Motor Trend destroys the 2019 ZR1
10-19-2018, 12:17 PM
#201
Le Mans Master
Good to hear, my C6 ZR1 is pretty busy on the highway, especially on uneven road. It always required full attention. Of course, I don't mind, especially on the track. My wife's sedan is very easy to drive on the highway (at speed limit +14), doesn't wonder around on bad roads.
10-22-2018, 06:05 PM
#202
Team Owner
Dont drive it like a volkswagen bug
Dont be stomping on the gas and bangin gears in a high hp car when the weather's cold... anybody with experience will tell you this.
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ptalar (10-22-2018)
10-22-2018, 06:08 PM
#203
Typical "track" or "autocross" alignments have a touch of toe out. The toe out tends to make the car's turn in a bit sharper - but it has real negative impacts on the street, instantaneous loading on the front tires tend to drive which tire the car wants to follow - which creates "instability".
IMHO - the toe out trick matters if you're racing competitively - but if you're just doing track days for fun - and if you drive the car to and from the track (as opposed to trailering it) try a track day with just a touch of toe in - I highly doubt that you'll see a measurable difference in lap times, and the car will almost assuredly be a much friendlier to drive machine getting to and from the track.
Significant neg camber also impacts directional stability - particularly when driving on truck rutted highways - so if you set the car up with neg camber to make the car handle on the track - you may notice that a touch of toe in is not enough to make the car stable - particularly on really "under maintained" highways.
IMHO - the toe out trick matters if you're racing competitively - but if you're just doing track days for fun - and if you drive the car to and from the track (as opposed to trailering it) try a track day with just a touch of toe in - I highly doubt that you'll see a measurable difference in lap times, and the car will almost assuredly be a much friendlier to drive machine getting to and from the track.
Significant neg camber also impacts directional stability - particularly when driving on truck rutted highways - so if you set the car up with neg camber to make the car handle on the track - you may notice that a touch of toe in is not enough to make the car stable - particularly on really "under maintained" highways.
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thebishman (10-23-2018)
10-23-2018, 05:17 AM
#204
Advanced
10-23-2018, 06:21 AM
#205
Originally Posted by cottonant
Can you elaborate as to why you make this recommendation?
10-23-2018, 06:45 PM
#206
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 13,915
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Come on now, we all know Corvettes are cheap compared to most exotics and under engineered for the HP.
And getting around a track is not a true test of awesomeness, reliability. And yes, Ferraris and other high end cars have some problems, but cheapness is not one of them.
Corvettes are like Glocks in a HK/SIG world. Yes they shoot, but you have to modify the crap out of them to shoot straight.
And getting around a track is not a true test of awesomeness, reliability. And yes, Ferraris and other high end cars have some problems, but cheapness is not one of them.
Corvettes are like Glocks in a HK/SIG world. Yes they shoot, but you have to modify the crap out of them to shoot straight.
You such a funny person!
10-23-2018, 06:52 PM
#207
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 13,915
Received 1,103 Likes
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Well, some folks don't know and won't learn. A while back on this forum I tried to explain what happened when a driver on our race team took a high HP vette out of the shop on a cold 30 degree morning and immediately accelerated too fast down the two lane. Lost traction on the rear, turned sideways, crossed the road and cut the car in half on a tree and killed himself and his shop helper. They were ejected. The driver was very experienced but just had a moment of bad judgement. Some on the thread said it was the speed that killed them. I don't think they know the dangers of performance tires, cold temps and high HP to this day. Oh well......
Last edited by SouthernSon; 10-23-2018 at 06:53 PM.
10-24-2018, 04:54 PM
#208
Advanced
Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonant
Can you elaborate as to why you make this recommendation?
You stated "or get a set of those new Michelin AS3+ tires. I have a set mounted in the garage but haven't put them on the car yet."
Originally Posted by cottonant
Can you elaborate as to why you make this recommendation?
You stated "or get a set of those new Michelin AS3+ tires. I have a set mounted in the garage but haven't put them on the car yet."
10-24-2018, 08:06 PM
#209
Le Mans Master
Cup tires are death traps in the cold. Not being hyperbolic, they're ridiculously dangerous below 45°. A Honda Accord is probably faster through twisties at 45°
Last edited by village idiot; 10-24-2018 at 08:08 PM.
10-24-2018, 11:44 PM
#210
Burning Brakes
I'm just here to say to all the folks swapping Cup 2s for AS3s.
Stop, No, Don't.
Pilot Sport 4S is the PSS replacement, that's what you want.
Stop, No, Don't.
Pilot Sport 4S is the PSS replacement, that's what you want.
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serpent (10-25-2018)
10-25-2018, 02:15 PM
#214
what are z07/zr1 sizes?
I'm currently running 19"/20" forgelines in my viper and have 295/30-19 front and 345/30-20 rear Pilot Sport 4S tires.
Huge improvement over the shitty p-zero grip tires (not pirelli corsa) that the car came with.
I'm currently running 19"/20" forgelines in my viper and have 295/30-19 front and 345/30-20 rear Pilot Sport 4S tires.
Huge improvement over the shitty p-zero grip tires (not pirelli corsa) that the car came with.
10-25-2018, 02:19 PM
#215
335/25-20 Rear
I saw your exact setup on TireRack and it amounts to basically a 3% difference in diameter. Should work fine obviously, but does alter speedo reading, gearing, acceleration, tracking control, electronic suspension, etc. I don't have a ton of knowledge on this topic, just what Ive seen online. Anyone ran this tire size setup on a C7 and can report findings?
Last edited by HTXSkydiver; 10-25-2018 at 02:30 PM.
10-25-2018, 02:48 PM
#216
This post is retarded.... any car that can do a 1:26 at Road Atlanta and 1:52 at VIR in street legal trim is insane. It has nearly 800 horse in cooler weather and you're complaining that it's hard to control? Duh?
10-25-2018, 04:07 PM
#217
Le Mans Master
Okay, so there has been a crap ton of debate but no one has explained to me why the hell she (a moderator at that) tried to insult me by saying I drive a miata at the track.
Me: Almost no ZR1 owners have a ZR1 as their only car
Her: NUH UH! Go enjoy your Miata, LOLZ!!!! [and then some incoherent gobblygook]
What the hell does my Miata have to do with daily driving a ZR1?
and that's how we're somehow debating whether or not it's best to learn on a snap oversteer prone 750hp, 3600lb, 130k car or a Miata.
But sure, I'll join:
You guys are interchanging top end HPDE drivers and top end Racers. Huge difference. 99.9% of HPDE only drivers wouldn't be anywhere near the top half of a real race (unless they spent a lot on their car, and even then). It's no surprise fast HPDE miata guys aren't super fast in a 700hp car. They still have a crap ton of learning ahead of them, and driving a 700hp car to the limit is harder than driving a 100hp car to the limit. Take the winner of the MX cup and put him in any car and he'll be competitive. These fastest miata guys you all are talking about at HPDE are still way off the mark of what the Miata is capable of, so it's no surprise they are off the mark for a 700hp car too.
Also, keep in mind that finding a second in a Miata is a hell of a lot harder than it is in a 500hp car, ESPECIALLY for amateurs. Getting on the gas 1 second earlier means putting down 100hp for a second vs 700hp (and whoever was talking about late braking, lol- there's VERY little time to be gained in braking. Late braking is good for passing, but braking 50 ft later- it's not going to yield you much time). Go drive some karts and you'll see how hard it is to find a second vs. ZR1.
It's a lot more fun and educational to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. You're not learning anything if you're not putting the car close to the limit in corners, and as its been discussed, it's obviously a lot harder to come near the limit of a Miata than a ZR1.
You better be one hell of a damn good driver if you're going to talk about how you need a ZR1 to further your skills and are ragging on people doing track days in Miatas, and I'm guessing none of you (myself included) are there. The fastest HPDE drivers and instructors (who never competitively raced) are not fast compared to even mid-pack racers. Racer fast is a totally different level of fast.
It's funny that every single competitive racer has told me to get a slow, light car, and I'm rarely passed in my GS in advanced drive groups once I learn a circuit, but people here are saying the opposite.
I still have no idea why the hell I was "insulted" for driving a miata (it's not like I don't have a C7), especially when it had absolutely no relevance to the conversation.
His review sucked, regardless of the merits of the car. He compared an A8 ZR1 to a PDK GT2RS and didn't note the transmission, weights that are responsible for stuff he's describing and he's baffled about the brake pedal being spongy when it's beyond obvious the brake fluid was the problem, not the hardware or pads. It was like listening to Al Bundy critique a high school football game.
Me: Almost no ZR1 owners have a ZR1 as their only car
Her: NUH UH! Go enjoy your Miata, LOLZ!!!! [and then some incoherent gobblygook]
What the hell does my Miata have to do with daily driving a ZR1?
and that's how we're somehow debating whether or not it's best to learn on a snap oversteer prone 750hp, 3600lb, 130k car or a Miata.
But sure, I'll join:
You guys are interchanging top end HPDE drivers and top end Racers. Huge difference. 99.9% of HPDE only drivers wouldn't be anywhere near the top half of a real race (unless they spent a lot on their car, and even then). It's no surprise fast HPDE miata guys aren't super fast in a 700hp car. They still have a crap ton of learning ahead of them, and driving a 700hp car to the limit is harder than driving a 100hp car to the limit. Take the winner of the MX cup and put him in any car and he'll be competitive. These fastest miata guys you all are talking about at HPDE are still way off the mark of what the Miata is capable of, so it's no surprise they are off the mark for a 700hp car too.
Also, keep in mind that finding a second in a Miata is a hell of a lot harder than it is in a 500hp car, ESPECIALLY for amateurs. Getting on the gas 1 second earlier means putting down 100hp for a second vs 700hp (and whoever was talking about late braking, lol- there's VERY little time to be gained in braking. Late braking is good for passing, but braking 50 ft later- it's not going to yield you much time). Go drive some karts and you'll see how hard it is to find a second vs. ZR1.
It's a lot more fun and educational to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. You're not learning anything if you're not putting the car close to the limit in corners, and as its been discussed, it's obviously a lot harder to come near the limit of a Miata than a ZR1.
You better be one hell of a damn good driver if you're going to talk about how you need a ZR1 to further your skills and are ragging on people doing track days in Miatas, and I'm guessing none of you (myself included) are there. The fastest HPDE drivers and instructors (who never competitively raced) are not fast compared to even mid-pack racers. Racer fast is a totally different level of fast.
It's funny that every single competitive racer has told me to get a slow, light car, and I'm rarely passed in my GS in advanced drive groups once I learn a circuit, but people here are saying the opposite.
I still have no idea why the hell I was "insulted" for driving a miata (it's not like I don't have a C7), especially when it had absolutely no relevance to the conversation.
His review sucked, regardless of the merits of the car. He compared an A8 ZR1 to a PDK GT2RS and didn't note the transmission, weights that are responsible for stuff he's describing and he's baffled about the brake pedal being spongy when it's beyond obvious the brake fluid was the problem, not the hardware or pads. It was like listening to Al Bundy critique a high school football game.
10-25-2018, 04:17 PM
#218
I've heard Randy, in person and on video, say on many occasions that the best way to learn the skills that make you fast is to begin with a momentum car. People seem to be missing that part. And it's pretty damn tasteless for a moderator, of all people, to throw jabs at you for owning a Miata. It speaks volumes about their ignorance on the subject.
You want to learn? Get a C5/6/7 and get out there with the nannies turned off and have fun.
10-25-2018, 06:08 PM
#219
As someone who has also sat in the right hand seat of quite a number of cars at more than a couple of tracks - I do have one comment ...
I don't care how good the Instructor is - if a student doesn't want to listen and learn, the best instructor in the world is ballast.
Personally - I recommend starting out in a car that isn't super high powered, and learning the basics of track driving with street tires and without the kind of power that blurs scenery very quickly. After you've figured out the basics - move up to R-Compound rubber, and learn about controlling a car in the corners. Once you get comfortable there - then move up to something with some power... Hopefully - you'll understand enough about car control at that point that the big numbers down the straights are not only manageable - but add to your learning....
Many many years ago - when I first went out on the track - there were not a lot of high power cars out there. The only way to go fast was to get through the corners quickly, and by the time people learned how to do that - the rest of the car control skills were pretty much ready for the bigger speeds. Today - that is NOT the case - it's common to see people in the beginner groups go through the corners at 6 tenths - then matt the loud pedal, and be carrying some real speed as they get into the next braking zone. That is not the best situation for an inexperienced student.....
And just for the record - a number of years ago - I went for a check out ride with a signed off solo student. He was in a Porsche with slicks and with a turbo motor... On the first lap out (ambient temp around 45 - 50 F), he seemed to be doing just fine - was taking it quite easy - we were probably doing around 45 - 50 MPH when he gave the car a little throttle - I don't think he got the response he wanted from the motor, and gave it a little more throttle... (I think most of you Instruct already know how this story ends...) The turbo woke up, the car went sideways - the driver fed in the correction, the car responded, went sideways the other way - and we went into the wall - hitting at about 30 MPH. Why - YEP - Cold tires !!! At 50 degrees slicks have far less grip than all season rubber. It's not like the engine was working hard - I doubt that when the incident stated the tach read more than 2,700 RPM.. But in less than 3 sec - the car went from nice to badly damaged. Fortunately the car had a decent cage, and we both emerged uninjured - but the moral is that here is an experienced driver with probably 1,000+ track miles under his belt, and he got caught off guard by the lack of grip...
I don't care how good the Instructor is - if a student doesn't want to listen and learn, the best instructor in the world is ballast.
Personally - I recommend starting out in a car that isn't super high powered, and learning the basics of track driving with street tires and without the kind of power that blurs scenery very quickly. After you've figured out the basics - move up to R-Compound rubber, and learn about controlling a car in the corners. Once you get comfortable there - then move up to something with some power... Hopefully - you'll understand enough about car control at that point that the big numbers down the straights are not only manageable - but add to your learning....
Many many years ago - when I first went out on the track - there were not a lot of high power cars out there. The only way to go fast was to get through the corners quickly, and by the time people learned how to do that - the rest of the car control skills were pretty much ready for the bigger speeds. Today - that is NOT the case - it's common to see people in the beginner groups go through the corners at 6 tenths - then matt the loud pedal, and be carrying some real speed as they get into the next braking zone. That is not the best situation for an inexperienced student.....
And just for the record - a number of years ago - I went for a check out ride with a signed off solo student. He was in a Porsche with slicks and with a turbo motor... On the first lap out (ambient temp around 45 - 50 F), he seemed to be doing just fine - was taking it quite easy - we were probably doing around 45 - 50 MPH when he gave the car a little throttle - I don't think he got the response he wanted from the motor, and gave it a little more throttle... (I think most of you Instruct already know how this story ends...) The turbo woke up, the car went sideways - the driver fed in the correction, the car responded, went sideways the other way - and we went into the wall - hitting at about 30 MPH. Why - YEP - Cold tires !!! At 50 degrees slicks have far less grip than all season rubber. It's not like the engine was working hard - I doubt that when the incident stated the tach read more than 2,700 RPM.. But in less than 3 sec - the car went from nice to badly damaged. Fortunately the car had a decent cage, and we both emerged uninjured - but the moral is that here is an experienced driver with probably 1,000+ track miles under his belt, and he got caught off guard by the lack of grip...
10-25-2018, 06:25 PM
#220
Advanced
Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonant
Can you elaborate as to why you make this recommendation?
You stated "or get a set of those new Michelin AS3+ tires. I have a set mounted in the garage but haven't put them on the car yet."
theyll have more grip in the cold. As a general rule of thumb, the closer you get to the race tire, the sticky or it will get, but outside of it operating range it will have less and less traction.
Cup tires are death traps in the cold. Not being hyperbolic, they're ridiculously dangerous below 45°. A Honda Accord is probably faster through twisties at 45°
Originally Posted by cottonant
Can you elaborate as to why you make this recommendation?
You stated "or get a set of those new Michelin AS3+ tires. I have a set mounted in the garage but haven't put them on the car yet."
theyll have more grip in the cold. As a general rule of thumb, the closer you get to the race tire, the sticky or it will get, but outside of it operating range it will have less and less traction.
Cup tires are death traps in the cold. Not being hyperbolic, they're ridiculously dangerous below 45°. A Honda Accord is probably faster through twisties at 45°