ZR1 at Motor Trends Best Drivers Car Test today at Laguna Seca
07-15-2018, 03:52 AM
#221
Safety Car
The balance between luxury and performance is the reason the weight continues to go up. To compensate they keep adding HP and then adjusting the electronics to keep it manageable.
This balancing act makes the ZR1 is more of a GT than what’s considered the spirits of a sports car with models such as the c5z, gt3/rs, speciale like variants and others. When I look at the ZR1and what it offers, the AMG GT-R looks to be more of a sister car than the others I mentioned.
Theres nothing wrong with that as long as your core audience buys into it but let’s classify it appropriately if the goals are shifting.
With respect to tires, GM should consider offering a non cup 2 model for a fair amount of owners who still want the track pack but will primarily use it on the street. In a way, I’m shooting myself in the foot because all of my tire purchases since the c7z came out have been from getting great deals on lightly used cup 2’s as new owners want to move to a useable street tire.
The Cup tire was mainly designed for winning magazine shootouts and it performed exceptionally well at putting the C6 platform on top when it came out on the c6z z07/zr1 track pack. You only have to look at the PS2 vs Cup times back in 2011 to get an idea of the jump it meant in terms of performance and reputation. I’m actually surprised others took so long to copy the idea.
BTW Porsche has been doing this with tires for far longer than GM. Nissan/Ferrari/Lambo etc followed suit. GM was rather late to the optional performance tire trend. And no the Cup tire was not developed for winning magazine shootouts. It was designed as a track day/ treaded race tire. Club racers were actually racing on these tires in the early 2000's. People shaved them and raced on them before Porsche even offered them as OEM. I don't think any 996 Porsche's came oem with them, I think it was the 997's around 2007-2008 that started coming oem with them. Club racers had them dating back to well before then. They were fast too, faster than the oem Porsche ones which were initially developed with harder compounds and more grooves for water channeling due to rains in Europe.
07-15-2018, 08:48 AM
#222
Agreed, same page... I just think more and more cars are coming with these 'optional' tires... that Corvette has lead the way with for many years. The McLaren also has them, as an option.
To me, it's the same as a Z07 (or ZTK) car vs. a regular car. The 'track focused' car, comes with a track focused tire. When your 'only car' is track focused... then you still give an option for the 'waxers and cars and coffee goers' who will never see the track... they don't need a 'more dedicated track tire' as standard.
Agreed, and thanks.
Heavy, I think with you... you want to live in the world that the '997 was the last great Porsche or something'? Not really sure what your beef is... but let me try to clear this up.
I do not believe there is any smoke and mirrors going on, as Magazines are all testing the GT2RS and getting some phenomenal times. Porsche (to my knowledge) has not said this is a track only tire? This is someone's interpretation. Why can't a manufacture have multiple tires? Doesn't the Corvette do this? The Mustangs? The AMG GT-R?
Frankly the AMG GT-R's 'Track Tire' is the 'Corvette Spec Cup 2'!
There are clearly different flavors of the Cup 2's... and the Corvettes and now this new Porsche Cup 2R seem to be very similar in tread molds. The 'standard' tire for the Porsche, is also a Cup 2... just one with more tread than most. Then (call it their Z07/ZTK package) which comes with a 4 or 5/32 DOT Street tire, more designed for the track.
I'm personally not sure why there is so much duress here... the only cars (potentially) beating the ZR1 right now... are cars that cost Twice it's number and then some! This is a huge win for the ZR1! And why I'll end up getting a manual at some point in the next couple years... for now, I'm enjoying the Porsche GT cars... but there is something that will always be held dear to me.. . with big hp front engine rwd.
I won't be bothered one bit, to take 2nd place to a car that costs twice as much... although, I'd hope that I could overcome some of that deficit in driver vs. driver.
Best Regards,
Dave
To me, it's the same as a Z07 (or ZTK) car vs. a regular car. The 'track focused' car, comes with a track focused tire. When your 'only car' is track focused... then you still give an option for the 'waxers and cars and coffee goers' who will never see the track... they don't need a 'more dedicated track tire' as standard.
Agreed, and thanks.
Heavy, I think with you... you want to live in the world that the '997 was the last great Porsche or something'? Not really sure what your beef is... but let me try to clear this up.
I do not believe there is any smoke and mirrors going on, as Magazines are all testing the GT2RS and getting some phenomenal times. Porsche (to my knowledge) has not said this is a track only tire? This is someone's interpretation. Why can't a manufacture have multiple tires? Doesn't the Corvette do this? The Mustangs? The AMG GT-R?
Frankly the AMG GT-R's 'Track Tire' is the 'Corvette Spec Cup 2'!
There are clearly different flavors of the Cup 2's... and the Corvettes and now this new Porsche Cup 2R seem to be very similar in tread molds. The 'standard' tire for the Porsche, is also a Cup 2... just one with more tread than most. Then (call it their Z07/ZTK package) which comes with a 4 or 5/32 DOT Street tire, more designed for the track.
I'm personally not sure why there is so much duress here... the only cars (potentially) beating the ZR1 right now... are cars that cost Twice it's number and then some! This is a huge win for the ZR1! And why I'll end up getting a manual at some point in the next couple years... for now, I'm enjoying the Porsche GT cars... but there is something that will always be held dear to me.. . with big hp front engine rwd.
I won't be bothered one bit, to take 2nd place to a car that costs twice as much... although, I'd hope that I could overcome some of that deficit in driver vs. driver.
Best Regards,
Dave
Agreed, same page... I just think more and more cars are coming with these 'optional' tires... that Corvette has lead the way with for many years. The McLaren also has them, as an option.
I think you are disingenuous (for an experienced track guy) and cause of duress (your mention) to suggest that fitting a car with aggressive street legal tires and street legal componetry such as a ZTK package is equivalent to fitting a car with race tires and race components.
Save the practical fact race components imply an on site installation or hollering the car on a trailer, the point here is a race car is not a street legal production car by definition.
A race car driving on regular streets gets impounded.
Also, after almost a year you are still asking whether the GT2RS CUP 2 R are street legal.. so once again (and I provided links to Michelin and DOT for this…a while back)
The Nurburing “record” GT2RS and GT3RS Michelin N0, N1, N2 which evolved into the R are unequivocally DOT TRACK ONLY tires. They are RACE tires. They are not legal for street driving. And this means you install them on track site or bring the car equipped with such tires on a trailer or just leave the car at the track...
Unfortunately, for the uninitiated, the whole confusion on the tires thing is also due to Porsche’s misnomer/definition of “road-approved” which a lot of folks interpret as street-legal but really means track road legal.. and after a year from introduction..this "tire thing" coupled with the "OEM stripping" and optioning which is all on "undefined constraint"/not purchasable officially makes the GT2RS and GT3RS Nurburing record holders "ring prototypes" and not production cars..
Finally, I am frankly puzzled at your perception of duress…I am sure that as a track guy you understand the concept of street standards, race standards and “unfair advantage”?
Again, no skin in the game..enjoy the show and just disclose the race tires and whatever race gizmo its there ..
The beginner bored wall street trader with a lot of cash to burn that wants to become a track guy, wins..
The Magazine racers cheer!
And the guys “in the know” chuckle..
all good!
Last edited by Telepierre; 07-15-2018 at 09:21 AM.
07-15-2018, 09:23 AM
#223
Always a gentlemen..yes we may be on the same page that it’s ok to use race tires at the MT test as long as it is disclosed but no, not same page when you proceed with "the corvette does it.. or ZTK same as race tires equivalency and Porsche does the same thing everybody else does.. To the best of my knowledge Corvette has never used DOT classified race tires for their official times?
I think you are disingenuous (for an experienced track guy) and cause of duress (your mention) to suggest that fitting a car with aggressive street legal tires and street legal componetry such as a ZTK package is equivalent to fitting a car with race tires and race components.
Save the practical fact race components imply an on site installation or hollering the car on a trailer, the point here is a race car is not a street legal production car by definition.
A race car driving on regular streets gets impounded.
Also, after almost a year you are still asking whether the GT2RS CUP 2 R are street legal.. so once again (and I provided links to Michelin and DOT for this…a while back)
The Nurburing “record” GT2RS and GT3RS Michelin N0, N1, N2 which evolved into the R are unequivocally DOT TRACK ONLY tires. They are RACE tires. They are not legal for street driving. And this means you install them on track site or bring the car equipped with such tires on a trailer or just leave the car at the track...
Unfortunately, for the uninitiated, the whole confusion on the tires thing is also due to Porsche’s misnomer/definition of “road-approved” which a lot of folks interpret as street-legal but really means track road legal.. and after a year from introduction..this "tire thing" coupled with the "OEM stripping" and optioning which is all on "undefined constraint"/not purchasable officially makes the GT2RS and GT3RS Nurburing record holders "ring prototypes" and not production cars..
Finally, I am frankly puzzled at your perception of duress…I am sure that as a track guy you understand the concept of street standards, race standards and “unfair advantage”?
Again, no skin in the game..enjoy the show and just disclose the race tires and whatever race gizmo its there ..
The beginner bored wall street trader with a lot of cash to burn that wants to become a track guy, wins..
The Magazine racers cheer!
And the guys “in the know” chuckle..
all good!
I think you are disingenuous (for an experienced track guy) and cause of duress (your mention) to suggest that fitting a car with aggressive street legal tires and street legal componetry such as a ZTK package is equivalent to fitting a car with race tires and race components.
Save the practical fact race components imply an on site installation or hollering the car on a trailer, the point here is a race car is not a street legal production car by definition.
A race car driving on regular streets gets impounded.
Also, after almost a year you are still asking whether the GT2RS CUP 2 R are street legal.. so once again (and I provided links to Michelin and DOT for this…a while back)
The Nurburing “record” GT2RS and GT3RS Michelin N0, N1, N2 which evolved into the R are unequivocally DOT TRACK ONLY tires. They are RACE tires. They are not legal for street driving. And this means you install them on track site or bring the car equipped with such tires on a trailer or just leave the car at the track...
Unfortunately, for the uninitiated, the whole confusion on the tires thing is also due to Porsche’s misnomer/definition of “road-approved” which a lot of folks interpret as street-legal but really means track road legal.. and after a year from introduction..this "tire thing" coupled with the "OEM stripping" and optioning which is all on "undefined constraint"/not purchasable officially makes the GT2RS and GT3RS Nurburing record holders "ring prototypes" and not production cars..
Finally, I am frankly puzzled at your perception of duress…I am sure that as a track guy you understand the concept of street standards, race standards and “unfair advantage”?
Again, no skin in the game..enjoy the show and just disclose the race tires and whatever race gizmo its there ..
The beginner bored wall street trader with a lot of cash to burn that wants to become a track guy, wins..
The Magazine racers cheer!
And the guys “in the know” chuckle..
all good!
But, you guys have a very valid point. When you put track only tires on a car, its not a fair game anymore. So all these nurburgring times Porsche did are total BS and need to be thrown out. If those tires indeed added 10-13 seconds, then the nurburgring time is really not valid.
To put this argument to rest, I think Porsche should do a run with regular tires as well.
Last edited by UnhandledException; 07-15-2018 at 09:45 AM.
07-15-2018, 11:16 AM
#225
Always a gentlemen..yes we may be on the same page that it’s ok to use race tires at the MT test as long as it is disclosed but no, not same page when you proceed with "the corvette does it.. or ZTK same as race tires equivalency and Porsche does the same thing everybody else does.. To the best of my knowledge Corvette has never used DOT classified race tires for their official times?
I think you are disingenuous (for an experienced track guy) and cause of duress (your mention) to suggest that fitting a car with aggressive street legal tires and street legal componetry such as a ZTK package is equivalent to fitting a car with race tires and race components.
Save the practical fact race components imply an on site installation or hollering the car on a trailer, the point here is a race car is not a street legal production car by definition.
A race car driving on regular streets gets impounded.
Also, after almost a year you are still asking whether the GT2RS CUP 2 R are street legal.. so once again (and I provided links to Michelin and DOT for this…a while back)
The Nurburing “record” GT2RS and GT3RS Michelin N0, N1, N2 which evolved into the R are unequivocally DOT TRACK ONLY tires. They are RACE tires. They are not legal for street driving. And this means you install them on track site or bring the car equipped with such tires on a trailer or just leave the car at the track...
Unfortunately, for the uninitiated, the whole confusion on the tires thing is also due to Porsche’s misnomer/definition of “road-approved” which a lot of folks interpret as street-legal but really means track road legal.. and after a year from introduction..this "tire thing" coupled with the "OEM stripping" and optioning which is all on "undefined constraint"/not purchasable officially makes the GT2RS and GT3RS Nurburing record holders "ring prototypes" and not production cars..
Finally, I am frankly puzzled at your perception of duress…I am sure that as a track guy you understand the concept of street standards, race standards and “unfair advantage”?
Again, no skin in the game..enjoy the show and just disclose the race tires and whatever race gizmo its there ..
The beginner bored wall street trader with a lot of cash to burn that wants to become a track guy, wins..
The Magazine racers cheer!
And the guys “in the know” chuckle..
all good!
I think you are disingenuous (for an experienced track guy) and cause of duress (your mention) to suggest that fitting a car with aggressive street legal tires and street legal componetry such as a ZTK package is equivalent to fitting a car with race tires and race components.
Save the practical fact race components imply an on site installation or hollering the car on a trailer, the point here is a race car is not a street legal production car by definition.
A race car driving on regular streets gets impounded.
Also, after almost a year you are still asking whether the GT2RS CUP 2 R are street legal.. so once again (and I provided links to Michelin and DOT for this…a while back)
The Nurburing “record” GT2RS and GT3RS Michelin N0, N1, N2 which evolved into the R are unequivocally DOT TRACK ONLY tires. They are RACE tires. They are not legal for street driving. And this means you install them on track site or bring the car equipped with such tires on a trailer or just leave the car at the track...
Unfortunately, for the uninitiated, the whole confusion on the tires thing is also due to Porsche’s misnomer/definition of “road-approved” which a lot of folks interpret as street-legal but really means track road legal.. and after a year from introduction..this "tire thing" coupled with the "OEM stripping" and optioning which is all on "undefined constraint"/not purchasable officially makes the GT2RS and GT3RS Nurburing record holders "ring prototypes" and not production cars..
Finally, I am frankly puzzled at your perception of duress…I am sure that as a track guy you understand the concept of street standards, race standards and “unfair advantage”?
Again, no skin in the game..enjoy the show and just disclose the race tires and whatever race gizmo its there ..
The beginner bored wall street trader with a lot of cash to burn that wants to become a track guy, wins..
The Magazine racers cheer!
And the guys “in the know” chuckle..
all good!
07-15-2018, 11:26 AM
#226
Drifting
Also, after almost a year you are still asking whether the GT2RS CUP 2 R are street legal.. so once again (and I provided links to Michelin and DOT for this…a while back)
The Nurburing “record” GT2RS and GT3RS Michelin N0, N1, N2 which evolved into the R are unequivocally DOT TRACK ONLY tires. They are RACE tires. They are not legal for street driving. And this means you install them on track site or bring the car equipped with such tires on a trailer or just leave the car at the track...
The Nurburing “record” GT2RS and GT3RS Michelin N0, N1, N2 which evolved into the R are unequivocally DOT TRACK ONLY tires. They are RACE tires. They are not legal for street driving. And this means you install them on track site or bring the car equipped with such tires on a trailer or just leave the car at the track...
Unfortunately, for the uninitiated, the whole confusion on the tires thing is also due to Porsche’s misnomer/definition of “road-approved” which a lot of folks interpret as street-legal but really means track road legal.. and after a year from introduction..this "tire thing" coupled with the "OEM stripping" and optioning which is all on "undefined constraint"/not purchasable officially makes the GT2RS and GT3RS Nurburing record holders "ring prototypes" and not production cars..
Once again you are mistaken, the trofeo R have been faster than any iteration of the MPSC and have been coming on production cars for several years. And after that the Kuhmo's that come on the Viper. And you continue to fail to recognize that Porsche has been coming with MPSC since well before anyone else.
I'm not going to sit here and let some people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about correlate the performance of the ZR1 to a GT3 RS. That's an insult to GM. If there is a tire advantage, it matters. These specialty tires are low production, and super expensive, and as you can see by the multiple sets used even for testing days like this (note the piles of tires in the garages and as you mention, a new set of tires per lap at the ring), they just don't last worth a crap. All for bragging rights.
And some of the Porsches were destroying tires in one day. If you do happen upon a track day, they suck after a few laps, and certainly after a whole day of driving. How do we translate the mag hero laps to real life track days then? Well, if you race/track like you say you do, then you'd know the first thing track guys are going to do is get race tires. Most will get hoosiers, some will downgrade to street tires for longevity, and some will buy used slick take offs from racing groups. The tire field becomes much more competitive and equalized. Hardly any are replenishing these factory tires over and over again each weekend.
Going fast is in the details, I pay attention to them, the mag only racers seem not to. I'm here to put trolls in their place. This is fun for me, enjoyment when I'm bored. It's not important enough to have beef. I don't like Porsche charging extra for a manual, or not offering one at all for some models, rear wheel steer, ban on slicks, centerlocks, 21's etc. So my money is on the big displacement American boys. Vette and Viper keeping it (somewhat) old school.
Maybe the tire does work on the street, and it's a matter of everyone else catching up. But no one knows if the Cup 2 R is a Porsche only spec like the N spec or will be offered to everyone else. We are all guessing at the moment. But I wasn't going to let that slide while you guys sit here and act like the detailed facts about Porsche ring times don't exist. From the 991.1 they made up time on the ring with track changes and two tiers of tire upgrades mostly. Engineering and improvements third. Who would have known those details if I hadn't brought them up.
For me... let's get a mag bold enough to put 'equal tires' on all cars... heck... use 'OEM sized' Hoosier R7's and then let's see how the cars all respond. And secondly... get the ZR1 out there with the Manual... quit trying to make the automatic something it isn't. The manual is going to be bullet proof on the track, and help keep temps even cooler. I get it, the Auto may be quicker for one lap... but those of us who track, know that we're talking 'tenths' at the most... I'll give up a couple of tenths... to have a better overall track weapon. (even if GM would just submit 'both cars', so the bench racers would see... the Manual isn't that far behind).
Best Regards,
Dave
Last edited by Dave Schotz; 07-15-2018 at 11:35 AM.
07-15-2018, 12:04 PM
#228
Racer
Nice lineup.
If I could only take one car and had to daily drive it, the M5 would be my choice.
If I could take any car and didn't have to daily drive it, GT2 RS hands down.
720S will win the competition though.
If I could only take one car and had to daily drive it, the M5 would be my choice.
If I could take any car and didn't have to daily drive it, GT2 RS hands down.
720S will win the competition though.
07-15-2018, 12:11 PM
#229
It's tough for me to see 'DOT' on the side of a tire and then hear 'track only'? The tires have a DOT stamp, technically classifying them as Street Legal. When I get my RS, I'll plan to do a Lap on the 'standard' DOT CUP 2's, the 'More aggressive Compound' DOT CUP 2 R's, and then Hoosier R7's. (Which is what I run on my track cars, or street cars, when going to the race track). What I won't be able to do is a lap on the Corvette Cup 2's... and unfortunately never did back to back testing of Corvette Cup 2s vs. Hoosier R7's.
Let's be clear, your definition of 'ring prototypes' are because they come with a better DOT street tire and optionable AC/Radio delete? (Just like the ACR Viper). And also, let's be clear... for 'some reason' the porsche cars always finish Nurburgring laps, yet we still wait since the C6 ZR1 for a corvette time.
A faster car, always has some sort of 'unfair advantage', whether it be 'less weight', more HP, bigger tires, stickier tires, more aero... this isn't spec class racing... so cars will have advantages and disadvantages.
I'm not sure where I said anything that contradicts this? We both agree the Trofeo R is (was) the faster tire? (Obviously no one knows compared to Cup 2R, but I'm in agreement with you). Also, it wasn't about Porsche not coming with Cup's earlier... it was that Chevrolet's Cup tire seriously raised the bar. So much so, that even 'today' the Mercedes GT-R 'Track Tire' is the Corvette Cup 2 tire. The only issue I've even had with the corvette spec, is it'd be great if MIchelin would offer those 'track focused' owners, a non 'Zero Pressure' tire... which would save another 4 or 5 lbs of reciprocating mass.
I don't understand the relevance of a Motor Trend author/driver? I saw his comment, and without being there... it doesn't mean they 'couldn't have' left them on for the street. Which I do agree with, if they're going to 'lap on 2R's' then leave them on for the 'street driving as well'. It'd be like the corvette team removing the Cup 2' and putting the standard Michelin's on for the street portion. They should have kept one tire on the car.
First off... we'll soon see if the GT3 RS is slower than the ZR1... maybe not on high HP tracks like VIR & Road Atlanta, but I personally do not think it would be more than a second behind the GT2RS at LS (which still may not be enough to beat the ZR1)... Knowing how much faster the .2 GT3 is... and to see the .2 GT3RS beat it by 16 or so seconds around the ring.. I think it's going to be pretty damn fast. And I don't think it's all in the tires. They don't swap the tires because they don't last (although frankly, neither of us know this)... they swap the tires because they are significantly faster when new. They did this for the 'standard GT3' as well. And if you are a 'details guy'... I'm sure you know this with your own track car. That's not because the tire 'sucks' after one session... it's because it's worth an extra tenth (or more)... if you're running on stickers.
IF I track my cars? Really? Yes... I track my 'race cars' and my 'street cars'... and my GT3 went through it's cup 2's in about 5 days. I'm sure some could get more days... and others get less. Tracks and driver ability playing a big part here, and then alignment.
Was it a bad detail for Corvette, when the Cup 2 was the better tire? Will it be unfair, if the Corvette moves on to a Cup 2R? I think (deep down) we both want to neutralize the impact of tires, and whether it's the Kumho, the Cup 2/R, Trofeo R etc.. it'd be nice to have an 'equalizer'... and have all the cars compete on the same tire... I would personally love this! And the 'closest' I've been able to see this get done, is with the 'Tire Rack's' limited tests... where they use the 'same car'... and test multiple tires... would be need to see the same principal applied to the multiple cars.
I think your first sentence sums it up... 'maybe they do nobody really knows'... which is why I guess we're on two opposite sides of the conversation. I've driven the .1 & .2 GT cars... and the .2 cars are a HUGE step up from the .1 cars. The chassis continues to improve greatly... and the down low HP & TQ is vastly improved (which was a crux IMO) over the .1 cars, including the previous 4.0. It's more than tires, it's the sum of it's parts... to see the Viper team not be able to break 7 minutes... to see Corvette not be able to set a time since 2009... shows... it's more than a tire combination to complete consistent fast laps around the ring.
For me... let's get a mag bold enough to put 'equal tires' on all cars... heck... use 'OEM sized' Hoosier R7's and then let's see how the cars all respond. And secondly... get the ZR1 out there with the Manual... quit trying to make the automatic something it isn't. The manual is going to be bullet proof on the track, and help keep temps even cooler. I get it, the Auto may be quicker for one lap... but those of us who track, know that we're talking 'tenths' at the most... I'll give up a couple of tenths... to have a better overall track weapon. (even if GM would just submit 'both cars', so the bench racers would see... the Manual isn't that far behind).
Best Regards,
Dave
Let's be clear, your definition of 'ring prototypes' are because they come with a better DOT street tire and optionable AC/Radio delete? (Just like the ACR Viper). And also, let's be clear... for 'some reason' the porsche cars always finish Nurburgring laps, yet we still wait since the C6 ZR1 for a corvette time.
A faster car, always has some sort of 'unfair advantage', whether it be 'less weight', more HP, bigger tires, stickier tires, more aero... this isn't spec class racing... so cars will have advantages and disadvantages.
I'm not sure where I said anything that contradicts this? We both agree the Trofeo R is (was) the faster tire? (Obviously no one knows compared to Cup 2R, but I'm in agreement with you). Also, it wasn't about Porsche not coming with Cup's earlier... it was that Chevrolet's Cup tire seriously raised the bar. So much so, that even 'today' the Mercedes GT-R 'Track Tire' is the Corvette Cup 2 tire. The only issue I've even had with the corvette spec, is it'd be great if MIchelin would offer those 'track focused' owners, a non 'Zero Pressure' tire... which would save another 4 or 5 lbs of reciprocating mass.
I don't understand the relevance of a Motor Trend author/driver? I saw his comment, and without being there... it doesn't mean they 'couldn't have' left them on for the street. Which I do agree with, if they're going to 'lap on 2R's' then leave them on for the 'street driving as well'. It'd be like the corvette team removing the Cup 2' and putting the standard Michelin's on for the street portion. They should have kept one tire on the car.
First off... we'll soon see if the GT3 RS is slower than the ZR1... maybe not on high HP tracks like VIR & Road Atlanta, but I personally do not think it would be more than a second behind the GT2RS at LS (which still may not be enough to beat the ZR1)... Knowing how much faster the .2 GT3 is... and to see the .2 GT3RS beat it by 16 or so seconds around the ring.. I think it's going to be pretty damn fast. And I don't think it's all in the tires. They don't swap the tires because they don't last (although frankly, neither of us know this)... they swap the tires because they are significantly faster when new. They did this for the 'standard GT3' as well. And if you are a 'details guy'... I'm sure you know this with your own track car. That's not because the tire 'sucks' after one session... it's because it's worth an extra tenth (or more)... if you're running on stickers.
IF I track my cars? Really? Yes... I track my 'race cars' and my 'street cars'... and my GT3 went through it's cup 2's in about 5 days. I'm sure some could get more days... and others get less. Tracks and driver ability playing a big part here, and then alignment.
Was it a bad detail for Corvette, when the Cup 2 was the better tire? Will it be unfair, if the Corvette moves on to a Cup 2R? I think (deep down) we both want to neutralize the impact of tires, and whether it's the Kumho, the Cup 2/R, Trofeo R etc.. it'd be nice to have an 'equalizer'... and have all the cars compete on the same tire... I would personally love this! And the 'closest' I've been able to see this get done, is with the 'Tire Rack's' limited tests... where they use the 'same car'... and test multiple tires... would be need to see the same principal applied to the multiple cars.
I think your first sentence sums it up... 'maybe they do nobody really knows'... which is why I guess we're on two opposite sides of the conversation. I've driven the .1 & .2 GT cars... and the .2 cars are a HUGE step up from the .1 cars. The chassis continues to improve greatly... and the down low HP & TQ is vastly improved (which was a crux IMO) over the .1 cars, including the previous 4.0. It's more than tires, it's the sum of it's parts... to see the Viper team not be able to break 7 minutes... to see Corvette not be able to set a time since 2009... shows... it's more than a tire combination to complete consistent fast laps around the ring.
For me... let's get a mag bold enough to put 'equal tires' on all cars... heck... use 'OEM sized' Hoosier R7's and then let's see how the cars all respond. And secondly... get the ZR1 out there with the Manual... quit trying to make the automatic something it isn't. The manual is going to be bullet proof on the track, and help keep temps even cooler. I get it, the Auto may be quicker for one lap... but those of us who track, know that we're talking 'tenths' at the most... I'll give up a couple of tenths... to have a better overall track weapon. (even if GM would just submit 'both cars', so the bench racers would see... the Manual isn't that far behind).
Best Regards,
Dave
It's tough for me to see 'DOT' on the side of a tire and then hear 'track only'? The tires have a DOT stamp, technically classifying them as Street Legal. When I get my RS, I'll plan to do a Lap on the 'standard' DOT CUP 2's, the 'More aggressive Compound' DOT CUP 2 R's, and then Hoosier R7's. (Which is what I run on my track cars, or street cars, when going to the race track). What I won't be able to do is a lap on the Corvette Cup 2's... and unfortunately never did back to back testing of Corvette Cup 2s vs. Hoosier R7's.
You did not bother to read the 911 fine print on warranty. You are not going to bother reading the EPA document. You are not going to bother to read how DOT has to classify ALL tires..
Indeed tough..
Much easier to revert to your "special GT3" or wait for your next GT3 in three years and tell lawyers, EPA, and DOT the real deal..
Got it ;-)
07-15-2018, 12:20 PM
#230
Drifting
Yes, first the track warranty, then the official EPA GT3 weighting, and now DOT. A lot of things are becoming tough for you Dave.
You did not bother to read the 911 fine print on warranty. You are not going to bother reading the EPA document. You are not going to bother to read how DOT has to classify ALL tires..
Got it ;-)
You did not bother to read the 911 fine print on warranty. You are not going to bother reading the EPA document. You are not going to bother to read how DOT has to classify ALL tires..
Got it ;-)
I have no concerns over warranty... everything is covered as long as you don't run 'slicks' (non DOT tires)... if your tires have a DOT stamp... they're covered... please show me all these posts of GT cars not being covered under warranty.
You live your life on the internet, I'll try to continue to live mine through actual experiences.
Best Regards,
Dave
07-15-2018, 12:40 PM
#231
If the tire isn't sold as OEM or isn't included on the car the owner drives home from the dealer, then its not apples to apples when one manufacturer gets to use such a tire vs the rest of the cars its being compared with, period. At least they disclose it, well they did in an instagram reply and I imagine they will in the actual article.
Same with the weight savings - if OEM deletes are included in the Porsches being hotlapped but not available or on "indefinite constraint" for actual customers its also not an apples to apples comparison anymore. This however hasn't been disclosed yet to my knowledge.
Reminds me of the Nismo GTR "record" years back where the actual car couldnt be purchased as such from the factory and was debated for years whether or not it was valid although it stays on "official" lists as a "production car."
May also be analogous to the Dodge Demon 1/4 mile times with skinnies on front, DRs in the rear and race gas...they too would have to at least swap the front tires out before street driving.
Same with the weight savings - if OEM deletes are included in the Porsches being hotlapped but not available or on "indefinite constraint" for actual customers its also not an apples to apples comparison anymore. This however hasn't been disclosed yet to my knowledge.
Reminds me of the Nismo GTR "record" years back where the actual car couldnt be purchased as such from the factory and was debated for years whether or not it was valid although it stays on "official" lists as a "production car."
May also be analogous to the Dodge Demon 1/4 mile times with skinnies on front, DRs in the rear and race gas...they too would have to at least swap the front tires out before street driving.
07-15-2018, 12:42 PM
#232
Let's be clear, your definition of 'ring prototypes' are because they come with a better DOT street tire and optionable AC/Radio delete? (Just like the ACR Vip er). And also, let's be clear... for 'some reason' the porsche cars always finish Nurburgring laps, yet we still wait since the C6 ZR1 for a corvette time.
You are conjecturing and I provide facts. The fact you don't acknowledge them does not make my facts any lesser. No matter what your GT3 says.
In September 2017 Porsche run a "new" GT2RS with three OEM deletes, a weissach package, and prototype N race tires. All these items diligently listed on the Porsche web site as "options" some of them zero cost (Infotainment delete and AC Delete).
July 2018: Nurburing Weissach package doubled in weight. Magnesium wheels nowhere to be found you are on your own.. AC Delete/and infotainment delete...?.
TIRES: CUP 2 R: customers in Germany waiting for six months now...crickets...ONLY for track tests they are told... https://www.pff.de/porsche/index.php...2017/&pageNo=1
Dave, when a manufacturer runs a car equipped with A but then sells a production car equipped with B. The A is a PROTOTYPE.
Simple really.
Cheers,
f
07-15-2018, 12:58 PM
#233
Drifting
YES, lets' be clear:
You are conjecturing and I provide facts. The fact you don't acknowledge them does not make my facts any lesser. No matter what your GT3 says.
In September 2017 Porsche run a "new" GT2RS with three OEM deletes, a weissach package, and prototype N race tires. All these items diligently listed on the Porsche web site as "options" some of them zero cost (Infotainment delete and AC Delete).
July 2018: Nurburing Weissach package doubled in weight. Magnesium wheels nowhere to be found you are on your own.. AC Delete/and infotainment delete...?.
TIRES: CUP 2 R: customers in Germany waiting for six months now...crickets...ONLY for track tests they are told... https://www.pff.de/porsche/index.php...2017/&pageNo=1
Dave, when a manufacturer runs a car equipped with A but then sells a production car equipped with B. The A is a PROTOTYPE.
Simple really.
Cheers,
You are conjecturing and I provide facts. The fact you don't acknowledge them does not make my facts any lesser. No matter what your GT3 says.
In September 2017 Porsche run a "new" GT2RS with three OEM deletes, a weissach package, and prototype N race tires. All these items diligently listed on the Porsche web site as "options" some of them zero cost (Infotainment delete and AC Delete).
July 2018: Nurburing Weissach package doubled in weight. Magnesium wheels nowhere to be found you are on your own.. AC Delete/and infotainment delete...?.
TIRES: CUP 2 R: customers in Germany waiting for six months now...crickets...ONLY for track tests they are told... https://www.pff.de/porsche/index.php...2017/&pageNo=1
Dave, when a manufacturer runs a car equipped with A but then sells a production car equipped with B. The A is a PROTOTYPE.
Simple really.
Cheers,
Dave
07-15-2018, 01:08 PM
#234
I'm sorry that I don't live in your fairy tale land... you were wrong on the weights... the GT3 is 400+lbs lighter than the ZR1... you fail to recognize how the EPA weighs cars vs. 'commonly equipped'. I won't rehash this with you.. we'll just continue to let the car mags share 'as tested weights'... so that it is apples to apples.
I have no concerns over warranty... everything is covered as long as you don't run 'slicks' (non DOT tires)... if your tires have a DOT stamp... they're covered... please show me all these posts of GT cars not being covered under warranty.
You live your life on the internet, I'll try to continue to live mine through actual experiences.
Best Regards,
Dave
I have no concerns over warranty... everything is covered as long as you don't run 'slicks' (non DOT tires)... if your tires have a DOT stamp... they're covered... please show me all these posts of GT cars not being covered under warranty.
You live your life on the internet, I'll try to continue to live mine through actual experiences.
Best Regards,
Dave
Bless you Dave!
Cheers
07-15-2018, 01:21 PM
#235
If Chevy went the prototype route for its ring runs imagine all the weight savings (and seconds shavings) possible! However this would be counterproductive to their stated priority of using their ring time to test and improve the actual production car over attempting to set hotlap records.
07-15-2018, 01:32 PM
#236
Burning Brakes
So the porsche 918 is the fastest non-prototype porsche to lap the ring, is the fastest actual production ring time then the Performante or was that also a protoype?
If Chevy went the prototype route for its ring runs imagine all the weight savings (and seconds shavings) possible! However this would be counterproductive to their stated priority of using their ring time to test and improve the actual production car over attempting to set hotlap records.
If Chevy went the prototype route for its ring runs imagine all the weight savings (and seconds shavings) possible! However this would be counterproductive to their stated priority of using their ring time to test and improve the actual production car over attempting to set hotlap records.
07-15-2018, 01:34 PM
#237
Safety Car
It's tough for me to see 'DOT' on the side of a tire and then hear 'track only'? The tires have a DOT stamp, technically classifying them as Street Legal. When I get my RS, I'll plan to do a Lap on the 'standard' DOT CUP 2's, the 'More aggressive Compound' DOT CUP 2 R's, and then Hoosier R7's. (Which is what I run on my track cars, or street cars, when going to the race track). What I won't be able to do is a lap on the Corvette Cup 2's... and unfortunately never did back to back testing of Corvette Cup 2s vs. Hoosier R7's.
Let's be clear, your definition of 'ring prototypes' are because they come with a better DOT street tire and optionable AC/Radio delete? (Just like the ACR Viper). And also, let's be clear... for 'some reason' the porsche cars always finish Nurburgring laps, yet we still wait since the C6 ZR1 for a corvette time.
A faster car, always has some sort of 'unfair advantage', whether it be 'less weight', more HP, bigger tires, stickier tires, more aero... this isn't spec class racing... so cars will have advantages and disadvantages.
I'm not sure where I said anything that contradicts this? We both agree the Trofeo R is (was) the faster tire? (Obviously no one knows compared to Cup 2R, but I'm in agreement with you). Also, it wasn't about Porsche not coming with Cup's earlier... it was that Chevrolet's Cup tire seriously raised the bar. So much so, that even 'today' the Mercedes GT-R 'Track Tire' is the Corvette Cup 2 tire. The only issue I've even had with the corvette spec, is it'd be great if MIchelin would offer those 'track focused' owners, a non 'Zero Pressure' tire... which would save another 4 or 5 lbs of reciprocating mass.
I don't understand the relevance of a Motor Trend author/driver? I saw his comment, and without being there... it doesn't mean they 'couldn't have' left them on for the street. Which I do agree with, if they're going to 'lap on 2R's' then leave them on for the 'street driving as well'. It'd be like the corvette team removing the Cup 2' and putting the standard Michelin's on for the street portion. They should have kept one tire on the car.
First off... we'll soon see if the GT3 RS is slower than the ZR1... maybe not on high HP tracks like VIR & Road Atlanta, but I personally do not think it would be more than a second behind the GT2RS at LS (which still may not be enough to beat the ZR1)... Knowing how much faster the .2 GT3 is... and to see the .2 GT3RS beat it by 16 or so seconds around the ring.. I think it's going to be pretty damn fast. And I don't think it's all in the tires. They don't swap the tires because they don't last (although frankly, neither of us know this)... they swap the tires because they are significantly faster when new. They did this for the 'standard GT3' as well. And if you are a 'details guy'... I'm sure you know this with your own track car. That's not because the tire 'sucks' after one session... it's because it's worth an extra tenth (or more)... if you're running on stickers.
IF I track my cars? Really? Yes... I track my 'race cars' and my 'street cars'... and my GT3 went through it's cup 2's in about 5 days. I'm sure some could get more days... and others get less. Tracks and driver ability playing a big part here, and then alignment.
Was it a bad detail for Corvette, when the Cup 2 was the better tire? Will it be unfair, if the Corvette moves on to a Cup 2R? I think (deep down) we both want to neutralize the impact of tires, and whether it's the Kumho, the Cup 2/R, Trofeo R etc.. it'd be nice to have an 'equalizer'... and have all the cars compete on the same tire... I would personally love this! And the 'closest' I've been able to see this get done, is with the 'Tire Rack's' limited tests... where they use the 'same car'... and test multiple tires... would be need to see the same principal applied to the multiple cars.
I think your first sentence sums it up... 'maybe they do nobody really knows'... which is why I guess we're on two opposite sides of the conversation. I've driven the .1 & .2 GT cars... and the .2 cars are a HUGE step up from the .1 cars. The chassis continues to improve greatly... and the down low HP & TQ is vastly improved (which was a crux IMO) over the .1 cars, including the previous 4.0. It's more than tires, it's the sum of it's parts... to see the Viper team not be able to break 7 minutes... to see Corvette not be able to set a time since 2009... shows... it's more than a tire combination to complete consistent fast laps around the ring.
For me... let's get a mag bold enough to put 'equal tires' on all cars... heck... use 'OEM sized' Hoosier R7's and then let's see how the cars all respond. And secondly... get the ZR1 out there with the Manual... quit trying to make the automatic something it isn't. The manual is going to be bullet proof on the track, and help keep temps even cooler. I get it, the Auto may be quicker for one lap... but those of us who track, know that we're talking 'tenths' at the most... I'll give up a couple of tenths... to have a better overall track weapon. (even if GM would just submit 'both cars', so the bench racers would see... the Manual isn't that far behind).
Best Regards,
Dave
Let's be clear, your definition of 'ring prototypes' are because they come with a better DOT street tire and optionable AC/Radio delete? (Just like the ACR Viper). And also, let's be clear... for 'some reason' the porsche cars always finish Nurburgring laps, yet we still wait since the C6 ZR1 for a corvette time.
A faster car, always has some sort of 'unfair advantage', whether it be 'less weight', more HP, bigger tires, stickier tires, more aero... this isn't spec class racing... so cars will have advantages and disadvantages.
I'm not sure where I said anything that contradicts this? We both agree the Trofeo R is (was) the faster tire? (Obviously no one knows compared to Cup 2R, but I'm in agreement with you). Also, it wasn't about Porsche not coming with Cup's earlier... it was that Chevrolet's Cup tire seriously raised the bar. So much so, that even 'today' the Mercedes GT-R 'Track Tire' is the Corvette Cup 2 tire. The only issue I've even had with the corvette spec, is it'd be great if MIchelin would offer those 'track focused' owners, a non 'Zero Pressure' tire... which would save another 4 or 5 lbs of reciprocating mass.
I don't understand the relevance of a Motor Trend author/driver? I saw his comment, and without being there... it doesn't mean they 'couldn't have' left them on for the street. Which I do agree with, if they're going to 'lap on 2R's' then leave them on for the 'street driving as well'. It'd be like the corvette team removing the Cup 2' and putting the standard Michelin's on for the street portion. They should have kept one tire on the car.
First off... we'll soon see if the GT3 RS is slower than the ZR1... maybe not on high HP tracks like VIR & Road Atlanta, but I personally do not think it would be more than a second behind the GT2RS at LS (which still may not be enough to beat the ZR1)... Knowing how much faster the .2 GT3 is... and to see the .2 GT3RS beat it by 16 or so seconds around the ring.. I think it's going to be pretty damn fast. And I don't think it's all in the tires. They don't swap the tires because they don't last (although frankly, neither of us know this)... they swap the tires because they are significantly faster when new. They did this for the 'standard GT3' as well. And if you are a 'details guy'... I'm sure you know this with your own track car. That's not because the tire 'sucks' after one session... it's because it's worth an extra tenth (or more)... if you're running on stickers.
IF I track my cars? Really? Yes... I track my 'race cars' and my 'street cars'... and my GT3 went through it's cup 2's in about 5 days. I'm sure some could get more days... and others get less. Tracks and driver ability playing a big part here, and then alignment.
Was it a bad detail for Corvette, when the Cup 2 was the better tire? Will it be unfair, if the Corvette moves on to a Cup 2R? I think (deep down) we both want to neutralize the impact of tires, and whether it's the Kumho, the Cup 2/R, Trofeo R etc.. it'd be nice to have an 'equalizer'... and have all the cars compete on the same tire... I would personally love this! And the 'closest' I've been able to see this get done, is with the 'Tire Rack's' limited tests... where they use the 'same car'... and test multiple tires... would be need to see the same principal applied to the multiple cars.
I think your first sentence sums it up... 'maybe they do nobody really knows'... which is why I guess we're on two opposite sides of the conversation. I've driven the .1 & .2 GT cars... and the .2 cars are a HUGE step up from the .1 cars. The chassis continues to improve greatly... and the down low HP & TQ is vastly improved (which was a crux IMO) over the .1 cars, including the previous 4.0. It's more than tires, it's the sum of it's parts... to see the Viper team not be able to break 7 minutes... to see Corvette not be able to set a time since 2009... shows... it's more than a tire combination to complete consistent fast laps around the ring.
For me... let's get a mag bold enough to put 'equal tires' on all cars... heck... use 'OEM sized' Hoosier R7's and then let's see how the cars all respond. And secondly... get the ZR1 out there with the Manual... quit trying to make the automatic something it isn't. The manual is going to be bullet proof on the track, and help keep temps even cooler. I get it, the Auto may be quicker for one lap... but those of us who track, know that we're talking 'tenths' at the most... I'll give up a couple of tenths... to have a better overall track weapon. (even if GM would just submit 'both cars', so the bench racers would see... the Manual isn't that far behind).
Best Regards,
Dave
The first few tests are always impactful, but once the cars are out and being tested by multitudes of media sources, being passed from one to the next, and tire degrading and less control, we will see more accuracy in terms of comparison.
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skank (07-15-2018)
07-15-2018, 01:50 PM
#238
07-15-2018, 02:13 PM
#239
07-15-2018, 02:23 PM
#240
Drifting
You still continue to base your opinion on ring times that have too many holes in both testing procedures, changes to the track and official times presented and by whom (the last two Viper tries have been privateers with a few laps to set a time, not exactly equal to facilities at the ring and nonstop testing). Yet you want to compare those like it's equal?
In case you haven't seen a close up of the CUP 2'R' (for the Porsche) here's a pic of it... notice any similarity?
Best Regards,
Dave