ZR1 at Motor Trends Best Drivers Car Test today at Laguna Seca
#301
Drifting
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Pizz (07-18-2018)
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#307
991.2 GT3 without SC2 R tires in this test...
Most interesting to me is that the 991.2 GT3 in this test, with PDK and all, was 1 second slower on this tight, short track than the manual equipped Z06. I know it's only one track, and this is not the GT3 RS, but it would seem to me that the MPSC 2R makes for a whole lot of track time gained on the 991.2 platform...
Last edited by CorvettoBrando; 07-20-2018 at 02:10 AM.
#308
Burning Brakes
More HP/Weight makes up for poorer chassis / handling every time. The Z06 has a lot of HP and low end torque. On a short tight track that can be a huge advantage. The other car with high HP/Weight and good low end torque, is the Lamborghini Huracan with that big V10 which had the best time.
In all the discussions of ME vs. FE, it is assumed that the ME always has an advantage, but that also assumes equal HP and flat torque curves. For a real world example the Ford GT, a mid-engine which has a sophisticated race car chassis but “only” 650 HP is slower at VIR than a 755 HP front-engine ZR1 with a (good) street car chassis. Mark Donahue once said a LeMans car had “sufficient” HP when it could light up the rear tires all the way down the Mulsanne straight. He almost got it with the 1300+ HP Porsche 917-30.
That is why i’d love to see the C8 ME with either an LT4 or LT5 engine. Despite all the interest in a DOHC, twin-turbo engine on the horizon, there does not appear to be much, if any, advantage of these “sophisticated” engines over the current DI supercharged small-block, except (perhaps) in fuel economy.
In all the discussions of ME vs. FE, it is assumed that the ME always has an advantage, but that also assumes equal HP and flat torque curves. For a real world example the Ford GT, a mid-engine which has a sophisticated race car chassis but “only” 650 HP is slower at VIR than a 755 HP front-engine ZR1 with a (good) street car chassis. Mark Donahue once said a LeMans car had “sufficient” HP when it could light up the rear tires all the way down the Mulsanne straight. He almost got it with the 1300+ HP Porsche 917-30.
That is why i’d love to see the C8 ME with either an LT4 or LT5 engine. Despite all the interest in a DOHC, twin-turbo engine on the horizon, there does not appear to be much, if any, advantage of these “sophisticated” engines over the current DI supercharged small-block, except (perhaps) in fuel economy.
#309
Safety Car
Most interesting to me is that the 991.2 GT3 in this test, with PDK and all, was 1 second slower on this tight, short track than the manual equipped Z06. I know it's only one track, and this is not the GT3 RS, but it would seem to me that the MPSC 2R makes for a whole lot of track time gained on the 991.2 platform...
"Guys direct from the horses mouth these are race compound tires. Typically our race slicks in a GTD level car are amazing for 90-120 mins of use MAX. so- if you heat cycle them 2-3x in a day do not expect to get much of anything from them on day 2."
Quote from Race Team Owner/Porsche Dealership owner/Baseball player CJ Wilson.
It's making sense now why Porsche had to use different tires for the road test. The other news (less confirmed but reliable sources) is that they will cost twice as much as regular cup 2's and have half the life, which on GT3's has been pretty bad anyways with the chunking of the outer edge in the rear. Sounds like they will be available in limited sizing from tire vendors though. Not sure what sizes though.
By all accounts, these look like hero lap tires. Not a reliable street/track tire, and will be a large part of how the GT2/3 RS perform in tests vs the 991.1's. Like I said, not sustainable unless you want a race car tire budget for your trackable street car. Better off with hoosiers. Cheaper, as fast or faster and more reliable.
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skank (07-20-2018)
#310
Le Mans Master
Hoosier's aren't advertised as street tires! ;)
Most definitely.
"Guys direct from the horses mouth these are race compound tires. Typically our race slicks in a GTD level car are amazing for 90-120 mins of use MAX. so- if you heat cycle them 2-3x in a day do not expect to get much of anything from them on day 2."
Quote from Race Team Owner/Porsche Dealership owner/Baseball player CJ Wilson.
It's making sense now why Porsche had to use different tires for the road test. The other news (less confirmed but reliable sources) is that they will cost twice as much as regular cup 2's and have half the life, which on GT3's has been pretty bad anyways with the chunking of the outer edge in the rear. Sounds like they will be available in limited sizing from tire vendors though. Not sure what sizes though.
By all accounts, these look like hero lap tires. Not a reliable street/track tire, and will be a large part of how the GT2/3 RS perform in tests vs the 991.1's. Like I said, not sustainable unless you want a race car tire budget for your trackable street car. Better off with hoosiers. Cheaper, as fast or faster and more reliable.
"Guys direct from the horses mouth these are race compound tires. Typically our race slicks in a GTD level car are amazing for 90-120 mins of use MAX. so- if you heat cycle them 2-3x in a day do not expect to get much of anything from them on day 2."
Quote from Race Team Owner/Porsche Dealership owner/Baseball player CJ Wilson.
It's making sense now why Porsche had to use different tires for the road test. The other news (less confirmed but reliable sources) is that they will cost twice as much as regular cup 2's and have half the life, which on GT3's has been pretty bad anyways with the chunking of the outer edge in the rear. Sounds like they will be available in limited sizing from tire vendors though. Not sure what sizes though.
By all accounts, these look like hero lap tires. Not a reliable street/track tire, and will be a large part of how the GT2/3 RS perform in tests vs the 991.1's. Like I said, not sustainable unless you want a race car tire budget for your trackable street car. Better off with hoosiers. Cheaper, as fast or faster and more reliable.
Trofeo's are getting validated at The Ring on the C7. They are reds and are trash ONCE they are tracked. If they hold together over there Michelin better have a softer Cup out!
Gleen That Superstars!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 07-20-2018 at 05:04 AM.
#311
Drifting
Most definitely.
"Guys direct from the horses mouth these are race compound tires. Typically our race slicks in a GTD level car are amazing for 90-120 mins of use MAX. so- if you heat cycle them 2-3x in a day do not expect to get much of anything from them on day 2."
Quote from Race Team Owner/Porsche Dealership owner/Baseball player CJ Wilson.
It's making sense now why Porsche had to use different tires for the road test. The other news (less confirmed but reliable sources) is that they will cost twice as much as regular cup 2's and have half the life, which on GT3's has been pretty bad anyways with the chunking of the outer edge in the rear. Sounds like they will be available in limited sizing from tire vendors though. Not sure what sizes though.
By all accounts, these look like hero lap tires. Not a reliable street/track tire, and will be a large part of how the GT2/3 RS perform in tests vs the 991.1's. Like I said, not sustainable unless you want a race car tire budget for your trackable street car. Better off with hoosiers. Cheaper, as fast or faster and more reliable.
"Guys direct from the horses mouth these are race compound tires. Typically our race slicks in a GTD level car are amazing for 90-120 mins of use MAX. so- if you heat cycle them 2-3x in a day do not expect to get much of anything from them on day 2."
Quote from Race Team Owner/Porsche Dealership owner/Baseball player CJ Wilson.
It's making sense now why Porsche had to use different tires for the road test. The other news (less confirmed but reliable sources) is that they will cost twice as much as regular cup 2's and have half the life, which on GT3's has been pretty bad anyways with the chunking of the outer edge in the rear. Sounds like they will be available in limited sizing from tire vendors though. Not sure what sizes though.
By all accounts, these look like hero lap tires. Not a reliable street/track tire, and will be a large part of how the GT2/3 RS perform in tests vs the 991.1's. Like I said, not sustainable unless you want a race car tire budget for your trackable street car. Better off with hoosiers. Cheaper, as fast or faster and more reliable.
I agree with you that for now, none of us know how different this CUP2R tire compound is, but the tread pattern is confirmed to be identical to the Corvette tread and only available on the RS cars. The GT3 cars get the 'fuller tread' version of the Cup2. But the GT cars do benefit from no run flats... also wish Corvette would ditch those on the ZTK/Z07 equipped cars.
If these new Cup 2R tires end up costing as much as we believe (ie TrofeoR prices of $600+ ea) I'm not sure why people wouldn't just buy an extra set of wheels... and goto Hoosier's? Easily would run $400 to $500 less a set... be quicker and last longer.
Best Regards,
Dave
Last edited by Dave Schotz; 07-20-2018 at 08:35 PM.
#312
Le Mans Master
The ZR1 tires are woefully limited! ;)
You get what you pay for, Add $800! Sure would like to see those performance metrics side by side.
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 07-20-2018 at 11:05 PM.
#313
For the same reason, the GT3 (991.2) tires are not near the grip level of the Corvette Compound. It's all semantics... some day we'll get a magazine to put Hoosiers on them all, (or even Micheln PS4S') and do back to back laps, to remove the tire benefit or handicap.
I agree with you that for now, none of us know how different this CUP2R tire compound is, but the tread pattern is confirmed to be identical to the Corvette tread and only available on the RS cars. The GT3 cars get the 'fuller tread' version of the Cup2. But the GT cars do benefit from no run flats... also wish Corvette would ditch those on the ZTK/Z07 equipped cars.
If these new Cup 2R tires end up costing as much as we believe (ie TrofeoR prices of $600+ ea) I'm not sure why people wouldn't just buy an extra set of wheels... and goto Hoosier's? Easily would run $400 to $500 less a set... be quicker and last longer.
Best Regards,
Dave
I agree with you that for now, none of us know how different this CUP2R tire compound is, but the tread pattern is confirmed to be identical to the Corvette tread and only available on the RS cars. The GT3 cars get the 'fuller tread' version of the Cup2. But the GT cars do benefit from no run flats... also wish Corvette would ditch those on the ZTK/Z07 equipped cars.
If these new Cup 2R tires end up costing as much as we believe (ie TrofeoR prices of $600+ ea) I'm not sure why people wouldn't just buy an extra set of wheels... and goto Hoosier's? Easily would run $400 to $500 less a set... be quicker and last longer.
Best Regards,
Dave
Bike mags will test with a control tire which makes things nice and clean. They also allow for suspension changes to deal with diameter and carcass stiffness deltas. Easy to do on a bike.
i do think you’d see some strong pushback from manufacturers in the car industry if trying to do spec tires. You’d likely be better off getting some of the popular youtube personalities putting on a shootout with a pro driver and spec tires. Now that Hoosiers come in many sizes, that’d be a good choice. It’d also take away the excuse for any manufacturer claiming their OEM tire is better.
#314
Le Mans Master
Subjective!? ;)
For the same reason, the GT3 (991.2) tires are not near the grip level of the Corvette Compound. It's all semantics... some day we'll get a magazine to put Hoosiers on them all, (or even Micheln PS4S') and do back to back laps, to remove the tire benefit or handicap.
I agree with you that for now, none of us know how different this CUP2R tire compound is, but the tread pattern is confirmed to be identical to the Corvette tread and only available on the RS cars. The GT3 cars get the 'fuller tread' version of the Cup2. But the GT cars do benefit from no run flats... also wish Corvette would ditch those on the ZTK/Z07 equipped cars.
If these new Cup 2R tires end up costing as much as we believe (ie TrofeoR prices of $600+ ea) I'm not sure why people wouldn't just buy an extra set of wheels... and goto Hoosier's? Easily would run $400 to $500 less a set... be quicker and last longer.
Best Regards,
Dave
I agree with you that for now, none of us know how different this CUP2R tire compound is, but the tread pattern is confirmed to be identical to the Corvette tread and only available on the RS cars. The GT3 cars get the 'fuller tread' version of the Cup2. But the GT cars do benefit from no run flats... also wish Corvette would ditch those on the ZTK/Z07 equipped cars.
If these new Cup 2R tires end up costing as much as we believe (ie TrofeoR prices of $600+ ea) I'm not sure why people wouldn't just buy an extra set of wheels... and goto Hoosier's? Easily would run $400 to $500 less a set... be quicker and last longer.
Best Regards,
Dave
Tires are only part and parcel of a system. At the end of the day the package does what its been engineered to do.
It's like the McLaren is running Corsas because McLaren Engineer's thought it would do better with something else. Who knows how it would drift with a R rated tire.
It won't be until (if and when) we get those ME chassis in a Z51 form that we will be armed indisputably.
The bandaids just confuse the issues.
That being said the ZR1 obvious cheap tire choice is that bang for the buck Corvette give me. The same kind of give me the C5 had in respects to that era +$130K GT2.
The exotics are supposed to be perfect! Your 7:12 Factory Nurbugring time vs the SA Z06 +1.2s was on these same tires!?
I also didn't even look at that whole video before I pasted it here, only the winner. The guys reported on it!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 07-21-2018 at 07:39 AM.
#315
Safety Car
tread pattern means very little. People tend to be visual so assuming correlation is natural. The tire compounds are now specific to the r&d of these vehicles. That’s pushed further by porsche and these Cup R’s.
Bike mags will test with a control tire which makes things nice and clean. They also allow for suspension changes to deal with diameter and carcass stiffness deltas. Easy to do on a bike.
i do think you’d see some strong pushback from manufacturers in the car industry if trying to do spec tires. You’d likely be better off getting some of the popular youtube personalities putting on a shootout with a pro driver and spec tires. Now that Hoosiers come in many sizes, that’d be a good choice. It’d also take away the excuse for any manufacturer claiming their OEM tire is better.
#316
For the same reason, the GT3 (991.2) tires are not near the grip level of the Corvette Compound. It's all semantics... some day we'll get a magazine to put Hoosiers on them all, (or even Micheln PS4S') and do back to back laps, to remove the tire benefit or handicap.
I agree with you that for now, none of us know how different this CUP2R tire compound is, but the tread pattern is confirmed to be identical to the Corvette tread and only available on the RS cars. The GT3 cars get the 'fuller tread' version of the Cup2. But the GT cars do benefit from no run flats... also wish Corvette would ditch those on the ZTK/Z07 equipped cars.
If these new Cup 2R tires end up costing as much as we believe (ie TrofeoR prices of $600+ ea) I'm not sure why people wouldn't just buy an extra set of wheels... and goto Hoosier's? Easily would run $400 to $500 less a set... be quicker and last longer.
Best Regards,
Dave
I agree with you that for now, none of us know how different this CUP2R tire compound is, but the tread pattern is confirmed to be identical to the Corvette tread and only available on the RS cars. The GT3 cars get the 'fuller tread' version of the Cup2. But the GT cars do benefit from no run flats... also wish Corvette would ditch those on the ZTK/Z07 equipped cars.
If these new Cup 2R tires end up costing as much as we believe (ie TrofeoR prices of $600+ ea) I'm not sure why people wouldn't just buy an extra set of wheels... and goto Hoosier's? Easily would run $400 to $500 less a set... be quicker and last longer.
Best Regards,
Dave
https://youtu.be/6ZbYTHWpJ-4
Last edited by BrunoTheMellow; 07-21-2018 at 11:59 AM.
#317
Le Mans Master
My god this is OLD! ;)
The aforementioned SA is way more significant with new cars.
Don't worry I'll connect the dots for youse!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 07-21-2018 at 12:40 PM.
#318
Safety Car
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johnglenntwo (07-21-2018)
#319
The GT is a terrific race car. Race car developer/builder Multimatic designed it to be such. Costs were of little concern. Chip Gnassi developed the racing version of the Eco boost engine over a multi year program in ALMS/IMSA P (prototype) class. The GT is pretty much a prototype race car that was later modified to meet street safety requirements. It was given a waiver to race before the homoligation rules were satisfied. Look inside the “cockpit” of a street model... most normal size driver and passenger shoulders are touching. Virtually no seating adjustment. Luggage capacity is approximatly one basket ball (behind the mid engine). If a ZR1 ranks a 5 of 10 for being a practical street car, the GT is lucky to be a 1 IMO.. that being said, Id love to have one in the garage with the ZR1.
Last edited by Rinaldo Catria; 07-21-2018 at 02:04 PM.
#320
Drifting
He's not a magazine but it's been done and the z06 isn't even in the competition anymore after removing the obvious tire advantage.
https://youtu.be/6ZbYTHWpJ-4
https://youtu.be/6ZbYTHWpJ-4
But I like taking the 'tire factor' out of the argument between those 3 for sure!
Best Regards,
Dave
Last edited by Dave Schotz; 07-21-2018 at 03:33 PM.