountain for ZR1 owners and are the basics of driving a high performance car on a race track. You have to respect these cars---they are very high horsepower and very high torque beasts. Somebody could have been seriously hurt but the good news no one was hurt-driver, passenger, race car driver/pit crew or racing fan.
In my opinion, the Indy series needs to review the guidelines for pace cars and the qualifications of the drivers who pace the beginning of the race and on race cautions. That is a street track and even the Indy drivers respect the roughness and the tightness of that track. The C6 ZR1 and the C7 ZR1 super cars-get professional training and heed the instructions if you are going to own one of these cars.
1. Lack of safety gear-no helmets, no Hans, and probably no harness seat belts-air bags did deploy as they should in this front end impact.
2. Improper warm up laps, no heat in tires
3. Improper setup of transmission and/or track mode settings of car.
4. Poor line-appeared to be inside of the tire marks on the track-poor apex.
5. May have excelerated at wrong time or improperly shifted car at corner causing spin.
6. Head wasn't up and looking forward into turn to see two seater Indy car.
All these things are taught at Spring Mountain for ZR1 owners and are the basics of driving a high performance car on a race track. You have to respect these cars---they are very high horsepower and very high torque beasts. Somebody could have been seriously hurt but the good news no one was hurt-driver, passenger, race car driver/pit crew or racing fan.
In my opinion, the Indy series needs to review the guidelines for pace cars and the qualifications of the drivers who pace the beginning of the race and on race cautions. That is a street track and even the Indy drivers respect the roughness and the tightness of that track. The C6 ZR1 and the C7 ZR1 super cars-get professional training and heed the instructions if you are going to own one of these cars.
06-04-2018, 03:57 PM
#230
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Lessons to Learn
1. Lack of safety gear-no helmets, no Hans, and probably no harness seat belts-air bags did deploy as they should in this front end impact.
2. Improper warm up laps, no heat in tires
3. Improper setup of transmission and/or track mode settings of car.
4. Poor line-appeared to be inside of the tire marks on the track-poor apex.
5. May have excelerated at wrong time or improperly shifted car at corner causing spin.
6. Head wasn't up and looking forward into turn to see two seater Indy car.
All these things are taught at Spring Mountain for ZR1 owners and are the basics of driving a high performance car on a race track. You have to respect these cars---they are very high horsepower and very high torque beasts. Somebody could have been seriously hurt but the good news no one was hurt-driver, passenger, race car driver/pit crew or racing fan.
In my opinion, the Indy series needs to review the guidelines for pace cars and the qualifications of the drivers who pace the beginning of the race and on race cautions. That is a street track and even the Indy drivers respect the roughness and the tightness of that track. The C6 ZR1 and the C7 ZR1 super cars-get professional training and heed the instructions if you are going to own one of these cars.
1. Lack of safety gear-no helmets, no Hans, and probably no harness seat belts-air bags did deploy as they should in this front end impact.
2. Improper warm up laps, no heat in tires
3. Improper setup of transmission and/or track mode settings of car.
4. Poor line-appeared to be inside of the tire marks on the track-poor apex.
5. May have excelerated at wrong time or improperly shifted car at corner causing spin.
6. Head wasn't up and looking forward into turn to see two seater Indy car.
All these things are taught at Spring Mountain for ZR1 owners and are the basics of driving a high performance car on a race track. You have to respect these cars---they are very high horsepower and very high torque beasts. Somebody could have been seriously hurt but the good news no one was hurt-driver, passenger, race car driver/pit crew or racing fan.
In my opinion, the Indy series needs to review the guidelines for pace cars and the qualifications of the drivers who pace the beginning of the race and on race cautions. That is a street track and even the Indy drivers respect the roughness and the tightness of that track. The C6 ZR1 and the C7 ZR1 super cars-get professional training and heed the instructions if you are going to own one of these cars.
06-04-2018, 04:09 PM
#231
Qualifications of Reuss
Yes, I did and I know who he is. That is all fine but professional race car drivers or gentleman drivers make mistakes too. This incident and others can lead to accidents. This year at the Indy 500 several cars had the rear end come around with the cars winding up into the wall and day over. Those are professional race car drivers.
Rick Malone at Spring Mountain teaches all of the factors listed at my ZR1 training. I'm sure this will shown at Spring Mountain as an example of how quickly a car can become unstable when the back end gets light, the tires are cold, and you have a poor apex with acceleration. I am especially sensitive to Mr. Reuss experience as the same thing happened to me at Spring Mountain--I didn't hit a wall but I spun the Corvette at a corner and also spun a Radical while training to get a racing lisence. It is easy do whether you are a novice or professional.
The goal here is to educate readers on the forum. I'm sure Mr Reuss wishes it never happened but he will learn from it.
Rick Malone at Spring Mountain teaches all of the factors listed at my ZR1 training. I'm sure this will shown at Spring Mountain as an example of how quickly a car can become unstable when the back end gets light, the tires are cold, and you have a poor apex with acceleration. I am especially sensitive to Mr. Reuss experience as the same thing happened to me at Spring Mountain--I didn't hit a wall but I spun the Corvette at a corner and also spun a Radical while training to get a racing lisence. It is easy do whether you are a novice or professional.
The goal here is to educate readers on the forum. I'm sure Mr Reuss wishes it never happened but he will learn from it.
Last edited by Torchzr1; 06-04-2018 at 04:10 PM.
06-04-2018, 04:10 PM
#232
The type of qualifications/skills we're discussing in this case are fleeting. Rust sets in very quickly even from one year to the next. Most EVPs in big companies don't have much time to spend at a track honing those skills. It's the amount of seat time he's had very recently that would be more telling, not what he did at Nurburgring 10 years ago.
It's also important to have considerable recent seat time in each type of car you're trying push hard. I have to wonder how much track time he had in a ZR1.
It's also important to have considerable recent seat time in each type of car you're trying push hard. I have to wonder how much track time he had in a ZR1.
Last edited by Foosh; 06-04-2018 at 04:22 PM.
06-04-2018, 04:19 PM
#233
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Yes, I did and I know who he is. That is all fine but professional race car drivers or gentleman drivers make mistakes too. This incident and others can lead to accidents. This year at the Indy 500 several cars had the rear end come around with the cars winding up into the wall and day over. Those are professional race car drivers.
Rick Malone at Spring Mountain teaches all of the factors listed at my ZR1 training. I'm sure this will shown at Spring Mountain as an example of how quickly a car can become unstable when the back end gets light, the tires are cold, and you have a poor apex with acceleration. I am especially sensitive to Mr. Reuss experience as the same thing happened to me at Spring Mountain--I didn't hit a wall but I spun the Corvette at a corner and also spun a Radical while training to get a racing lisence. It is easy do whether you are a novice or professional.
The goal here is to educate readers on the forum. I'm sure Mr Reuss wishes it never happened but he will learn from it.
Rick Malone at Spring Mountain teaches all of the factors listed at my ZR1 training. I'm sure this will shown at Spring Mountain as an example of how quickly a car can become unstable when the back end gets light, the tires are cold, and you have a poor apex with acceleration. I am especially sensitive to Mr. Reuss experience as the same thing happened to me at Spring Mountain--I didn't hit a wall but I spun the Corvette at a corner and also spun a Radical while training to get a racing lisence. It is easy do whether you are a novice or professional.
The goal here is to educate readers on the forum. I'm sure Mr Reuss wishes it never happened but he will learn from it.
I'm an expert computer programmer, I've compiled thousands of programs. Do they all compile cleanly on the first compile? Nope, I've missed a : or a ; hundreds of times. Do I know they're needed in specific places in the code? yup. Did I screw up? yup. Do I need further training? nope
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Yokesc5 (06-04-2018)
06-04-2018, 05:17 PM
#235
Le Mans Master
The type of qualifications/skills we're discussing in this case are fleeting. Rust sets in very quickly even from one year to the next. Most EVPs in big companies don't have much time to spend at a track honing those skills. It's the amount of seat time he's had very recently that would be more telling, not what he did at Nurburgring 10 years ago.
It's also important to have considerable recent seat time in each type of car you're trying push hard. I have to wonder how much track time he had in a ZR1.
It's also important to have considerable recent seat time in each type of car you're trying push hard. I have to wonder how much track time he had in a ZR1.
Last edited by Mr. Gizmo; 06-04-2018 at 05:19 PM.
06-04-2018, 05:37 PM
#236
Team Owner
thanks. My ZTK will do much more street time than track time and living were it’s often cold and wet, those Cup 2 tires are being replaced with Pilots SS’s before I take delivery of the car. I’m not sure I will drive the car hard enough to get the Cups hot enough to be an advantage anyway. Certainly not near the cars limits. In the wet cold the Pilot SS’s will definitely be safer. ..before anyone asks: I like the way the big wing looks.
They waited out the rain before continuing on the trip, but when he got back home, a set of SS's were installed.
06-04-2018, 05:52 PM
#237
Melting Slicks
I think this incident serves as a good warning for all C7 owners. Mark Reuss is infinitely familiar with the C7 and has track/performance driving experience. For all of us non-pro drivers of C7s, this is testament that **** can happen quickly in these cars despite what previous experience we have under our belts. You can blame conditions, tires, bumps, lines...in the end it's ultimately the driver's fault unless there's overt mechanical failure, another car/driver, or act of God involved in the incident.
Likely anyone who has driven a C7 to the limit has found a puckering moment. I have. Fortunately my C7Zs rear end has never overtaken the front end though.
Here was a fun one of mine:
Likely anyone who has driven a C7 to the limit has found a puckering moment. I have. Fortunately my C7Zs rear end has never overtaken the front end though.
Here was a fun one of mine:
Last edited by spearfish25; 06-04-2018 at 06:31 PM.
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tail_lights (06-05-2018)
06-04-2018, 06:11 PM
#239
In my opinion, the Indy series needs to review the guidelines for pace cars and the qualifications of the drivers who pace the beginning of the race and on race cautions. That is a street track and even the Indy drivers respect the roughness and the tightness of that track. The C6 ZR1 and the C7 ZR1 super cars-get professional training and heed the instructions if you are going to own one of these cars.
Reading Mark's statement looks like this is not his 1st rodeo.
BUT it was absolutely appalling to see a pace car driver come out in basically a dress shirt and slacks with NO apparent head or neck or fire suit protection on....when he is driving on a race track.
Seems like a huge safety issue and not good management decision by the track or by GM.
Are pace cars usually allowed to be driven by semi-celebs (or company higher ups for PR purposes I suppose?) or should pace car drivers be fully pros with full suits and helmets? (not sure, just asking since I'm not an expert in pace car drivers for these types of races....)
It seems like Mark is not just a office-jockey/corporate executive...but has lot of track driving experience...but still his full time job is an executive for a company...and I wonder if policies may have to change to improve safety for pace car driver qualifications??
Last edited by nist7; 06-04-2018 at 06:13 PM.
06-04-2018, 06:23 PM
#240
Also the wheels are still rotating much faster than the car is moving once he's sideways. Wheels won't rotate much when you are sliding sideways. This indicates he was still in the throttle. You usually only go off forward if you are in the throttle too long after losing the rear. I know from experience unfortunately. If it was lift throttle oversteer its more likely he backs in on the other side of the track after whipping back around.
I notice no brake lights until after he hits the wall. If he lifted and didn't bother to brake, he has no business on track.
I notice no brake lights until after he hits the wall. If he lifted and didn't bother to brake, he has no business on track.
I have to admire his mea culpa in the statement released...not so much GM's explanation of the incident.