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I have to say I’m very pleased with the performance and wear from my Michelin Cup 2’s. I read a lot of criticism about these tires, but my experience has been good. These tires came with my 2017 Z06 which I tracked last season and got @ 3,000 Street miles and 4 solid tracks day from. When I sold the Z06 and got the ZR1 I kept these tires and my spare wheel set, for use on the new ZR1.
They have seen @ 500 street miles on the ZR1 and two solid track days... ending yesterday when I pulled them and installed the new set that came with my ZR1. By later in the afternoon yesterday they were getting pretty greasy... still sticky but no longer capable of producing good lap times.
All in all I think they did well... pretty even wear... took a lot of abuse.
My set got 3.7 hours on track with is slightly better than what I'm usually getting from the Pirelli scrubs (3.5 hours).
You push your car much harder than I’m capable of... and I try to be as easy as I can on my brakes and tires while still having fun. So my lap times are 4-5 seconds slower than what Ron Fellows will do, but I’ll never drive like Ron and the cost for me to go that 3-5 seconds faster is considerable.
I came close last year to buying 18” Forgeline wheels and slicks. Cost was just beyond what I could justify... plus up here in Canada, buying scrubs is next to impossible. The guys who are running slicks up here are spending big money to do so and I just decided to stick with the Cup 2’s. That’s why I made the post... to show others it is a viable option for some of us.
Nothing wrong with that and I agree that it's a good option. I was actually agreeing that the tires seem to last a fair time without delaminating if you heat cycle them first. That set of tires had 3 sessions and then they were put away until the next event. They probably even have a little bit of life left in them.
Nothing wrong with that and I agree that it's a good option. I was actually agreeing that the tires seem to last a fair time without delaminating if you heat cycle them first. That set of tires had 3 sessions and then they were put away until the next event. They probably even have a little bit of life left in them.
I was thinking same thing. Tempting to leave them on BUT decided it wasn’t worth it. Mosport is a very high speed track with consequences in just about every corner... not much run off, so if there’s a tire failure it can be quite painful. Also, the thought of a tire blowing at 160+ mph just wasn’t worth pushing the tires for another day... so I pulled them. They’re probably good for more but I’m happy with what they gave me.
If they lasted 6 track days while being drive 3,500 miles on the road they were simply not pushed. 3 track days is about the most you can get out of them if driven proper ~ 4 hours on the C7 Z06, and less on the ZR1.
You are probably better off with the Super Sport/4S if you get this much tire life out of Cup 2. That way you use a tire with a wider range of operation and the car is less prone to spinning out in the cold or in the wet.
Perhaps tangential to the topic, but it looks like you are over-cooking your tires. The wear is gummy, which often means too much heat exacerbated by lower pressures. To some extent this in driver-induced too, and the weight of the ZR1 isn't going to help. Point I'm getting at is that you may be able to get significantly more tread life with a little more pressure and slightly reducing slip angle.
If they lasted 6 track days while being drive 3,500 miles on the road they were simply not pushed. 3 track days is about the most you can get out of them if driven proper ~ 4 hours on the C7 Z06, and less on the ZR1.
You are probably better off with the Super Sport/4S if you get this much tire life out of Cup 2. That way you use a tire with a wider range of operation and the car is less prone to spinning out in the cold or in the wet.
You cannot say that unequivocally as tire wear rates have a lot of factors. Specifically track surface and amount of steady state turning. But also consecutive laps, ambient and track temps, traffic, length of sessions etc. No tire lasts the exact same amount on every single track.
Besides, he already mentioned he doesn't push his car as hard as some others.
Last edited by heavychevy; 08-03-2018 at 08:36 AM.
Questar, i have had the same experience with the cup 2 tire. I have been very happy with the wear and performance. Like you I don’t squeeze every second out of every lap. I keep a set on the stock rims and i bought a set of GS wheels with a set of cup 2 tires on them. My goal when i do a track day is to have a blast driving my car and drive it home in one piece.
You cannot say that unequivocally as tire wear rates have a lot of factors. Specifically track surface and amount of steady state turning. But also consecutive laps, ambient and track temps, traffic, length of sessions etc. No tire lasts the exact same amount on every single track.
Besides, he already mentioned he doesn't push his car as hard as some others.
I say that based on going through 5 sets on the C7 Z06 on 4 different tracks. I don't always have good data I self generate but when I do I rely on it. This does not include Buttonwillow, which imo absolutely annihilates tires.
3 track days is the upper bound, I'm not the fastest driver out there. Cup 2 should last less than that in the hands of a better driver.
I stand by my recommendation, he's better off with SS/4S tires. There is no reason to work with tires like cup 2 that trade off everything for a narrow range of operation in the dry if you don't push them enough to make that grip advantage work for you.
Edit: we haven't even talked about how these run flats behave on track. They are absolutely terrible. The aspect ratio combined with the stiff inner walls make for a car that cannot keep contact with the ground over the smallest bumps. I did not like to wrestle with the car at over 100 mph to put power down over bumpy parts of the track. I'd like to add that you should not only get SS/4S but get a version that is not a run flat.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 08-03-2018 at 01:53 PM.
I say that based on going through 5 sets on the C7 Z06 on 4 different tracks. I don't always have good data I self generate but when I do I rely on it. This does not include Buttonwillow, which imo absolutely annihilates tires.
3 track days is the upper bound, I'm not the fastest driver out there. Cup 2 should last less than that in the hands of a better driver.
I stand by my recommendation, he's better off with SS/4S tires. There is no reason to work with tires like cup 2 that trade off everything for a narrow range of operation in the dry if you don't push them enough to make that grip advantage work for you.
Edit: we haven't even talked about how these run flats behave on track. They are absolutely terrible. The aspect ratio combined with the stiff inner walls make for a car that cannot keep contact with the ground over the smallest bumps. I did not like to wrestle with the car at over 100 mph to put power down over bumpy parts of the track. I'd like to add that you should not only get SS/4S but get a version that is not a run flat.
I appreciate the input and suggestions from everyone.
I have run the Super Sports on the track... they are my “street” tire of choice and for that I love thhem... but on track I found them to be problematic. Not too bad in cool damp weather but on warm to hot sunny days they were not very good. They heat up quickly then overheat easily... keeping them in an acceptable pressure range was nearly impossible and when past that 34-35 psi point (which they too easily did), they came apart quickly.
While I admit I’m not the quickest driver (just an old guy now having some fun), I still post very respectable times. For those that know Mosport you’ll know that 1:30 - 1:35 is quick for a totally stock street car. Ron Fellows best time in a C7 Z06 is 1:26.89 (my Z06 lap times were 1:33). Cosworth Toolbox show me at 1.46 to 1.50 g’s lateral cornering so I’m not sure how much “harder” you can push these in the corners... I know some corners I’m under the limits.
The pressures I run came from the recommendations of Lee Willard. I had an opportunity to speak with him at length last year... about my car, tracking at Mosport and both the Super Sports and the Cup 2’s, best pressure ranges, etc.. Frankly I’m inclined to take Lee’s advice way ahead of anyone here, since he has far more expertise in this matter than probably anyone else.
Im simply trying to show others who own the ZR1 and take it to the track for some fun, that you CAN do so without burning up a set of tires every two days... or brakes every 4 or 5. By easing up on the throttle a touch earlier, being a little less aggressive on the entry speed, still quick in the corner and ease into throttle exit (rather than right to the floor and sliding the exit),.. you only give up a little in overall lap times BUT save a lot in tire and brake consumption.
I once asked Richie Hearns how long a set of Cup 2’s last and he smiled and told me “Depends... I can burn a set up in a couple hours or make them last for days. Lap times won’t be that much different but HOW you drive will be the factor.”
If you overheat the SS easy then the Cup 2 will help with that.
I started the same as you, 6 track days on my first set of Cup 2 and rarely overheated them. By the time I got through the next two sets the Cup 2s would overheat in ~ 5 laps and wear doubled. One day I started at 28 psi and built up to 46 psi. I ran within a second of the best time Randy Pobst did at that track in a new 911 2S, and did so for 15 minutes straight.
Can drivers make a difference on tire wear holding lap time constant? Yes. At typical HPDE speeds the driver can be gentle on tires. My cool down lap is about equal to the next HPDE group fast time. Clearly I'm not pushing the tire then, and maybe only tap the brakes once or twice. But if we run within 3 seconds of what the car can do in the best hands the tire use will be huge and similar. The overwhelming factors are how fast you go, the 3,600lb of car, tire compound, and the low thread depth street tires.
I don't know whether that's high G or low G. Depends on the turn. At Laguna Seca I max out grip at 1.2 in turn 11, but can do as much as 1.6 in four other turns.
You shouldn't continue to prod a guy to downgrade his tires because he doesn't meet a standard of tire wear, that is inaccurate. 1:33 to Ron Fellows 1:26 is very respectable.
You may not have understood what I meant. Drivers being easy on tires does not mean being slow. Jenson Button was historically easy on tires in F1. I got 20 heat cycles regularly from A6's. I am not slow, ever. These same tires were hot lapped in consecutive sessions one weekend at Road Atlanta by me and Grand Am champion driver Andrew Davis. The last lap before they corded was a 1:26.9 which was the lap record, until I reset it the next day with a 1:26.3 on fresh tires.
Combine easy on tires, yet fast driving with an easy on tires track. I went and looked because I thought I recalled a race broadcast and some track guys mention Mosport as very easy on tires. It has a reputation for it. You can look it up. Even though you've been to 4 tracks it doesn't mean any of them are truly easy on tires. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This man is fast enough to drive whatever tires he wants.
Last edited by heavychevy; 08-03-2018 at 08:02 PM.
You shouldn't continue to prod a guy to downgrade his tires because he doesn't meet a standard of tire wear, that is inaccurate. 1:33 to Ron Fellows 1:26 is very respectable.
You may not have understood what I meant. Drivers being easy on tires does not mean being slow. Jenson Button was historically easy on tires in F1. I got 20 heat cycles regularly from A6's. I am not slow, ever. These same tires were hot lapped in consecutive sessions one weekend at Road Atlanta by me and Grand Am champion driver Andrew Davis. The last lap before they corded was a 1:26.9 which was the lap record, until I reset it the next day with a 1:26.3 on fresh tires.
Combine easy on tires, yet fast driving with an easy on tires track. I went and looked because I thought I recalled a race broadcast and some track guys mention Mosport as very easy on tires. It has a reputation for it. You can look it up. Even though you've been to 4 tracks it doesn't mean any of them are truly easy on tires. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This man is fast enough to drive whatever tires he wants.
You are the only one who sees it as a downgrade. The SS/4S will be faster the first few laps on a cold day, in the wet, and in most conditions on the street. In addition, if not run-flat they may be even faster on a hot dry day if the track is bumpy. Non-run flat will also be way more comfortable on the street.
These A6 you talk about were on a 3,600lb 755hp car? I get easily 30 heat cycles out of tires softer than Hoosier A compound, so what? I'm sure many lap records are set on auto cross compound, so what?
Think that every argument you make for how easy the driver is on tires while being fast applies to using SS/4S tires over Cup 2. Because if he really is the most gentle driver without losing speed then he will also be good at driving on SS/4S without overheating them.
Why not have a car that's faster in 99% of the miles driven, for a 1 second/lap deficit on those really hot days?
The 1:33 was in my Z06... on the tires pictured above... late last year. With my ZR1 three weeks ago, on those same tires, I did a 1:30 (with traffic). I didn’t mention it because no other ZR1’s have run Mosport yet (as far as I know) so I don’t have a comparative. I’ve been trying to get Ron to post a lap time, but he never got a chance during the IMSA weekend when GM had the ZR1 pace car here. I offered to let him use mine but he is waiting for his own car to arrive. Regardless, sub 1:30 is very respectable at Mosport... certainly NOT considered “slow”.
You are the only one who sees it as a downgrade. The SS/4S will be faster the first few laps on a cold day, in the wet, and in most conditions on the street. In addition, if not run-flat they may be even faster on a hot dry day if the track is bumpy. Non-run flat will also be way more comfortable on the street.
These A6 you talk about were on a 3,600lb 755hp car? I get easily 30 heat cycles out of tires softer than Hoosier A compound, so what? I'm sure many lap records are set on auto cross compound, so what?
Think that every argument you make for how easy the driver is on tires while being fast applies to using SS/4S tires over Cup 2. Because if he really is the most gentle driver without losing speed then he will also be good at driving on SS/4S without overheating them.
Why not have a car that's faster in 99% of the miles driven, for a 1 second/lap deficit on those really hot days?
Because it's his car and his preference. Super sports aren't faster on track unless it's raining. Period. The ZR1 is heavy, so getting heat on Cup 2's isn't going to be hard.
I drove the off the shelf cup 1's on my 3650 lbs full weight plus roll bar street car. And these were stock sized at 225/18 front and 295/18 rear. I also drove Cups on a 3800 plus lbs Mustang GT350 R. Then add in my 230 lbs and a 180 lb passenger. Tires were bald. Did 1:32 hand timed (by passenger) at Road Atlanta.
You aren't getting 30 heat cycles driving anywhere near as fast as I am.
My point is that you need to leave the guy alone about his tires. You haven't considered or experienced all of the conditions in which he drives. So your assumptions are off base. And frankly it's just poor taste to even suggest such a thing because according to you, he couldn't be pushing his tires. If I'm not mistaken, his delta to Ron was less than your delta to Randy at Laguna. How is that not sufficient?
Last edited by heavychevy; 08-03-2018 at 09:07 PM.
Because it's his car and his preference. Super sports aren't faster on track unless it's raining. Period. The ZR1 is heavy, so getting heat on Cup 2's isn't going to be hard.
I drove the off the shelf cup 1's on my 3650 lbs full weight plus roll bar street car. And these were stock sized at 225/18 front and 295/18 rear. I also drove Cups on a 3800 plus lbs Mustang GT350 R. Then add in my 230 lbs and a 180 lb passenger. Tires were bald. Did 1:32 hand timed (by passenger) at Road Atlanta.
You aren't getting 30 heat cycles driving anywhere near as fast as I am.
My point is that you need to leave the guy alone about his tires. You haven't considered or experienced all of the conditions in which he drives. So your assumptions are off base. And frankly it's just poor taste to even suggest such a thing because according to you, he couldn't be pushing his tires. If I'm not mistaken, his delta to Ron was less than your delta to Randy at Laguna. How is that not sufficient?
Oh, so if I get 30 heat cycles and you don't it is about being fast. Got it. Nice contradiction you got going on there. When our OP will be 3 to 5 seconds faster and his tire wear will double I can't wait to see what theory you cook up for that one.
While I got 3 track days out of Cup 2s he only gets 2. Why? Seems obvious to me that he's a better driver. I could be but hurt and make up all sorts of novels about how smooth of a driver I am and still fast and yet get lower tire wear. But I'm not going to.
FYI: if you want that in sessions, the guy gets only 6 (20 minute) sessions out of the fronts. See "My Cup 2 only last for six sessions and the fronts are done." https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1594609096
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 08-03-2018 at 09:51 PM.
I have to say I’m very pleased with the performance and wear from my Michelin Cup 2’s. I read a lot of criticism about these tires, but my experience has been good. These tires came with my 2017 Z06 which I tracked last season and got @ 3,000 Street miles and 4 solid tracks day from. When I sold the Z06 and got the ZR1 I kept these tires and my spare wheel set, for use on the new ZR1.
They have seen @ 500 street miles on the ZR1 and two solid track days... ending yesterday when I pulled them and installed the new set that came with my ZR1. By later in the afternoon yesterday they were getting pretty greasy... still sticky but no longer capable of producing good lap times.
All in all I think they did well... pretty even wear... took a lot of abuse.
Front tire gets worked! I'm not sure if these will work since they are time track. Definitely a nice tire though.
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 08-04-2018 at 12:02 AM.
Oh, so if I get 30 heat cycles and you don't it is about being fast. Got it. Nice contradiction you got going on there. When our OP will be 3 to 5 seconds faster and his tire wear will double I can't wait to see what theory you cook up for that one.
While I got 3 track days out of Cup 2s he only gets 2. Why? Seems obvious to me that he's a better driver. I could be but hurt and make up all sorts of novels about how smooth of a driver I am and still fast and yet get lower tire wear. But I'm not going to.
FYI: if you want that in sessions, the guy gets only 6 (20 minute) sessions out of the fronts. See "My Cup 2 only last for six sessions and the fronts are done." https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1594609096
See that's where you're wrong, Im not judging your speed by how many heat cycles you got, I'm judging it by your claimed lap times. I've done laps back to back with pros, in same cars as pros etc. There are no large deficits, if any. I've been in similar/same car as Randy at a couple tracks too. Besides, as far as I know you still don't drive on any tracks as tire friendly as Road Atlanta or Mosport. Remember, I said it's not just about the driver.
Now that's out of the way, 30 heat cycles in a full bodied car on a slick tire? Let's see some videos and some laps. We can judge the speed from those. Since we are being all judgmental up in here. Then maybe I can tell you if your tire wear is sufficient for the compound of the tire. Or if you are pushing your tires hard enough. Maybe it's you who needs to downgrade. See what I did there?
Last edited by heavychevy; 08-03-2018 at 11:58 PM.
08-02-2018, 06:10 PM
Cup 2 Track Wear
