johnglenntwo

SS Tires, big aero, and Homologation!

SBC_and_a_stick

Both he C6 Z and basically all the Porsche GT3s refute these arguments. Not only has Chevy made such a car but Porsche makes a light enthusiast friendly car today with whatever safety items you need and probably some extra.

Truth is GM hasn't tried to advance the small block in N/A form beyond what's in the base car. I call that a poor effort. GM hasn't tried to make a car that's easy to drive without electronic aids, which has added considerable weight in terms of eLSD and dampers.

This all goes down to Tadge, ie. leadership decisions. For the C7 GM should have pushed for a more refined C6 Z. Instead they went with a kitchen sink approach. If you want 20 cars in one, a soft one, a stiff one, a loud one, a quiet one, a hard top, an open top, snow modes, and dummy proof modes you will pay the price in terms of weight. The result is a luxury barge that can only do a quick lap before toasting its tires, gulping several gallons, and causing $$$ in wear on the car.

jvp

And both cars sell (or sold) in pathetic numbers as opposed to today's Z06. The C6 Z was not a sales smash by any stretch. Sure the first couple of years it sold well, but once the "Gotta have its!" got their hands on it, the demand waned a lot. Why? Because it was a single-focus car that NO ONE WANTED! That's the point you and a vocal few others just don't seem to understand. You're so focused on your wants that you forget the rest of the Corvette line-up. IT has to sell and be profitable, or GM pulls the plug.

Remember the "Ask Tadge" question where he explained that GM investing in a new car is like the team taking a loan out from the mothership. They have to show with a great deal of accuracy when and how they're going to pay that loan (investment) back. Like it or not, they're smarter than you are. They're smarter than most of the folks participating on the Forums. They know their customer base when it comes to that sort of thing and they know what will sell. Not in the onesy-twosy numbers, but the thousands of numbers.

That is simply one of the funniest things I've ever read on this forum. If you honestly think there are powertrain engineers anywhere in the world that can top GM's, show them to me. Were you here right now, I'd laugh loudly and rudely right in your face. You haven't clue one what you're talking about (which is no surprise, given the source). The small block is a vastly advanced piece of hardware from what it was even 10 years ago. We wouldn't have it at all if it weren't for the engineers at GM continuing to push it to new power numbers and containing the emissions and FE the way they do.

That's. Not. What. The. Customers. Want!

It is, apparently, what you want. So you and the other 5 or 10 folks that bitch repeatedly about it should pack up your stuff and go buy that car. Just be sure to point me by on the race track, please.

Sure. Blame Tadge for your lack of understanding in how the real car business works. That's a pretty rich statement. As it turns out: he's already answered why he didn't build a "more refined" C6 Z.

It. Wouldn't. Sell.

johnglenntwo

The problem simply Still is obvious!

The C7R's motor is what (homologate that)!?

mfain

You make a few good points, especially when it comes to the reasons GM produces cars - sales and profit. Good for GM, but not necessarily good for ALL of its Corvette customers. On the other hand, this is a ZR-1 thread and, unlike the Corvette-purchasing general public, there are quite a few folks like myself interested in the ZR-1 purely for performance potential. I realize the market is small, but I bought into the "small" market before. I traded a Viper for a 2006 Z06 strictly for its superior performance, and as soon as I could I ordered a 2011 Z06/Z07/CFZ-optioned ILZ lightweight rocket, that I still own. I wouldn't give it up for anything, even if it is a single-focus car that NO ONE WANTED. When the C7 Z06 showed heating issues, I quickly cancelled my order and ordered a low production, low-profit-for-Dodge ACR for the track. Now I am again on the fence regarding buying a ZR-1 - waiting for it to conclusively demonstrate what I hope will be great track car potential. In the meantime I doubt I will be in a position in my low-tech, non-ediff, TC-off ACR to give you that point-by you are looking for.

Cheers

Pappy

heavychevy

Smack talk, I like it. The unfortunate thing is that there are still 10 times more people who buy any level of Corvette to garage queen it. Remember when the C6ZR1 outsold the C6Z. That set the precedent for not going more extreme with weight loss but just throwing power at it and any manufacturer is going to side with the economic majority which, in the case of the Corvette is plush first, performance second, light weight isn't an issue cruising 10 below speed limit on the highway to cars n coffee.

That being said said, even driven well below the limit, you're way faster pretty much everything at DE's. If you aren't dominating DE's, it's the driver, not the car. Consumables will be up, but if you spent 120k on a car to track, changing tires or pads a bit sooner shouldn't be a deal breaker.

Not even Porsche is catering to track guys as much as they used to. The gimmick centerlocks hubs have been a disaster. The huge wheels for bling. RWS making it a pain to get 18's on the car (I'm not even sure if it has been figured out at this point) matter of fact Porsche had a disclaimer against using slicks on the 991. How is ghat track focused? The 996 was far more track focused so much so that the RS wasn't even legal in the states. This is happening across all brands. True track rats are few and far between, especially as the price increases.

johnglenntwo

Calibrating a RE! Your lucky it's staying on the road as is!

jbsblownc5

WOW, never thought this would have 15k in views when I started this thread....

SBC_and_a_stick

As a preliminary matter, the only way I can understand your drive is that of an investor. If I owned GM stock I'd also only be interested in profits and "good vibes." As an enthusiast though, I mean really, point you by? I thought you weren't much of a road course guy, and now that's how you prove yourself? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Ah but you are dead wrong. As we all know, there is a C7 today because the C6 has been profitable for the general! Tadge didn't get the budget approved because the C7 was a sexy proposition, he got the stamp based on C6's dominance. It was all historical data.

There are many ways to pay a loan back. You don't know what could have been given different leadership, you just know what is and take it as given that this is as good as it gets. Even if C7 has high revenues, what is the cost structure? How many buyers will come back for a C8? I remember when the C6 Z reviews were coming from Europe and they were wildly positive. It sure seemed like the Corvette was to become a global staple. And why wouldn't it, when it was as light as the competition, as fast, as raw, as special? All it needed was a revised interior and a small evolution to the next gen.

The best engineers in the world are useless when the business man neglects their ideas. You can take all the tech GM threw in the LT since the LS and give me one that I saw in patents nearly two decades ago by: a dual cam OHV design. What happened to the forged titanium rods from the C6Z/ZR1? Did GM forget how to do it or did they cut costs and forced everyone to switch their oil after every track day instead?

I don't mind at all the content in the ZR1. It is a ZR1 through and through. What I mind is the business decision to pursue only a two car lineup, where they killed the high performance NA version. That was all business, and there were bins of technology at GM to make it happen, and that's only based on the patents I've seen and the tech they could have bought like everyone else (Mecadyne's cam in cam from the Viper comes to mind).

Yes, it is what I want. Am I supposed to defend myself here for vocalizing what I prefer from a manufacturer? GM always knows what the customers want, until they don't and they need to be bailed out. No thanks, I will not have words put into my mouth.

Corvette is lucky to have a loyal customer base. It's the customer's desire to own a Corvette, regardless of how bad team Corvette misses the goal post, that makes Corvette profitable. Corvette team needs to step up and satisfy their clientele. There should be 0 instances where team Camaro has a product that's easier to drive and more robust.

That's what Tadge said yes. You never ask yourself what Al would have done?

There are many ways to kill a car. And that is to lose all that is great in it. Do I care whether C8 will launch only to become a budget Bentley? I want the C6 Z resurrected and I'm sure many more here do too.

People flock to buy Mecans, because the same company makes 911s. It's the 911's that sell Mecans as much as the Mecans selling 911. That's how Porsche saved the enthusiast car while making profits. Why can't GM do the same? GM needs to think bigger. When Corvette has something great, it needs to do more of it, and then carry that strain in the rest of its cars.

herohaki

why people have to keep arguing about the company's internal stuff, just keep it about the cars... C6 Zs are great cars, but they do have problems, so does any other car, just appreciate them. The C7s did improve in many ways, in the time of C6 people complained, now its C7 people still complain, people are always complaining. The company can do that much, it is impossible to satisfy everybody, GM obviously have their priorities and a different focus in C7s and the future C8s, the market is shifting, people are changing, we have to just accept that and look forward. GM did a outstanding job with the small blocks and now the LT5. The C7 model came improving in what people wanted and balancing their focus so why still give them a hard time... before C7 we bitched about quality, reliability, now we have more of those we bitch about weight and performance when both of these are not too compromised when you think about it, you can't expect them to do everything for you and make it have top luxury, quality, lightest, best performing, and cheap etc... all in one car while keeping the cost almost half of other manufacturer's prices... C6 to me is a great generation, but so is C7, it is a very successful generation with great cars that will leave an unforgettable final mark on front engine vettes to send them off for the C8 when they test a whole new platform and layout, the company and the engineers are not stupid, they know how to make great cars and they've done this many times, let's just have faith in them...

Also 911's heritage is why many people stay to porsche, the macan has nothing to do with it, most people who buy macans are either after brand "oh its a porsche" or "i want a luxury suv" and not because they know about porsche's history and I want a suv from a 911 company. The 911 came a long way and tried to stay the same, but even that there are changes here and there with different focus as the market and consumers change. People should stop comparing the ZR with GT3RS, their approach in engineering the car is too different to make them an opponent to each other.

911Hunter

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...911-carrera-s/
I think that this H2H comparation between the Corvette Grand Sport VS the Porsche 911 Carrera S is proof that the C7 Stingray has much better handling than the Porsche 911, at the skidpad, slaloom, braking MT 8 track and also better lap times, even they enjoyed more the GS at the road test compared to the 911. Porsche had to introduce the biturbo engine in all their new 911 models to be able to keep up with the competition.
The GT2RS is Porsche's best sport car, yes it would be hard to be beat at the track, it has Nurburgring's lap time record for a street car.
But GM already had shown that they can beat many other exotic european cars that cost $$$$ more as we can see with the C7 Corvettes, Camaro ZL1, Camaro SS1LE and Cadillac V models. They can go against the best.
We all where hopping that the ZR1 destroyed all the competition, but maybe that's in GM's plans with the upcoming ME C8 Corvettes, probably the C7 FE high performance limit was reached with their top ZR1Corvette.

heavychevy

For the record, the C6 doesn't do ANYTHING better than the C7 other than it's lighter and naturally aspirated. I think many a C6 owner, especially track guys would take the reliability and added weight over the NA considering the disasters that accompanied the C6's with blown motors. It was easier then to dominate, remember back when the C6Z was smashing cars on goodyear eagles. Those days are long LONG gone. There weren't ACR's to contend with when the C6Z came out, neither were the exotic manufacturers making real legit supercars like they are now.

Let's not keep talking about the C6 as if the C7 has somehow taken a step backwards. It's faster, more reliable, more comfortable, more refined, and even MORE SUITED FOR THE TARGET AUDIENCE! These are facts. Hard core track guys have no say. Also fact.

herohaki

all the hardcore track guys i race with in track events that uses a C6 as a choice of weapon had experienced at least one major reliability issue on the track, that is one major shortcoming, one guy had his C6 Z break half day during the event and had to tow it back home, almost all the C6 owners did moderate if not heavy modifications to many parts of the car to strengthen the build unlike the C7 folks or those in other cars that just do light mods and most are just tires, brakes, and fluids... C7 definitely have its advantages on track that's proven by so many people, also different tracks can have an impact on how cars perform too, my friend's grand sport outran a C6 Z in one of the events and my ZR1 just casually walks past other cars with no sweat as soon as I put my foot down to the floor.

Yes being light is great, but it's not a GT3RS or Mclaren, that's gonna be a whole new price level... weight is not everything there's also tons of other things that can make the car fast, heck if anyone's that picky for weight reduction just lose 40lbs yourself and you'd see performance gain... jk, the point is the ZR's power to weight ratio is not bad, is higher than some european supercars. The GTR is also known to be a heavy car and its a total beast. Weight isn't everything, you can pay for that weight reduction on brands like porsche/mclaren, but if you got a heavier car, doesn't mean its bad, still can be a great track performer and can make you king.. cough cough don't forget the ZR1 does hold records ..

Robert R1

Economic factors have a lot of do with that. https://www.corvsport.com/corvette-s...uction_Numbers The C6 was bit hard by the recession.

The C7Z has the advantage of not just being released in a prosperous era but in an era where the distribution of wealth is shifted more towards the buyer base for higher end cars. Also, the financing for vehicles is a lot more relaxed in the past few years than in the past.

The C5Z is actually the interesting observation here. The came out amongst uncertainty and as its reputation grew, so did the sales figures. It even pushed through the dot com crash! That reputation was around good HP, light weight and bang for the buck.

village idiot

JoesC5

Another person who doesn't understand why GM declared bankruptcy in June, 2009.

village idiot

GM has always been lagging when it comes to enthusiasts. That's hardly the reason they were in bankruptcy though. They had a crap product and always did their best to make the ugliest cars possible. The Silverado, for example, has always been the ugliest pickup truck of the big 3, inside and out.

Palantirion

- Not true. The C6 has a larger trunk.

And in most people's opinion a nicer-looking *** end.

djnice

You done good. LOL.

SBC_and_a_stick

I can speak for folks that use the C7 on the street, I can speak for launching the car, mile and a half runs, road course, and auto cross proving grounds.The sweet spot for modern Corvettes is the C6Z. I know this based on near 3 years of running the C7 car.

HPDE's still have more C6s than C7s. The fast guys are still using either C5 or C6. I've seen folks pick up the C7 and then drop it and go to C6. I've seen many holding on to C6, and some transitioning to momentum cars. I can't emphasize enough how expensive it is to run a supercharged C7, you think you know, you don't know until you try it. In the C6Z times folks would buy it, run it till the warranty went out. It is different with the C7. You have your hands full making it run in stock form as the heat stresses various things and changing worn out consumables.

Launching the car is tough because of it it's weight. The clutch will be different every time as it tries to cope. By the 10th launch the clutch smells, it slips, and in my case the powertrain goes into some limp mode issues where no code is shown.

Mile and a half runs shows that the c7 has high drag. Except for the C7 ZR1 with small wing, it is not exceptional and very comparable to C6. For guys that mod the LS9 is probably still the best one to try to reach well over 200hp since it's easier to work with port injection and the older ECU in a low drag chassis.

For autocross I think it goes without saying that the weight is a serious performance killer. It doesn't help that the high po version in the C7 are Eaton supercharged and therefore have a significant higher center of gravity than the C6Z. The C6Z had the gearing, the low curb weight, the wide body, the power, and the low cog.

On the street is where the C7 shines. It looks beautiful, it sounds great, it's practical, and adapts to every situation. But launch it a few times in a row and you feel its weight, drive it on a hot summer day and see how soggy it gets, and throw it around a few canyon roads and you'll notice its weight again.