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Go to your local track day, especially if you are in the southeast. He's a regular driving anyone's car and giving tips. If you are smart, you will listen. And you will get faster.
Poor-sha, please don't get any faster. You've already set the bar way too high!
I've met Randy, I've been at the track with Randy, I've even had the chance to follow him on track. He's a heck of a guy and I am not saying I am in any way near his caliber of driver. My point was that there is a lot of complaining about using the track oriented traction control in the C7 which makes no sense. PTM is not your normal keep the old guy from looping the car leaving the stop light traction control, it is tuned for track use as a performance aid. Sure, it's not as good as the system in a GTLM car but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. I don't see Randy pulling the ABS fuse so he can see what the brakes are like without ABS.
I liked the episode. I think the ME car coming so soon hurt the ZR this time as well. Because they can point to what they considered GM already figured out that they can't go any faster with the front engine cars. Has anybody who's driven a ZO6 knows it already has too much power for the street so there goes any chance of having fun with it on the road (within reason). Its putting the power down on regular roads where we (C7s with blowers) get beat up. It scares people. Even pros (if they owned one and were used to it I think that would be a different story).
I have no issue with the way the top three landed and unfortunately I've never driven a Honda Civic type-r nor do I think I ever will nor would I ever want to I am not a front-wheel drive fan.
can't wait to get in a Huracan performante and experience what I watched on TV numerous times as well on YouTube a friend of my buddy and someone who I know is an acquaintance just picked up one and it looks insane..
He had it fully wrapped on purchase.
guy also has a Bentley continental gt supersports. Another insane car. It's as fast as my Z06 but is luxurious beyond imagination (and cost him almost 330k).
I've met Randy, I've been at the track with Randy, I've even had the chance to follow him on track. He's a heck of a guy and I am not saying I am in any way near his caliber of driver. My point was that there is a lot of complaining about using the track oriented traction control in the C7 which makes no sense. PTM is not your normal keep the old guy from looping the car leaving the stop light traction control, it is tuned for track use as a performance aid. Sure, it's not as good as the system in a GTLM car but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. I don't see Randy pulling the ABS fuse so he can see what the brakes are like without ABS.
All the complaining is on this forum from bench racers to amateurs telling a guy who earned a spot as a Porsche factory driver from doing autocross how to drive a car fast. And who has decades of experience racing and winning in professional series. But because your preferred make performed poorly in a comparison you want to give him advice on how to drive the car? In spite of all the evidence that the car has heat issues? In spite of the fact that on a short tight circuit your ZR1 is similarly barely faster than your Z06? In spite of the 11 mph differences in speed from your car to a factory one in cooler conditions? In spite of Andy Pilgrim being 3 seconds slower in the same car from one test to the next. In spite of the fact that he set GM's lap record at Road Atlanta with no PTM? You don't think GM had someone else with a faster lap there that they neglected to post do you? But you would rather equate turning off TC to pulling an ABS fuse? lol. Laughable at best. ABS is controlling four wheels at once, and you can actually not use it. If you mess it up though, you will flat spot and ruin tires by going to just 101% of the traction the tires have to give. With stability controls there is only one plane to control (lateral g) and driving on and slightly over that limit is required to go fast.
Randy is telling you that the car doesn't handle well on it's own out of the box. PTM is a crutch, but because you buy into whatever koolaid GM sells you, you think somehow you can tell him what is best while driving many many seconds slower than he would/does. Sorry that doesn't fly. Some respect and perspective is in order here. You won't understand it because you haven't reached the limit of your car yet.
But next time you see him at the track be sure to give him some tips on how to drive faster..... I'm sure he'll get a kick out of that. And while you're at it, tell Andy Pilgrim how not to lose 3 seconds from driving in hotter conditions. Maybe PTM would have helped him too.......
Last edited by heavychevy; 09-22-2018 at 05:48 AM.
Andy Pilgrim used 'Race' Mode in the Grand Sport at Road America! ;)
Originally Posted by heavychevy
All the complaining is on this forum from bench racers to amateurs telling a guy who earned a spot as a Porsche factory driver from doing autocross how to drive a car fast. And who has decades of experience racing and winning in professional series. But because your preferred make performed poorly in a comparison you want to give him advice on how to drive the car? In spite of all the evidence that the car has heat issues? In spite of the fact that on a short tight circuit your ZR1 is similarly barely faster than your Z06? In spite of the 11 mph differences in speed from your car to a factory one in cooler conditions? In spite of Andy Pilgrim being 3 seconds slower in the same car from one test to the next. In spite of the fact that he set GM's lap record at Road Atlanta with no PTM? You don't think GM had someone else with a faster lap there that they neglected to post do you? But you would rather equate turning off TC to pulling an ABS fuse? lol. Laughable at best. ABS is controlling four wheels at once, and you can actually not use it. If you mess it up though, you will flat spot and ruin tires by going to just 101% of the traction the tires have to give. With stability controls there is only one plane to control (lateral g) and driving on and slightly over that limit is required to go fast.
Randy is telling you that the car doesn't handle well on it's own out of the box. PTM is a crutch, but because you buy into whatever koolaid GM sells you, you think somehow you can tell him what is best while driving many many seconds slower than he would/does. Sorry that doesn't fly. Some respect and perspective is in order here. You won't understand it because you haven't reached the limit of your car yet.
But next time you see him at the track be sure to give him some tips on how to drive faster..... I'm sure he'll get a kick out of that. And while you're at it, tell Andy Pilgrim how not to lose 3 seconds from driving in hotter conditions. Maybe PTM would have helped him too.......
Please understand how much power is gained back in the cold in a FI late model Corvette configuration. My 750 HP C5 has showed me. I'm guessing it's different with a turbo Porsche being it's smaller engine rear architecture.
Youse (Porschephile) should study up and understand that a big power Corvette's throttle increments are too out of range for playing.
Please do study up and demonstrate somehow though!
Randy is telling you that the car doesn't handle well on it's own out of the box. PTM is a crutch, ...
The same might be said for active shocks. So what? The car comes out of the box with PTM, as do many cars these days. Why does it matter what the car does when some of its standard features are disabled?
All the complaining is on this forum from bench racers to amateurs telling a guy who earned a spot as a Porsche factory driver from doing autocross how to drive a car fast. And who has decades of experience racing and winning in professional series. But because your preferred make performed poorly in a comparison you want to give him advice on how to drive the car? In spite of all the evidence that the car has heat issues? In spite of the fact that on a short tight circuit your ZR1 is similarly barely faster than your Z06? In spite of the 11 mph differences in speed from your car to a factory one in cooler conditions? In spite of Andy Pilgrim being 3 seconds slower in the same car from one test to the next. In spite of the fact that he set GM's lap record at Road Atlanta with no PTM? You don't think GM had someone else with a faster lap there that they neglected to post do you? But you would rather equate turning off TC to pulling an ABS fuse? lol. Laughable at best. ABS is controlling four wheels at once, and you can actually not use it. If you mess it up though, you will flat spot and ruin tires by going to just 101% of the traction the tires have to give. With stability controls there is only one plane to control (lateral g) and driving on and slightly over that limit is required to go fast.
Randy is telling you that the car doesn't handle well on it's own out of the box. PTM is a crutch, but because you buy into whatever koolaid GM sells you, you think somehow you can tell him what is best while driving many many seconds slower than he would/does. Sorry that doesn't fly. Some respect and perspective is in order here. You won't understand it because you haven't reached the limit of your car yet.
But next time you see him at the track be sure to give him some tips on how to drive faster..... I'm sure he'll get a kick out of that. And while you're at it, tell Andy Pilgrim how not to lose 3 seconds from driving in hotter conditions. Maybe PTM would have helped him too.......
I really don't understand why you are attacking me. As I said, I'm not Randy but I've got some time in this car and I think 1:57's and 1:14's at VIR and Summit Point show that I have some idea what I'm doing behind the wheel of the car. My point was and continues to be that by turning off PTM you are removing a performance advantage engineered in to the car. I really don't care how the car fared in the magazine reviews, I'm just trying to argue for the merits of the PTM system rather than making claims that it somehow detracts from the car.
P.S. I do agree that the ZR1 (and Z06) are losing power with higher ambient temps. I'll have a better idea of how bad it is over the next couple months as I'll be at VIR and WGI in October and back at VIR in November. The first time I ever broke 2 min at VIR n the Z06 was on a 33F morning.
All the complaining is on this forum from bench racers to amateurs telling a guy who earned a spot as a Porsche factory driver from doing autocross how to drive a car fast. And who has decades of experience racing and winning in professional series. But because your preferred make performed poorly in a comparison you want to give him advice on how to drive the car? In spite of all the evidence that the car has heat issues? In spite of the fact that on a short tight circuit your ZR1 is similarly barely faster than your Z06? In spite of the 11 mph differences in speed from your car to a factory one in cooler conditions? In spite of Andy Pilgrim being 3 seconds slower in the same car from one test to the next. In spite of the fact that he set GM's lap record at Road Atlanta with no PTM? You don't think GM had someone else with a faster lap there that they neglected to post do you? But you would rather equate turning off TC to pulling an ABS fuse? lol. Laughable at best. ABS is controlling four wheels at once, and you can actually not use it. If you mess it up though, you will flat spot and ruin tires by going to just 101% of the traction the tires have to give. With stability controls there is only one plane to control (lateral g) and driving on and slightly over that limit is required to go fast.
Randy is telling you that the car doesn't handle well on it's own out of the box. PTM is a crutch, but because you buy into whatever koolaid GM sells you, you think somehow you can tell him what is best while driving many many seconds slower than he would/does. Sorry that doesn't fly. Some respect and perspective is in order here. You won't understand it because you haven't reached the limit of your car yet.
But next time you see him at the track be sure to give him some tips on how to drive faster..... I'm sure he'll get a kick out of that. And while you're at it, tell Andy Pilgrim how not to lose 3 seconds from driving in hotter conditions. Maybe PTM would have helped him too.......
Please understand how much power is gained back in the cold in a FI late model Corvette configuration. My 750 HP C5 has showed me. I'm guessing it's different with a turbo Porsche being it's smaller engine rear architecture.
Youse (Porschephile) should study up and understand that a big power Corvette's throttle increments are too out of range for playing.
Please do study up and demonstrate somehow though!
Yes it's different. My Turbo is 600 hp. Might lose 1-2 tops mph in the heat of summer. Factory cars won't even lose that.
Originally Posted by Poor-sha
I really don't understand why you are attacking me. As I said, I'm not Randy but I've got some time in this car and I think 1:57's and 1:14's at VIR and Summit Point show that I have some idea what I'm doing behind the wheel of the car. My point was and continues to be that by turning off PTM you are removing a performance advantage engineered in to the car. I really don't care how the car fared in the magazine reviews, I'm just trying to argue for the merits of the PTM system rather than making claims that it somehow detracts from the car.
P.S. I do agree that the ZR1 (and Z06) are losing power with higher ambient temps. I'll have a better idea of how bad it is over the next couple months as I'll be at VIR and WGI in October and back at VIR in November. The first time I ever broke 2 min at VIR n the Z06 was on a 33F morning.
I'm well aware of your lap times. I'm subscribed to your YouTube channel. I'm trying to help you understand that 1) not all drivers have the same preference. 2) PTM isn't going to make up multiple seconds for anyone other than a noob 3) you continue to ignore the heat issues regarding the lap time and 4) even as an advanced level driver you are not on the same level as Randy.
Your laps on slicks at VIR are still 6 seconds slower than Mero on cup 2's. You are talking about a completely different league of driving. One that neither even you (or I) have the wherewithal to comment on telling a better driver how to improve.
I saw this same nonsense when the C6 ZR1 beat the Vipers. A bunch of Viper fanboys yapping about Randy can't drive. When not one of those clowns could turn a decent lap.
I'm not attacking you, I'm keeping it real. You have talent behind the wheel, but you have only been doing this a few years by your own admission, and not nearly on the level that Randy has. You have no grounds to criticize him because he turned TC off. No basis whatsoever other than it made you a tad bit faster. That has nothing to do with him. Professional level driving is very different and street car programs are designed for DE drivers like you, not him. It might just be faster for you, but you can't unequivocally say it's faster for him as he's the only one not employed by GM setting lap records to give feedback. You are basing your opinion on speed and slip angle settings you haven't experienced. You are out of line at that point.
Professional level driving is very different and street car programs are designed for DE drivers like you, not him. It might just be faster for you, but you can't unequivocally say it's faster for him as he's the only one not employed by GM setting lap records to give feedback. You are basing your opinion on speed and slip angle settings you haven't experienced. You are out of line at that point.
I'd strongly recommend that, before you continue to dig yourself into a deeper hole with this utter ignorance (remember: ignorance means not knowing something, stupidity means protecting that ignorance by refusing to learn), that you get some direct, hands-on experience with PTM. A lot of it. Not a couple of laps, but several days' worth. It does things NO driver can do. Including Randy. He WILL be faster with it on than off. It's already been proven with other race drivers (see: Milner at Road Atlanta with the C6ZR1).
Stop arguing a point that you don't have any (literally: any) data on. You claim to be a "data" man. Good. Go gather some for yourself and then come back and debate this topic with Sean.
All the complaining is on this forum from bench racers to amateurs telling a guy who earned a spot as a Porsche factory driver from doing autocross how to drive a car fast. Some respect and perspective is in order here. You won't understand it because you haven't reached the limit of your car yet.
What is your experience driving these cars on track? This discussion would be much more interesting if I knew you weren't engaging in hero worship and just repeating things you think Randy Pobst believes.
Cars run better in cooler weather. I think that's just physics. My NA GS is faster in cooler weather. I'm ~5 mph faster on the back straight at VIR in November compared to August.
Originally Posted by heavychevy
In spite of the fact that he set GM's lap record at Road Atlanta with no PTM?
Randy is telling you that the car doesn't handle well on it's own out of the box.
How do you reconcile these two statements? You're arguing that PTM is a crutch and that the car doesn't handle well without PTM. Yet, a lap record was set without PTM. Is Randy wrong that the car doesn't handle well out of the box?
My frustration is the inconsistency in the reviews. This happened last year when the BDC included the C7 Grand Sport. Randy similarly complained about getting power down and snap oversteer. This was different than all the other reviews of the GS and definitely different from my own experience. Drivers on this forum know that twitchy corner exit/snap oversteer is a problem on cars where the rear caster is out of spec. Maybe the car Randy was driving was not setup correctly?
Originally Posted by heavychevy
PTM is a crutch, but because you buy into whatever koolaid GM sells you
Have you driven with/without PTM? Far from being "koolaid", it's a well-engineered system that's been in production since 2010. Read here for technical details. PTM is a "crutch" in the same way that the DCT is a crutch. Technology can make a car faster. Use it if you want. Every modern car has driver aids. It's just a matter of degrees. You've said you're not a pro driver, so I'm guessing your lap times could benefit from using PTM.
I've met Randy, I've been at the track with Randy, I've even had the chance to follow him on track. He's a heck of a guy and I am not saying I am in any way near his caliber of driver. My point was that there is a lot of complaining about using the track oriented traction control in the C7 which makes no sense. PTM is not your normal keep the old guy from looping the car leaving the stop light traction control, it is tuned for track use as a performance aid. Sure, it's not as good as the system in a GTLM car but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. I don't see Randy pulling the ABS fuse so he can see what the brakes are like without ABS.
Funny story: a few years ago I was part owner in a Chump series car. I came into the pit after my two hour stint and a fellow walks up to the car while I was loosening the harness and said, "Hey, I am your relief driver." It was Randy. It seems his car had somewhat expired during the race. Of course I now tell everyone he is my relief driver. You are correct when you say he is a nice fellow. I have had the pleasure to talk with him on many occasions. He is always attentive and as affable as they come.
Funny story: a few years ago I was part owner in a Chump series car. I came into the pit after my two hour stint and a fellow walks up to the car while I was loosening the harness and said, "Hey, I am your relief driver." It was Randy. It seems his car had somewhat expired during the race. Of course I now tell everyone he is my relief driver. You are correct when you say he is a nice fellow. I have had the pleasure to talk with him on many occasions. He is always attentive and as affable as they come.
"My definition of of a great handling car is that it practically drives itself." Randy Pobst. Anybody who has ever driven or owned a Porsche 911 knows that over the years Porsche has had to implement numerous driver aids. You cannot defeat all of the aids because the 911 is inherently a handful to drive any where near the limit. With the engine located behind the rear axle it presents numerous challenges. Porsche makes a good car but it is intellectually dishonest to attack one car for its driver's aids while not acknowledging that Porsche, and in particular one that has 700 hp, is rear wheel driven, would be a lot slower around a track were it not for driver aids. The 911 is a poor design but Porsche has done a masterful job of masking all of its flaws by use of clever driver aids.
"My definition of of a great handling car is that it practically drives itself." Randy Pobst. Anybody who has ever driven or owned a Porsche 911 knows that over the years Porsche has had to implement numerous driver aids. You cannot defeat all of the aids because the 911 is inherently a handful to drive any where near the limit. With the engine located behind the rear axle it presents numerous challenges. Porsche makes a good car but it is intellectually dishonest to attack one car for its driver's aids while not acknowledging that Porsche, and in particular one that has 700 hp, is rear wheel driven, would be a lot slower around a track were it not for driver aids. The 911 is a poor design but Porsche has done a masterful job of masking all of its flaws by use of clever driver aids.
PDK GT2 RS Only
PTV and PTV-plus
https://www.porsche.com/australia/models/911/911-gt2-rs/911-gt2-rs/drive-chassis/porsche-torque-vectoring-plus-ptv-plus/
09-21-2018, 06:48 PM
OMG that is absolutely what we should all do ;>
You are correct when you say he is a nice fellow. I have had the pleasure to talk with him on many occasions. He is always attentive and as affable as they come.
