Let this be a lesson GM. Dump superchargers and TURBO
08-10-2018, 12:01 PM
#41
Drifting
Thread Starter
With Turbos I don't think you will ever get that instant low rpm grunt the LT4 has. The LT4 and LT5 both have ridiculous amounts of torque at 1000 rpm and I suspect getting the same result from a Turbo setup would be challenging at best. The chief advantage of the Turbo always has been it is more efficient. It uses waste engine heat to produce more power while the supercharger consumes crankshaft power to make more power. However, at low just off idle rpms the waste heat isn't sufficient to drive as much boost as the supercharger can at those rpms. Maybe GM will provide an electrically driven Turbo that will bring the blower up to speed at low engine rpms and phase out as engine rpms increase to where it can be driven by exhaust gases.
Bill
Bill
08-11-2018, 11:09 AM
#42
Burning Brakes
I think the packaging argument is just a deflection. They managed to do a twin-cam V8 in the original ZR1.
3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. I'm trying to get my mind around the staggering weight of this beast. This car has gained ~500 pounds over the C6 generation Z06. Coupled with 755 hp most people can't drive the ZR1 safely at speed without PTM intervention. These modern cars are the antithesis of driving enjoyment. How do you gain skill as a driver with such cars?
The ZR1 weight to power is 4.85 lb/hp. A 2900 pound Corvette would need "only" 600 hp to achieve the same weight to power and it would be easier to drive and much less costly in terms of consumables. The C7 Z06 and ZR1 burn a staggering amount of fuel at the race track for the modest performance increases they provide and when viewed through this lens of efficiency the supercharger solution doesn't look so good.
I get the corporate need to look good in the modern supercar _ick measuring contests, but they need to make a car for those of us that want something fun to drive that doesn't require a 2nd mortgage on the house and massive computer intervention to prevent crashing.
3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. I'm trying to get my mind around the staggering weight of this beast. This car has gained ~500 pounds over the C6 generation Z06. Coupled with 755 hp most people can't drive the ZR1 safely at speed without PTM intervention. These modern cars are the antithesis of driving enjoyment. How do you gain skill as a driver with such cars?
The ZR1 weight to power is 4.85 lb/hp. A 2900 pound Corvette would need "only" 600 hp to achieve the same weight to power and it would be easier to drive and much less costly in terms of consumables. The C7 Z06 and ZR1 burn a staggering amount of fuel at the race track for the modest performance increases they provide and when viewed through this lens of efficiency the supercharger solution doesn't look so good.
I get the corporate need to look good in the modern supercar _ick measuring contests, but they need to make a car for those of us that want something fun to drive that doesn't require a 2nd mortgage on the house and massive computer intervention to prevent crashing.
1) Packaging. Doing a four cam, twin-turbo engine under the hood of a C7 would have been very difficult.
the easy way around that is to leave the car in drive, put PTM in mode-5 and let computers make you quick around the track and 2) some road tests by mainstream automotive press indicate that, given consistent driving skill and the same tires (PS Cup 2s), a ZR1/ZTK is no quicker 0-60 than a ZO6/ZO7 and, in some situations, doesn't get through turns any quicker.
the easy way around that is to leave the car in drive, put PTM in mode-5 and let computers make you quick around the track and 2) some road tests by mainstream automotive press indicate that, given consistent driving skill and the same tires (PS Cup 2s), a ZR1/ZTK is no quicker 0-60 than a ZO6/ZO7 and, in some situations, doesn't get through turns any quicker.
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chrisducati (08-11-2018)
08-11-2018, 11:20 AM
#43
The for vs against arguments we are seeing here about pretty much anything related to corvette is almost like a mentality and ideological differences between entirely different groups of people.
Almost like trying to convince the guy who watches Fox news that there are just some fundemental problems with that news outlet and the person just simply doesn’t get it.... Hint hint.... Yes! You got it.
I’m pretty sure while making some improvements around number of areas to make the car marketable, C8 platform will also be a disappointment in a sense it will never be THAT car we want. 3100 lbs. Naturally Aspirated. Not as wide uncle Chuck’s Dodge Ram truck with cup holders that can fit a giant 32 oz drink solving problems that don’t really exist for people like myself.
And this is all FINE. Corvette never claimed to be THAT car. We want it to be. We buy into the hype and thats entirely the fault of the magazines and media picturing Corvette as some affordable trackable street car. Its just not 100%, I’m sorry. Its almost like Corvette is competing with 911 Turbo or Bentley or M6/M8 or Jaguar than GT3RS. We want it to be the latter but it never will be.
Almost like trying to convince the guy who watches Fox news that there are just some fundemental problems with that news outlet and the person just simply doesn’t get it.... Hint hint.... Yes! You got it.
I’m pretty sure while making some improvements around number of areas to make the car marketable, C8 platform will also be a disappointment in a sense it will never be THAT car we want. 3100 lbs. Naturally Aspirated. Not as wide uncle Chuck’s Dodge Ram truck with cup holders that can fit a giant 32 oz drink solving problems that don’t really exist for people like myself.
And this is all FINE. Corvette never claimed to be THAT car. We want it to be. We buy into the hype and thats entirely the fault of the magazines and media picturing Corvette as some affordable trackable street car. Its just not 100%, I’m sorry. Its almost like Corvette is competing with 911 Turbo or Bentley or M6/M8 or Jaguar than GT3RS. We want it to be the latter but it never will be.
08-11-2018, 01:25 PM
#44
Team Owner
The for vs against arguments we are seeing here about pretty much anything related to corvette is almost like a mentality and ideological differences between entirely different groups of people.
Almost like trying to convince the guy who watches Fox news that there are just some fundemental problems with that news outlet and the person just simply doesn’t get it.... Hint hint.... Yes! You got it.
I’m pretty sure while making some improvements around number of areas to make the car marketable, C8 platform will also be a disappointment in a sense it will never be THAT car we want. 3100 lbs. Naturally Aspirated. Not as wide uncle Chuck’s Dodge Ram truck with cup holders that can fit a giant 32 oz drink solving problems that don’t really exist for people like myself.
And this is all FINE. Corvette never claimed to be THAT car. We want it to be. We buy into the hype and thats entirely the fault of the magazines and media picturing Corvette as some affordable trackable street car. Its just not 100%, I’m sorry. Its almost like Corvette is competing with 911 Turbo or Bentley or M6/M8 or Jaguar than GT3RS. We want it to be the latter but it never will be.
Almost like trying to convince the guy who watches Fox news that there are just some fundemental problems with that news outlet and the person just simply doesn’t get it.... Hint hint.... Yes! You got it.
I’m pretty sure while making some improvements around number of areas to make the car marketable, C8 platform will also be a disappointment in a sense it will never be THAT car we want. 3100 lbs. Naturally Aspirated. Not as wide uncle Chuck’s Dodge Ram truck with cup holders that can fit a giant 32 oz drink solving problems that don’t really exist for people like myself.
And this is all FINE. Corvette never claimed to be THAT car. We want it to be. We buy into the hype and thats entirely the fault of the magazines and media picturing Corvette as some affordable trackable street car. Its just not 100%, I’m sorry. Its almost like Corvette is competing with 911 Turbo or Bentley or M6/M8 or Jaguar than GT3RS. We want it to be the latter but it never will be.
Last edited by 3 Z06ZR1; 08-11-2018 at 03:18 PM.
08-11-2018, 02:50 PM
#45
”Cant comment on it, unless you own it”. Probably the most short sighted and arrogant attitude I have seen here. I will probably never own a Corvette, the ZR1 reviews was an eye opener for me. Its not some disappointing car by any means, it just made me realize the market for it, which I am not part of, is completely different.
GT350 offers a far more raw and harsh driving experience than a corvette. And thats what I want. I gave up an M5 for it precisely because luxury, comfort, and features were things I didnt care for. I want raw intoxicating driving experience. I want an engine that makes me work hard, a car that is easy to toss around and doesnt try to kill you. NONE of those things will ever work in a corvette because they simply wont make a naturally aspirated track focused lightweight car. Superchargers or forced induction in a car like this is just against all the things I am looking for in a car.
08-11-2018, 03:58 PM
#46
Instructor
I’m sure people can see the similarities between the attitude and type of responses of some of the posters here and the anchors of some of the news outlets (hence my fox news example).
”Cant comment on it, unless you own it”. Probably the most short sighted and arrogant attitude I have seen here. I will probably never own a Corvette, the ZR1 reviews was an eye opener for me. Its not some disappointing car by any means, it just made me realize the market for it, which I am not part of, is completely different.
GT350 offers a far more raw and harsh driving experience than a corvette. And thats what I want. I gave up an M5 for it precisely because luxury, comfort, and features were things I didnt care for. I want raw intoxicating driving experience. I want an engine that makes me work hard, a car that is easy to toss around and doesnt try to kill you. NONE of those things will ever work in a corvette because they simply wont make a naturally aspirated track focused lightweight car. Superchargers or forced induction in a car like this is just against all the things I am looking for in a car.
08-11-2018, 05:36 PM
#47
Burning Brakes
Government regulations (not just US, think globally) add weight because of:
1) Emissions. IE: While tighter emission controls may or may not add weight vs. previous generations it does add cost, which limits engineering choices for other modules.
2) Passive safety performance. IE: ever-increasing performance from the crash structure. This often adds weight, but also adds greatly to engineering cost depending on how much weight a company attempts to save.
3) Active safety performance. IE: Recently it was sensors, now cameras are mandated. Don't forget the airbags, active seat restraints, braking systems etc. All this adds weight and cost.
4) Fuel consumption targets (separate from emissions controls). IE: Aero is more important than weight, to game the tests. Increased cost of R&D via fluid dynamics and wind tunnel testing. Also leads to much more expensive powertrain components with limits options elsewhere.
5) Pedestrian safety performance. IE: This changes a lot of design features, which changes aero and packaging relative to what it could have been without these regs. This interacts with items 1-4, and increases both cost and weight relative to a lack of this necessity.
Customers add weight because of:
6) Reducing NVH. IE: People want fast and won't buy cars that are irritating for their wives to be in.
7) Added "luxury" features. IE: Copper is heavy, and people are spoiled.
8) Increasing individual average physical size metric increases vehicle size, and increases weight due to requirement to still meet the unchanged bottom 5% size for vehicle operation and safety. IE: As the size spread increases so shall design complexity and weight.
9) Performance. IE: Miatas are much lighter than Corvettes. Although Miatas are also heavier and more expensive than older generations
GM is not retarded (even if their BYO website is). It is foolish to believe that they did not have logical reasons to end up with the final product of the C7 ZR1 for a myriad of influences and decisions. Just because you didn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
The weight gain from previous generations is due to a "death by papercuts" effect and there is no "silver bullet" solution. It is very expensive to reduce weight without compromising any other aspects of a module. And there IS a price point to every production vehicle made. As mandated (government and marketing) fixed "points" in the design and engineering processes increase, so will costs and weight.
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CPhelps (08-13-2018)
08-11-2018, 08:50 PM
#48
Team Owner
I’m sure people can see the similarities between the attitude and type of responses of some of the posters here and the anchors of some of the news outlets (hence my fox news example).
”Cant comment on it, unless you own it”. Probably the most short sighted and arrogant attitude I have seen here. I will probably never own a Corvette, the ZR1 reviews was an eye opener for me. Its not some disappointing car by any means, it just made me realize the market for it, which I am not part of, is completely different.
GT350 offers a far more raw and harsh driving experience than a corvette. And thats what I want. I gave up an M5 for it precisely because luxury, comfort, and features were things I didnt care for. I want raw intoxicating driving experience. I want an engine that makes me work hard, a car that is easy to toss around and doesnt try to kill you. NONE of those things will ever work in a corvette because they simply wont make a naturally aspirated track focused lightweight car. Superchargers or forced induction in a car like this is just against all the things I am looking for in a car.
You knock the ZR1 Corvette because it is out of your league so you come in here just to **** on others cherrios . The Mustang forum is the spot for you!
08-11-2018, 08:59 PM
#49
Glad you went right back to maybe something you might know something about that would be the Mustang! Easy to toss around? Far slower than the Average Corvette let alone a Z06 or ZR1 slower around the track too boot!
You knock the ZR1 Corvette because it is out of your league so you come in here just to **** on others cherrios . The Mustang forum is the spot for you!
You knock the ZR1 Corvette because it is out of your league so you come in here just to **** on others cherrios . The Mustang forum is the spot for you!
STOP FOCUSING ON me personally. Stop attacking the car I drive or how much money i make. Focus on the points I am making about the car and make a counter argument if you can (but you cant). Everything I have said about corvette has very little to do with what car I drive. And every sane person with an above average intelligence and logic with an objective view will agree to them.
08-11-2018, 09:18 PM
#50
I think the packaging argument is just a deflection. They managed to do a twin-cam V8 in the original ZR1.
3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. I'm trying to get my mind around the staggering weight of this beast. This car has gained ~500 pounds over the C6 generation Z06. Coupled with 755 hp most people can't drive the ZR1 safely at speed without PTM intervention. These modern cars are the antithesis of driving enjoyment. How do you gain skill as a driver with such cars?
The ZR1 weight to power is 4.85 lb/hp. A 2900 pound Corvette would need "only" 600 hp to achieve the same weight to power and it would be easier to drive and much less costly in terms of consumables. The C7 Z06 and ZR1 burn a staggering amount of fuel at the race track for the modest performance increases they provide and when viewed through this lens of efficiency the supercharger solution doesn't look so good.
I get the corporate need to look good in the modern supercar _ick measuring contests, but they need to make a car for those of us that want something fun to drive that doesn't require a 2nd mortgage on the house and massive computer intervention to prevent crashing.
3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. I'm trying to get my mind around the staggering weight of this beast. This car has gained ~500 pounds over the C6 generation Z06. Coupled with 755 hp most people can't drive the ZR1 safely at speed without PTM intervention. These modern cars are the antithesis of driving enjoyment. How do you gain skill as a driver with such cars?
The ZR1 weight to power is 4.85 lb/hp. A 2900 pound Corvette would need "only" 600 hp to achieve the same weight to power and it would be easier to drive and much less costly in terms of consumables. The C7 Z06 and ZR1 burn a staggering amount of fuel at the race track for the modest performance increases they provide and when viewed through this lens of efficiency the supercharger solution doesn't look so good.
I get the corporate need to look good in the modern supercar _ick measuring contests, but they need to make a car for those of us that want something fun to drive that doesn't require a 2nd mortgage on the house and massive computer intervention to prevent crashing.
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Lavender (08-12-2018)
08-11-2018, 09:31 PM
#51
Team Owner
Again, I have said this 100x times.
STOP FOCUSING ON me personally. Stop attacking the car I drive or how much money i make. Focus on the points I am making about the car and make a counter argument if you can (but you cant). Everything I have said about corvette has very little to do with what car I drive. And every sane person with an above average intelligence and logic with an objective view will agree to them.
Then considering the price we have a clear winner!
08-11-2018, 11:42 PM
#52
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Mar 1999
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 10,063
Received 3,803 Likes
on
1,143 Posts
"Ask Tadge" Producer
08-12-2018, 12:45 AM
#53
Again, I have said this 100x times.
STOP FOCUSING ON me personally. Stop attacking the car I drive or how much money i make. Focus on the points I am making about the car and make a counter argument if you can (but you cant). Everything I have said about corvette has very little to do with what car I drive. And every sane person with an above average intelligence and logic with an objective view will agree to them.
The following users liked this post:
3 Z06ZR1 (08-12-2018)
08-12-2018, 09:23 AM
#55
Again, I have said this 100x times.
STOP FOCUSING ON me personally. Stop attacking the car I drive or how much money i make. Focus on the points I am making about the car and make a counter argument if you can (but you cant). Everything I have said about corvette has very little to do with what car I drive. And every sane person with an above average intelligence and logic with an objective view will agree to them.
08-13-2018, 08:57 AM
#56
Race Director
i think the packaging argument is just a deflection. They managed to do a twin-cam v8 in the original zr1.
3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. i'm trying to get my mind around the staggering weight of this beast. This car has gained ~500 pounds over the c6 generation z06. Coupled with 755 hp most people can't drive the zr1 safely at speed without ptm intervention. These modern cars are the antithesis of driving enjoyment. How do you gain skill as a driver with such cars?
The zr1 weight to power is 4.85 lb/hp. A 2900 pound corvette would need "only" 600 hp to achieve the same weight to power and it would be easier to drive and much less costly in terms of consumables. The c7 z06 and zr1 burn a staggering amount of fuel at the race track for the modest performance increases they provide and when viewed through this lens of efficiency the supercharger solution doesn't look so good.
I get the corporate need to look good in the modern supercar _ick measuring contests, but they need to make a car for those of us that want something fun to drive that doesn't require a 2nd mortgage on the house and massive computer intervention to prevent crashing.
3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. 3659 pounds. i'm trying to get my mind around the staggering weight of this beast. This car has gained ~500 pounds over the c6 generation z06. Coupled with 755 hp most people can't drive the zr1 safely at speed without ptm intervention. These modern cars are the antithesis of driving enjoyment. How do you gain skill as a driver with such cars?
The zr1 weight to power is 4.85 lb/hp. A 2900 pound corvette would need "only" 600 hp to achieve the same weight to power and it would be easier to drive and much less costly in terms of consumables. The c7 z06 and zr1 burn a staggering amount of fuel at the race track for the modest performance increases they provide and when viewed through this lens of efficiency the supercharger solution doesn't look so good.
I get the corporate need to look good in the modern supercar _ick measuring contests, but they need to make a car for those of us that want something fun to drive that doesn't require a 2nd mortgage on the house and massive computer intervention to prevent crashing.
08-17-2018, 10:11 PM
#57
Race Director
Member Since: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 11,119
Received 2,054 Likes
on
1,306 Posts
I’m sure people can see the similarities between the attitude and type of responses of some of the posters here and the anchors of some of the news outlets (hence my fox news example).
”Cant comment on it, unless you own it”. Probably the most short sighted and arrogant attitude I have seen here. I will probably never own a Corvette, the ZR1 reviews was an eye opener for me. Its not some disappointing car by any means, it just made me realize the market for it, which I am not part of, is completely different.
GT350 offers a far more raw and harsh driving experience than a corvette. And thats what I want. I gave up an M5 for it precisely because luxury, comfort, and features were things I didnt care for. I want raw intoxicating driving experience. I want an engine that makes me work hard, a car that is easy to toss around and doesnt try to kill you. NONE of those things will ever work in a corvette because they simply wont make a naturally aspirated track focused lightweight car. Superchargers or forced induction in a car like this is just against all the things I am looking for in a car.
08-19-2018, 03:34 PM
#58
Pro Mechanic
Pro Mechanic
- OK, I'll do this one more time...it is complex to explain but easy to understand if you try...
Government regulations (not just US, think globally) add weight because of:
1) Emissions. IE: While tighter emission controls may or may not add weight vs. previous generations it does add cost, which limits engineering choices for other modules.
2) Passive safety performance. IE: ever-increasing performance from the crash structure. This often adds weight, but also adds greatly to engineering cost depending on how much weight a company attempts to save.
3) Active safety performance. IE: Recently it was sensors, now cameras are mandated. Don't forget the airbags, active seat restraints, braking systems etc. All this adds weight and cost.
4) Fuel consumption targets (separate from emissions controls). IE: Aero is more important than weight, to game the tests. Increased cost of R&D via fluid dynamics and wind tunnel testing. Also leads to much more expensive powertrain components with limits options elsewhere.
5) Pedestrian safety performance. IE: This changes a lot of design features, which changes aero and packaging relative to what it could have been without these regs. This interacts with items 1-4, and increases both cost and weight relative to a lack of this necessity.
Customers add weight because of:
6) Reducing NVH. IE: People want fast and won't buy cars that are irritating for their wives to be in.
7) Added "luxury" features. IE: Copper is heavy, and people are spoiled.
8) Increasing individual average physical size metric increases vehicle size, and increases weight due to requirement to still meet the unchanged bottom 5% size for vehicle operation and safety. IE: As the size spread increases so shall design complexity and weight.
9) Performance. IE: Miatas are much lighter than Corvettes. Although Miatas are also heavier and more expensive than older generations
GM is not retarded (even if their BYO website is). It is foolish to believe that they did not have logical reasons to end up with the final product of the C7 ZR1 for a myriad of influences and decisions. Just because you didn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
The weight gain from previous generations is due to a "death by papercuts" effect and there is no "silver bullet" solution. It is very expensive to reduce weight without compromising any other aspects of a module. And there IS a price point to every production vehicle made. As mandated (government and marketing) fixed "points" in the design and engineering processes increase, so will costs and weight.
Government regulations (not just US, think globally) add weight because of:
1) Emissions. IE: While tighter emission controls may or may not add weight vs. previous generations it does add cost, which limits engineering choices for other modules.
2) Passive safety performance. IE: ever-increasing performance from the crash structure. This often adds weight, but also adds greatly to engineering cost depending on how much weight a company attempts to save.
3) Active safety performance. IE: Recently it was sensors, now cameras are mandated. Don't forget the airbags, active seat restraints, braking systems etc. All this adds weight and cost.
4) Fuel consumption targets (separate from emissions controls). IE: Aero is more important than weight, to game the tests. Increased cost of R&D via fluid dynamics and wind tunnel testing. Also leads to much more expensive powertrain components with limits options elsewhere.
5) Pedestrian safety performance. IE: This changes a lot of design features, which changes aero and packaging relative to what it could have been without these regs. This interacts with items 1-4, and increases both cost and weight relative to a lack of this necessity.
Customers add weight because of:
6) Reducing NVH. IE: People want fast and won't buy cars that are irritating for their wives to be in.
7) Added "luxury" features. IE: Copper is heavy, and people are spoiled.
8) Increasing individual average physical size metric increases vehicle size, and increases weight due to requirement to still meet the unchanged bottom 5% size for vehicle operation and safety. IE: As the size spread increases so shall design complexity and weight.
9) Performance. IE: Miatas are much lighter than Corvettes. Although Miatas are also heavier and more expensive than older generations
GM is not retarded (even if their BYO website is). It is foolish to believe that they did not have logical reasons to end up with the final product of the C7 ZR1 for a myriad of influences and decisions. Just because you didn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
The weight gain from previous generations is due to a "death by papercuts" effect and there is no "silver bullet" solution. It is very expensive to reduce weight without compromising any other aspects of a module. And there IS a price point to every production vehicle made. As mandated (government and marketing) fixed "points" in the design and engineering processes increase, so will costs and weight.
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Palantirion (08-19-2018)
08-19-2018, 08:36 PM
#59
Left Winger
Again, I have said this 100x times.
STOP FOCUSING ON me personally. Stop attacking the car I drive or how much money i make. Focus on the points I am making about the car and make a counter argument if you can (but you cant). Everything I have said about corvette has very little to do with what car I drive. And every sane person with an above average intelligence and logic with an objective view will agree to them.
I saw Elizabeth Warren in a Corvette...
It was shown on FOX news
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3 Z06ZR1 (08-19-2018)
08-19-2018, 09:35 PM
#60
Team Owner
Again, I have said this 100x times.
STOP FOCUSING ON me personally. Stop attacking the car I drive or how much money i make. Focus on the points I am making about the car and make a counter argument if you can (but you cant). Everything I have said about corvette has very little to do with what car I drive. And every sane person with an above average intelligence and logic with an objective view will agree to them.
It was shown on FOX news[/QUOTE] Here we had Elizabeth in a Mustang seems is having no fun here anymore. Maybe we got lucky!