New article w/GT2 RS and 720S
#41
Since the launch of the GT2RS in June 17, some of this has been discussed at length at least 6 months ago on the other side of the pond.
GT2RS gas consumption is one side of the coin. The other is that GT2RS comes stock with a "weight saving race tank" @ approx. 15 gallons..with a regular/bigger 17 gal available as an option. Stock smaller tank = quicker to empty..
The 1.2 gallon I/C water sprayer tank is actually becoming an overheating/nannies issue as well due to its rapid rate of consumption..
Finally, remember the 700 DIN is calculated on 77F IATs versus the 755 (104F) SAE... so basically once that tank depletes it may be "game over" unless of course you install the ring record dry ice kit..
GT2RS gas consumption is one side of the coin. The other is that GT2RS comes stock with a "weight saving race tank" @ approx. 15 gallons..with a regular/bigger 17 gal available as an option. Stock smaller tank = quicker to empty..
The 1.2 gallon I/C water sprayer tank is actually becoming an overheating/nannies issue as well due to its rapid rate of consumption..
Finally, remember the 700 DIN is calculated on 77F IATs versus the 755 (104F) SAE... so basically once that tank depletes it may be "game over" unless of course you install the ring record dry ice kit..
#42
Le Mans Master
- Like they didn't make their own engines in house? Oh, but they did. Besides since no OEM directly manufactures most of the parts that go on their car so there is no logic in assuming quality levels between major and minor manufacturers based on your fallacious implication.
#43
Safety Car
- Like they didn't make their own engines in house? Oh, but they did. Besides since no OEM directly manufactures most of the parts that go on their car so there is no logic in assuming quality levels between major and minor manufacturers based on your fallacious implication.
#44
- That was at Road America? If so then that translates to 8 laps at Willow, which if we estimate 1.34 minutes per lap (running 1:20s) it would mean that it would run out of gas in 32 minutes. So it could finish a single 25min session but with little reserve and hopefully no low-tank fuel starvation in 2 or the Omega. Geez, I thought the ZR1 was thirsty, but it can at least do a full session AND drive to town for gas and lunch.
I would love to see someone test the GT2-RS with and without the misters to see how much its performance falls off. It's only a little quicker than the ZR1 when the magazines are topping off the misters and controlling tests to reflect unrealistic tracking conditions.I must presume the German will fair poorly if lap times were taken 1/2 way through (or at the end of) a full session.
I would love to see someone test the GT2-RS with and without the misters to see how much its performance falls off. It's only a little quicker than the ZR1 when the magazines are topping off the misters and controlling tests to reflect unrealistic tracking conditions.I must presume the German will fair poorly if lap times were taken 1/2 way through (or at the end of) a full session.
Last edited by Poor-sha; 09-06-2018 at 09:05 AM.
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Palantirion (09-06-2018)
#45
Steven and I had exchanged some PMs where I promised him I wouldnt post anything critiquing ZR1 anymore not because what I am posting is inflamatory or trolling but because it is just upsetting so many people and it was never my intention to cause drama here. But I want to post one last message to clear the air.
You guys have been missing my point since day one. First and foremost, dont be suprised if one day I post pictures of my gt350 with a zr1 next to it. I actually quite like the car.
What I dont like (and I have a tendency to do the same for other things in life, its my personality) is the ignorance and people putting on blinders. What I dont like is people picking and choosing the strengths of this car and twisting the truth so they dont face the reality. People coming here and saying:
- When ZR1 does bad in a 1/4 mile race, “oh but its not meant for drag strip, its a track car”
- When it posts a bad track time (like that ZL1 comparison in Germany or very close Z06 time motor trend posted), “oh but its not meant to be a track car, its a luxury grand tourer”.
People have to understand and accept the car for what it is. The hype has to die down.
And why that has to happen is because that will make the changes in GM that we will all benefit. Enough of the band aid solutions (adding more power where the problem is not enough weight reduction). Enough of the incomplete car launches and marketing disasters (Nurburgring picture behind Z06 launch in detroit auto show but no nurburgring time, claims by Tadge about the most “track capable corvette z06” which cant complete 5 full laps.
GM is getting away with these “fiascos” because YOU, the BLINDER people let them. Its like some people will vote for a person because he/she is republican/democrat not because he/she is fit to be a president and lead others but because they are so single minded, so stubborn that they will only vote for one party. You know the type. I am trying my best here to expose that mentality gets us, the enthusiasts, nowhere.
Similar to how people made Porsche listen to make a 6MT GT3 (imagine the complex logistics and cost of this change), we, the market, can make GM listen. All it will take is people stop drinking the koolaid and be objective.
The summary is this, ZR1 is what Z06 should have been MINUS the uber extra fuel injection/downforce/carbon fiber everywhere items
that make it a $140,000 car it is. All GM had to do was to give the cooling Z06 needed in the proper form.
Furthermore, the price of $140,000 is too high for what you get. I dont understand why they couldnt price this car like they priced Z06. Z06 is priced so well, it is a bargain.
Lastly, GM needs to find a way to come up with an elegant, lightweight, bespoke track car. You guys keep making fun of my GT350 but what I like about that car is its bespoke. Its engine will never show up in any model of Ford. You keep making the argument that GM can make corvette so affordable by sharing its components with other models in their lineup. Thats BS. How can Ford make a complete bespoke engine, new transmission, completely new drive terrain that shares very little with other models?
I want GM to come up with a TRUE porsche GT3 competitor. I am not asking for them to make a car that will go faster around the lap. Thats like putting makeup on a pig. I want something unique about this track car that no other GM car besides its own variations (aka GT3 and GT3RS similarity) will have. And I want them
to sell it at an affordable price.
I want all of these things not because I am a troll or I hate Corvette. I want these things because I hate having to bend backwards to these moronic porsche dealership empire. I dont want to spend my hard earned money on a german car. I live in America and I want Americans to beat Germans.
I hope this post clarifies my point. I genuienly think we can make a change if enough of us speaks. Enough of us makes youtube videos or blogs.
You guys have been missing my point since day one. First and foremost, dont be suprised if one day I post pictures of my gt350 with a zr1 next to it. I actually quite like the car.
What I dont like (and I have a tendency to do the same for other things in life, its my personality) is the ignorance and people putting on blinders. What I dont like is people picking and choosing the strengths of this car and twisting the truth so they dont face the reality. People coming here and saying:
- When ZR1 does bad in a 1/4 mile race, “oh but its not meant for drag strip, its a track car”
- When it posts a bad track time (like that ZL1 comparison in Germany or very close Z06 time motor trend posted), “oh but its not meant to be a track car, its a luxury grand tourer”.
People have to understand and accept the car for what it is. The hype has to die down.
And why that has to happen is because that will make the changes in GM that we will all benefit. Enough of the band aid solutions (adding more power where the problem is not enough weight reduction). Enough of the incomplete car launches and marketing disasters (Nurburgring picture behind Z06 launch in detroit auto show but no nurburgring time, claims by Tadge about the most “track capable corvette z06” which cant complete 5 full laps.
GM is getting away with these “fiascos” because YOU, the BLINDER people let them. Its like some people will vote for a person because he/she is republican/democrat not because he/she is fit to be a president and lead others but because they are so single minded, so stubborn that they will only vote for one party. You know the type. I am trying my best here to expose that mentality gets us, the enthusiasts, nowhere.
Similar to how people made Porsche listen to make a 6MT GT3 (imagine the complex logistics and cost of this change), we, the market, can make GM listen. All it will take is people stop drinking the koolaid and be objective.
The summary is this, ZR1 is what Z06 should have been MINUS the uber extra fuel injection/downforce/carbon fiber everywhere items
that make it a $140,000 car it is. All GM had to do was to give the cooling Z06 needed in the proper form.
Furthermore, the price of $140,000 is too high for what you get. I dont understand why they couldnt price this car like they priced Z06. Z06 is priced so well, it is a bargain.
Lastly, GM needs to find a way to come up with an elegant, lightweight, bespoke track car. You guys keep making fun of my GT350 but what I like about that car is its bespoke. Its engine will never show up in any model of Ford. You keep making the argument that GM can make corvette so affordable by sharing its components with other models in their lineup. Thats BS. How can Ford make a complete bespoke engine, new transmission, completely new drive terrain that shares very little with other models?
I want GM to come up with a TRUE porsche GT3 competitor. I am not asking for them to make a car that will go faster around the lap. Thats like putting makeup on a pig. I want something unique about this track car that no other GM car besides its own variations (aka GT3 and GT3RS similarity) will have. And I want them
to sell it at an affordable price.
I want all of these things not because I am a troll or I hate Corvette. I want these things because I hate having to bend backwards to these moronic porsche dealership empire. I dont want to spend my hard earned money on a german car. I live in America and I want Americans to beat Germans.
I hope this post clarifies my point. I genuienly think we can make a change if enough of us speaks. Enough of us makes youtube videos or blogs.
#46
Safety Car
Who cares? Who are you to tell people what they should and shouldn't prioritize in their car? Who are you to tell people what to hype up based on their excitement level? And above all who are you to demand a GT3 competitor when you dont even go to the track. GM built the car they meant to build and it will outsell all the 911's put together. If you do not like it take a hike I don't want to own a C7 but I respect those that do and understand why GM builds the car they do. It has its problems, but then so do 911's, including GT3's. GM isn't trying to copy Porsche. Never have.
Get over yourself. Nobody cares. And yes you most certainly have been a troll.
Get over yourself. Nobody cares. And yes you most certainly have been a troll.
Last edited by heavychevy; 09-06-2018 at 09:30 AM.
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#47
Who cares? Who are you to tell people what they should and shouldn't prioritize in their car? Who are you to tell people what to hype up based on their excitement level? And above all who are you to demand a GT3 competitor when you dont even go to the track. GM built the car they meant to build and it will outsell all the 911's put together. If you do not like it take a hike I don't want to own a C7 but I respect those that do and understand why GM builds the car they do. It has its problems, but then so do 911's, including GT3's. GM isn't trying to copy Porsche. Never have.
Get over yourself. Nobody cares. And yes you most certainly have been a troll.
Get over yourself. Nobody cares. And yes you most certainly have been a troll.
I am doing this because GM, the company behind Corvette, the one in Detroit, makes claims about their cars getting people like me interested. If they never put a nurburgring poster in their launch, never test their cars in nurburgring, if their chief engineer never made claims about “the most track readiness” but instead said, “hey guys, this is just a luxurious fast grand tourer like porsche turbo or bmw m6 or bentley or ferrari 488. Its not really for track”. I wouldnt even be here.
I believe there is a segment of corvette market that GM should carve out for a proper GT3 class car. Which the C6 Z06 truly was, wasnt it? I think they can come out with a naturally aspirated, 3250 lbs, mid 500hp, mid engine car which doesnt have heated and cooled seats and whatever other luxury items you guys want. And thats all I am saying. They can still have the “king” making 1000 hp weighing 3700 lbs. the issue right now is Z06 overheats and ZR1 is too heavy. Both cars have issue putting power down (this article you quote explains how well 911 is balanced and puts the power down). None of what I am saying is trolling. Stop the personal attacks and try and understand where I am coming from.
#48
Back to the topic of GT2RS vs ZR1. I spoke to Mike and didn't get quite as precise a weight as I'd hoped but he said the GT2RS was 3520 lbs with a full tank and him in it so about 3190 without fuel. When we spoke he said the car had about 3/4 tank and it was a 100L tank but his text with the weights said full tank. Anyway, you're looking at around 3350 lbs for a real world GT2RS without driver and with a full fuel load. I didn't ask him if the intercooler spray tank was full
For comparison, a 3ZR ZR1 manual is 3647, 1ZR subtract 35 lbs, so you're looking at a 250-300 lb delta between the cars. Running aftermarket 18" wheels and tires will bring that down closer to a 200 lb delta, you could probably drop another 100 lbs with aftermarket race seats, this really comes down to your bench for racing and your rules.
For comparison, a 3ZR ZR1 manual is 3647, 1ZR subtract 35 lbs, so you're looking at a 250-300 lb delta between the cars. Running aftermarket 18" wheels and tires will bring that down closer to a 200 lb delta, you could probably drop another 100 lbs with aftermarket race seats, this really comes down to your bench for racing and your rules.
Last edited by Poor-sha; 09-06-2018 at 11:03 AM.
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Palantirion (09-06-2018)
#49
Back to the topic of GT2RS vs ZR1. I spoke to Mike and didn't get quite as precise a weight as I'd hoped but he said the GT2RS was 3520 lbs with a full tank and him in it so about 3190 without fuel. When we spoke he said the car had about 3/4 tank and it was a 100L tank but his text with the weights said full tank. Anyway, you're looking at around 3350 lbs for a real world GT2RS without driver and with a full fuel load. I didn't ask him if the intercooler spray tank was full
For comparison, a 3ZR ZR1 manual is 3647, 1ZR subtract 35 lbs, so you're looking at a 250-300 lb delta between the cars. Running aftermarket 18" wheels and tires will bring that down closer to a 200 lb delta, you could probably drop another 100 lbs with aftermarket race seats, this really comes down to your bench for racing and your rules.
For comparison, a 3ZR ZR1 manual is 3647, 1ZR subtract 35 lbs, so you're looking at a 250-300 lb delta between the cars. Running aftermarket 18" wheels and tires will bring that down closer to a 200 lb delta, you could probably drop another 100 lbs with aftermarket race seats, this really comes down to your bench for racing and your rules.
All good!
#50
Since the launch of the GT2RS in June 17, some of this has been discussed at length at least 6 months ago on the other side of the pond.
GT2RS gas consumption is one side of the coin. The other is that GT2RS comes stock with a "weight saving race tank" @ approx. 15 gallons..with a regular/bigger 17 gal available as an option. Stock smaller tank = quicker to empty..
The 1.2 gallon I/C water sprayer tank is actually becoming an overheating/nannies issue as well due to its rapid rate of consumption..
Finally, remember the 700 DIN is calculated on 77F IATs versus the 755 (104F) SAE... so basically once that tank depletes it may be "game over" unless of course you install the ring record dry ice kit..
GT2RS gas consumption is one side of the coin. The other is that GT2RS comes stock with a "weight saving race tank" @ approx. 15 gallons..with a regular/bigger 17 gal available as an option. Stock smaller tank = quicker to empty..
The 1.2 gallon I/C water sprayer tank is actually becoming an overheating/nannies issue as well due to its rapid rate of consumption..
Finally, remember the 700 DIN is calculated on 77F IATs versus the 755 (104F) SAE... so basically once that tank depletes it may be "game over" unless of course you install the ring record dry ice kit..
#51
Le Mans Master
Back to the topic of GT2RS vs ZR1. I spoke to Mike and didn't get quite as precise a weight as I'd hoped but he said the GT2RS was 3520 lbs with a full tank and him in it so about 3190 without fuel. When we spoke he said the car had about 3/4 tank and it was a 100L tank but his text with the weights said full tank. Anyway, you're looking at around 3350 lbs for a real world GT2RS without driver and with a full fuel load. I didn't ask him if the intercooler spray tank was full
For comparison, a 3ZR ZR1 manual is 3647, 1ZR subtract 35 lbs, so you're looking at a 250-300 lb delta between the cars. Running aftermarket 18" wheels and tires will bring that down closer to a 200 lb delta, you could probably drop another 100 lbs with aftermarket race seats, this really comes down to your bench for racing and your rules.
For comparison, a 3ZR ZR1 manual is 3647, 1ZR subtract 35 lbs, so you're looking at a 250-300 lb delta between the cars. Running aftermarket 18" wheels and tires will bring that down closer to a 200 lb delta, you could probably drop another 100 lbs with aftermarket race seats, this really comes down to your bench for racing and your rules.
Race seats, with all the hardware are like 25lbs or so? Are factory seats really 75lbs each? Jesus. Also, now you have a true race seat with a fixed back (not sure what the GT2 has).
Isn't the GT2RS pretty stripped out though? No infotainment, no AC, etc with its $30k super weight loss track package? I'm not sure if the 3350 you're quoting includes that package or not. I'm guessing it doesn't?
#52
Originally Posted by village idiot
What wheels and tires are you running to drop 50-100lbs? Keep in mind, the Porsche is factory 20/21 inch wheels.
Race seats, with all the hardware are like 25lbs or so? Are factory seats really 75lbs each? Jesus. Also, now you have a true race seat with a fixed back (not sure what the GT2 has).
Isn't the GT2RS pretty stripped out though? No infotainment, no AC, etc with its $30k super weight loss track package? I'm not sure if the 3350 you're quoting includes that package or not. I'm guessing it doesn't?
Race seats, with all the hardware are like 25lbs or so? Are factory seats really 75lbs each? Jesus. Also, now you have a true race seat with a fixed back (not sure what the GT2 has).
Isn't the GT2RS pretty stripped out though? No infotainment, no AC, etc with its $30k super weight loss track package? I'm not sure if the 3350 you're quoting includes that package or not. I'm guessing it doesn't?
#53
Drifting
The GT2RS has a 60L standard and 90L optional (23.7 Gallon tank). Most everyone orders the GT cars with the optional 90L tank, just so that they don't have to refuel during most track days.
Real world, to real world... I believe we're going to see a 300lb weight difference between the two cars. Obviously slicks and race seats start to change the equation.
Best Regards
Dave
Real world, to real world... I believe we're going to see a 300lb weight difference between the two cars. Obviously slicks and race seats start to change the equation.
Best Regards
Dave
#54
Le Mans Master
The GT2RS has a 60L standard and 90L optional (23.7 Gallon tank). Most everyone orders the GT cars with the optional 90L tank, just so that they don't have to refuel during most track days.
Real world, to real world... I believe we're going to see a 300lb weight difference between the two cars. Obviously slicks and race seats start to change the equation.
Best Regards
Dave
Real world, to real world... I believe we're going to see a 300lb weight difference between the two cars. Obviously slicks and race seats start to change the equation.
Best Regards
Dave
#55
Safety Car
No slicks still on RWS as far as I know. Voids warranty. No sure anyone has come up with a solution for 18 in wheels either. It's not plug and play that's for sure.
That being said, at some point you reach the threshold of no longer stock.
That being said, at some point you reach the threshold of no longer stock.
Last edited by heavychevy; 09-06-2018 at 02:20 PM.
#56
Burning Brakes
There is plenty of logic in making that assumption with a large volume international car manufacturer with billions of dollars going into R&D and testing vs a small scale manufacturer who may simply choose a 3rd party without input on it's design structure and materials. And especially one that has the largest scale racing market in the world putting these parts to the test pretty much non stop. Test mules in the harshest of conditions around the globe, vehicles created specifically for R&D etc. If you assume otherwise, that is what's illogical.
My ZR1 went through 16.7 gallons in 32 minutes at Summit Point. It's an 18.5 gallon tank but I wouldn't be comfortable pushing past 30 minutes given that the fuel gauge is entirely unreliable on track. It was 11 gallons in 20 minutes at VIR which also works out to about 16.5 in 30 minutes.
What we are seeing here is simply that HP = fuel and air. And more = more.
Last edited by Palantirion; 09-06-2018 at 03:25 PM.
#57
My weight pitch remains unchanged.
At options parity (no weissach and stripping) on GT2RS side and (1ZR package) on ZR1 side: less than 100 pounds.
At no options parity (weissach & Stripping) on GT2RS side and (3ZR package) on ZR1 side: 200 pounds.
At options parity (no weissach and stripping) on GT2RS side and (1ZR package) on ZR1 side: less than 100 pounds.
At no options parity (weissach & Stripping) on GT2RS side and (3ZR package) on ZR1 side: 200 pounds.
#58
Safety Car
- Volume sales give a cash flow that can lead to quality improvements via testing. But we also know that at various periods of time the "big three", while being far more fiscally solvent, had poorer quality than smaller foreign companies. The reverse has also been true. Point is: Size does not equal quality and it is foolish to assume such. Quality is the end result of an incredibly complex interaction of variables.
#59
So the record was set with a modified car? Or Porsche sells the dry ice kit and thus it is OEM and thus the car is "not modified"?
#60
Le Mans Master
- They started with Ford short blocks. That is it. They machined those to their specs and everything else was made bespoke - heads, intakes, etc.. Except maybe some peripheral components (injectors and such) that Ford doesn't make either. The engines are hand built by one guy, like the higher-end Porches and the ZR1.
Intake, cam, exhaust, oiling, is all designed and manufactured by Saleen.