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Hard to say, some are replaced because they are burning so much oil (more than a quart every 500 miles) that even Ford admits that is too much. Some just fail completely with little or no warning either on the street or track. When a failed engine is replaced, Ford refuses to let Ford dealership do anything to determine the causes. They are required to ship the motor back to Ford, and a replacement engine from Ford is installed. Everything is "hush hush" from Ford about the increasing number of complete engine failures. For those who had their engines replaced, the original VIN number is not re-stamped on the new block - definite hit to value.
And I call "BS" on blaming it mostly on the owners. That was an original tactic used by some before it became obvious that there are an ever growing list of failures. Speculation runs rampant that the cause is lack of consistency of assembly quality, perhaps poor quality components from sub-contractors - in fact no one knows because Ford has the Omerta policy. Of course this is not happening to every car, but it is happening to an ever increasing number of cars. Well over 60 failures drawn from members of a few Ford forums whose GT350 population is very small by Corvette forum standards as in hundreds, not thousands of people. So much so, that even some of the more ardent Ford adherents are asking questions. Failures are documented on '16. '17, and '18 cars.
Personally, as I mentioned earlier, I wonder if 5.2 liters is just too big of a displacement for a FPC engine for an everyday street car. Ford quickly stopped using the FPC in their GT4 mustangs, went back to cross plane crank, and will use cross plane crank in the upcoming GT500. Maybe that says something... Damn shame that these issues are plaguing this car and the Shelby name. But personally, like many others I know - have decided to move on...
didn’t the recall itself, plus the tendencies of FPC engines, suggest what’s happening?
the recall of late 2015- 2016 Voodoo engines in GT350 was over oil loss, blamed on “faulty crimping” /securing of oil cooler tubes leaving the factory. This presumably leads to oil starvation engine failure.
However, given ongoing sporadic events and the inherent known vibrational problems with FPC (vs CPC) engines, especially those driven hard at high revs, one could speculate there is a component in there (perhaps cooler tube) susceptible to the vibrational stress, rather than just the PR message of faulty crimping. If they fix one piece like the cooler tube, there will still be ongoing stress in the engine to other components. Ferrari also uses FPC and on their forum, someone mentioned a number of 3x the vibrational energy in FPC vs CPC designs. Member UE’s care of his engine at low temps and lack of engine failure so far could just be voodoo and he’s been lucky.
Your theory on a limit to FPC displacement is interesting. Somehow Ferrari keeps the vibration under control (458 engine is 4.5l so in the ballpark) perhaps with better balancer shaft, perhaps with mid-engine design, but potentially there is a limit to displacement you can stabilize. Add to that ford was sort of the new “kid on the block” with their FPC design, though FPC with V8 have been understood for awhile to work like double straight-4 banks.
N.B. The Italia did have its own recall due to crankshaft failure so who knows what happened there.
Hard to say, some are replaced because they are burning so much oil (more than a quart every 500 miles) that even Ford admits that is too much. Some just fail completely with little or no warning either on the street or track. When a failed engine is replaced, Ford refuses to let Ford dealership do anything to determine the causes. They are required to ship the motor back to Ford, and a replacement engine from Ford is installed. Everything is "hush hush" from Ford about the increasing number of complete engine failures. For those who had their engines replaced, the original VIN number is not re-stamped on the new block - definite hit to value.
And I call "BS" on blaming it mostly on the owners. That was an original tactic used by some before it became obvious that there are an ever growing list of failures. Speculation runs rampant that the cause is lack of consistency of assembly quality, perhaps poor quality components from sub-contractors - in fact no one knows because Ford has the Omerta policy. Of course this is not happening to every car, but it is happening to an ever increasing number of cars. Well over 60 failures drawn from members of a few Ford forums whose GT350 population is very small by Corvette forum standards as in hundreds, not thousands of people. So much so, that even some of the more ardent Ford adherents are asking questions. Failures are documented on '16. '17, and '18 cars.
Personally, as I mentioned earlier, I wonder if 5.2 liters is just too big of a displacement for a FPC engine for an everyday street car. Ford quickly stopped using the FPC in their GT4 mustangs, went back to cross plane crank, and will use cross plane crank in the upcoming GT500. Maybe that says something... Damn shame that these issues are plaguing this car and the Shelby name. But personally, like many others I know - have decided to move on...
I am probably a lucky owner. I drive the **** out of my car literally and in fact more than half the time it is driven by my wife (how cool is it my wife drives a FPC GT350 in a upscale town filled with soccer moms driving cadillac and audi suvs?) in the harshest conditions possible. I have now 8 oil changes on this car, all oil samples sent to blackstone came back literally “perfect”.
I will buy extended warranty and drive it till 100,000 miles. If by then nothing fails, i doubt something big will fail ever. In fact, now that I have had 30,000 miles and 2 northeast winters on this car, I doubt anything major will fail ever.
Majority of those engine faillures are due to oil starvation. Either oil consumption too high or there is a leak somewhere (not tight filter or older style oil plugs used). I understand not ideal but for $58,950, its something I think owners should put up with considering the value you get. There does not exist another car on this planet that is
- Naturally aspirated
- High low end torque/FPC
- High revving
- Sounds glorious
- Has 15 cu ft trunk
- Can seat 4 people very comfortably
- Big enough that with seats down you can carry anything ranging from a 10’ PVC to 4x4 (I did this)
- Manual transmission
The price is just icing on the cake.
Yes including z06, there are faster cars. But they all seat 2! None of you can go fast with your family in the back!
Anyways, this is not a Gt350 vs c7 debate, I dont even know why the engine failure topic came up. All i will say is my experience hasnt been bad at all. The numbers (miles/dealer visits/etc) all speak for themselves.
Last edited by UnhandledException; 08-21-2018 at 11:16 AM.
Why cant you guys actually respond a post without insulting the poster? I have noticed this about this forum and you guys are extremely aggressive. You seem to not be able to come up with a counter argument and instead insult the poster about his/her finances and so on.
Corvette, any version of it, is much more of a “masses” car than GT350 is. Corvette is much less raw and much more about refinement and “GT” in a true sense. GT350 is a lot closer to metzger GT3 is than any version of corvette. There is nothing special about taking a pushrod engine and making low end torque and gobs of power. Its so brute force and not elegant. Its so much like jeep wrangler being the World War era army jeep still being the brute force off roader it is today. Do you get it or you dont get it?
Tie my eyes and I wont be able to tell apart c6 z06 from a c7 stingray from a c7 zr1 (except supercharger whine). Every single one of them have the bla bla bla bla pushrod burble and WOT resonated sound.
You need to sit in a GT350 at WOT. Show me a corvette that revs 8250 rpm. Show me a corvette that actually has an engineering masterpiece in it thats not put together for marketing reasons. Corvette smells marketting and profit from a to z. You are just completely talking out of your ***.
the same level of “care” is required for any high revving high compression naturally aspirated engine. All GT porsche engines. All BMW NA engines. What the hell are you talking about?
The tape is for sub zero weather. There is nothing wrong with doing it. Show me a track car whose cooling isnt an issue in sub 0 weather.
I've driven GT350's, including running one on the short course at Sebring. Which BTW is far more on-track experience with the car you own than you have. So you can save your I'm-a-cognoscenti-and-you're-not speech for somebody else. The car has a high-revving FPC engine, the same general feel as lower level Mustangs and very good brakes. It's still heavy. It still sits high, and in 2018, it's not nearly as distinguishable from the 7500 rpm 5.0's. Few can tell the difference between a GT350 and a Mustang GT, the same as few can tell the difference between various Corvettes.
You don't think Ford "smells marketting <sic> and profit from a to z" with the Mustang? It's their cash cow. They make half-a-dozen variants of the car from a 4-cylinder to the Shelby models. It's the definition of "marketting and profit" for Ford. In fact, Ford is basically eliminating its car lineup. Except for Mustang.
Just FYI, people don't track their cars in "sub zero weather". And I've had various cars that are every bit of a track car as a GT350 that I drove in "sub zero weather" in New Jersey and never needed to tape up the front end, or block the radiator. Your assumption that people who have had FPC engine failures because they "dont understand cars" is laughable because you have zero evidence to substantiate such a claim including how they used and maintained their car.
S.
people’s car fail because MAJORITY of them dont understand how to take care of their car:
- NEVER idle a car when its cold (most think they are “baby”ing it). The WORST thing you can do is having that 50 weight oil circulate for several seconds/minute. ALWAYS drive away right away.
- ALWAYS shift at 3500 rpm until oil is at least 160F. Then at 4500 rpm until its 180F.
Majority of those 60 failures are I m sorry but people who dont understand cars. Who dont check oil levels. Who dont understand oil pressure and cold vs warm oil. That engine becomes a ticking time bomb if you are not careful.
I think you may have things backwards, in your two points I quoted, just from an oil flow perspective, and not even including things like valve springs being more brittle and prone to breakage at lower temperatures.
Why? Oil doesn't flow very well at low temperatures, and oil provides more than lubrication. It also removes heat. So high rpms with low oil flow can result in poor heat removal from from crank and rod bearings, resulting in them overheating.
I know, kind of counter-intuitive that bearings can overheat on a cold engine, but that's the way it works.
All due respect, I have never seen one turbo car built properly make LESS TORQUE at 2000rpm and up.
What people call turbo lag is simply the perception that the car makes so much more power as it climbs the rpm range, that it feels soft at low rpm, when in fact it is actually making more torque than a similar stock NA engine at all RPM.
Again, not talking about a T88 Supra but a properly built street-oriented turbo setup.
-I agree with you, but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to a turbo's throttle response, not the powerband. The delay in throttle response is very, very irritating to sensitive drivers, especially when the delay changes with throttle tip-in at different rpm. It makes you second-guess the car, albeit in a very small (but frequent) aspect of interaction. Most people don't mind it, or are simply ignorant to the fact that they could have it better with NA or a supercharger.
- Naturally aspirated
- High low end torque/FPC
- High revving
- Sounds glorious
- Has 15 cu ft trunk
- Can seat 4 people very comfortably
- Big enough that with seats down you can carry anything ranging from a 10’ PVC to 4x4 (I did this)
- Manual transmission
- I totally agree, that's why I still have this:
But I got you beat on payload. This is a full pocket door frame:
And during a 51-day road trip in 2005 we fit all of this, with the addition of a roof pod:
The pod came off for the track day at Road Atlanta. Here it is towards the end of the trip, after almost 11k miles:
Last edited by Palantirion; 08-21-2018 at 03:59 PM.
-I agree with you, but that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to a turbo's throttle response, not the powerband. The delay in throttle response is very, very irritating to sensitive drivers, especially when the delay changes with throttle tip-in at different rpm. It makes you second-guess the car, albeit in a very small (but frequent) aspect of interaction. Most people don't mind it, or are simply ignorant to the fact that they could have it better with NA or a supercharger.
I have never driven a properly-built turbo car with off-idle throttle issues.
I have a low 10 second LPE C5 and that thing rips off idle, no throttle response issues.
Perhaps it is a problem with the particular vehicles you have driven, as in too lean off-idle, which can cause a lean stumble.
Tuning is everything.
The only cars I have driven that had off-idle issues were a stock VW and an Audi (which happens to be my daily and it pisses me off that Audi can't get a drive-by-wire setup to work properly-also crappy reverse lights but that's another rant!!!).
Throttle response off-idle with all of my turbo cars has always been instant.
I have never driven a properly-built turbo car with off-idle throttle issues.
I have a low 10 second LPE C5 and that thing rips off idle, no throttle response issues.
Perhaps it is a problem with the particular vehicles you have driven, as in too lean off-idle, which can cause a lean stumble.
Tuning is everything.
The only cars I have driven that had off-idle issues were a stock VW and an Audi (which happens to be my daily and it pisses me off that Audi can't get a drive-by-wire setup to work properly-also crappy reverse lights but that's another rant!!!).
Throttle response off-idle with all of my turbo cars has always been instant.
I agree that a properly-tuned turbo is a great way to go. I raced both a turbocharged Noble and a purpose-built e36 M3 that we turbocharged. The power was delivered instantaneously on both cars, and they held up very well for many seasons.
I have never driven a properly-built turbo car with off-idle throttle issues.
I have a low 10 second LPE C5 and that thing rips off idle, no throttle response issues.
Perhaps it is a problem with the particular vehicles you have driven, as in too lean off-idle, which can cause a lean stumble.
Tuning is everything.
The only cars I have driven that had off-idle issues were a stock VW and an Audi (which happens to be my daily and it pisses me off that Audi can't get a drive-by-wire setup to work properly-also crappy reverse lights but that's another rant!!!).
Throttle response off-idle with all of my turbo cars has always been instant.
- What I have experienced was in lower displacement engines (2.0-3.2L) than your C5, with lower torque. So perhaps the off-idle torque:internal mass ratio is a culprit? And/or perhaps the initial drag of the turbos spinning up off idle is enough to effect the throttle response. "There is no replacement for displacement"?
Originally Posted by GrapemanZR1
That brings back memories. I had that same M5 with a Dinan Stage 2 package and the aluminum flywheel. It was a fantastic car, and I wish I'd kept it!
- 15 years on and I still conclude the E39 M5-S2 is the perfect car. Every time I drive something newer (CTS-V, newer M5s, etc.) I come back preferring the overall design of the E39.
p.s. I did the Euro dash conversion so unlike other E39s it can seat 4x 6' adults comfortably. 2" of knee room make a huge difference.
Last edited by Palantirion; 08-21-2018 at 07:22 PM.
- What I have experienced was in lower displacement engines (2.0-3.2L) than your C5, with lower torque. So perhaps the off-idle torque:internal mass ratio is a culprit? And/or perhaps the initial drag of the turbos spinning up off idle is enough to effect the throttle response. "There is no replacement for displacement"?
It could be something as simple as not enough exhaust flow just off idle but a throttle tip-in problem might be a tune issue.
Or as you said, a rotating mass issue.
At this point I am just guessing.
That E39 M5 is amazing. The only reason I dont have one is because I couldnt find one in decent condition under 100k miles. What a car. And the fact that you fit a door frame is amazing as well!
I have owned 2 F10 M5s and put 45,000 miles between the two of them. The concept of turbo lag on that car was certainly present but not bad. That being said I think people are saying two different things:
- Getting on throttle and a second or less time it takes for immediate torque to kick in
- Once torque kicks in, the torque curve isnt flat but rather very violant and builds up faster and faster
With F10 M5, if you are in sport+ mode, the turbos are pretentioned and the car has literally instant throttle response. Unless you do the WOT from 1250 rpm over and over, you dont really feel the lag. That being said, that sport+ setup makes the car too jerky and not very compliant so you end up not using it in city with family in the car. If you are in other modes and get on gas, lag is more noticeable but nowhere near as bad as other cars. Its pretty amazing how bmw made turbos work so well.
The real problem with M5 is the second type of lag. The amount of torque the engine builds between 1500 rpm and 3000 rpm is just insane. Until you get used to it, the first few dozen WOT pulls your passengers feel like they are about to pass out. Thats entirely personal as far as whether its a good thing or bad. Some people like that kind of torque rush some dont. I think its addictive because once you get used to it, its literally like playing a video game with cheats on. No car on the road is match and you dont even need to work hard.
I still prefer a N/A engine with a high torque band. I will refer to my cheap gt350 again. 446 ft/lbs of torque at only 3000 rpm (vs 300 at 6500 rpm GT3 has - just comparing to other high revving N/A engines), yes its not as much as forced induction but it is PLENTY. And it works extremely well. People like me who always keeps revs at 3000 rpm anyways just because car sounds so good have no issues driving the car in its powerband all the time.
thanks 4 the vid! Great POV and the audio is great- can hear him blipping the revs at times
- Thanks. Being on an American car forum I feel obliged to share the following, just in case anyone might be thinking Art Cars were only for German makes.
08-21-2018, 10:55 AM
