HTXSkydiver

I saw where someone very convincingly posted about GM intentionally sending under prepared cars (worn tires, etc.) to these tests so the ZR1 doesn't perform to its fullest potential. The reasoning was that GM was not interested in the mag reviews since the ZR1 will be a single year model and will clearly be WAY more capable than the C8 at launch. You can read and soak up all the mag reviews you want but I had my ZR1 on COTA this past weekend and it sure was a pleasure passing Porsche GT3s one after another!

Fact of the matter is GM does not need mag reviews to sell each and every ZR1 they can build nor does it want to overshadow the upcoming release of the ME C8. Each ZR1 is already sold and there are still people in line trying to get allocations. What a flop, poorly made, and under engineered car LMAO. I guess haters gunna hate, and boy you sure are one...

krackenvette

Its not about hating the Vette. Its never been a car of high caliber, just big numbers under the hood. Magneride shocks are nice, the C4 ZR1 was an attempt (but everything behind the engine was a flop)..examples for sure.
Just think if GM told their engineers to build whatever the hell they want, it would be magical I am sure. It would be a Mclaren F1 type car, awesome and unbeatable in its day. But they wont. They build image cars that are capable, but easily driven by the masses at 70 mph and to car shows..
Flame on if that makes your feel better..

heavychevy

There is a difference between not putting power down while cornering on a track and not knowing that a 700 plus hp and torque car won't put the power down on cold street tires while mashing the throttle in second gear from low speeds.

You would know that but you continue to talk on things you have no clue about.

UnhandledException

UnhandledException

Purple92

Fundamentally - it all comes down to Physics. If the torque applied to the rear wheels is more than the available grip - the wheels will spin. Available grip is basically the tires coefficient of friction, and the amount of weight on the rear wheels. That applies to Corvettes, Mustangs and any other 2 WD Car. If you have stickier tires, they have a higher coefficient of friction, and will accept more torque before they break loose. Generally speaking the highest performing tires work best when warm or even hot - and don't provide much grip when cold. A few years back - GM had to send out an advisory to the Camaro owners with the ultra high performance tires to not drive when temps were below freezing because the tires offered so little grip. The fact that they had to send the notice out speaks to the driving skill of some of the people who bought those cars.

Yes - there are some ways to overcome the traction issue - you can build in software (via a Traction Control system) that will cut power when wheelspin is detected, you can drive all four wheels, you can add anti-squat to the rear suspension, but each one of these "fixes" has consequences. The traction control intervening too quickly robs drivers who know what they're doing of the ability to operate at higher slip angles (hence the number of available Traction Control settings). All wheel drive is a wonderful idea - but it adds cost, weight and more complexity. Anti-squat - improves rear grip - but depending on how it's done - can cause a loss of front grip. Spoilers are great - but they generally require three digit speeds before they really provide much impact. I don't care how much free reign you give the engineers - the best they're gonna do is bend the rules - they can't break the laws of physics.


I fail to see why anyone would be surprised about a Supercharged 750 HP car that weight about 3,500 Lb. breaking it's tires loose at street speeds. Those power levels typically can't be fully utilized until you're into the three digit MPH range and in 4th gear on a Corvette. Yes, some cars can put down full power at lower speeds and in lower gears - but they typically aren't making as much low end / midrange torque - or they have a lot more weight on the back tires ... . Ever watch the telemetry on a NASCAR "Cup" car as they exit the pits on cold tires ??? Think any of the drivers are wide open in 1st gear once they clear the last timing zone in pit lane ??? The fact is that many of the Cup Drivers have wheelspin issues when coming off a restart - as they have more power available than the tire has the ability to grip (that friction thing again).

village idiot

Lol, what?

GM definitely cares. This is their flagship car that is still to this day fighting the stigma that it (and American cars as a whole) don't handle well, don't handle as well as European cars it. Why on Earth would GM not care about bad press




With that said, magazine editors are rarely good drivers. I always read about how neutral cars are and blah blah blah. Virtually every car has a ton of under steer (there are exceptions, of course). They literally can't tell the difference between "I can floor it in a turn and the back end doesn't come around due to understeer" and "no understeer." I run 315s on my GS with more aero in the front (stage 3) than a stock GS and I still have hints of understeer. They can rarely tell when the nannies are reeling them in. I personally just think they just echo each other and/or have serious placebo/confirmation bias. If they read/know/think/are told it does X, they'll drive it and think it does X. It really takes an incredible driver to discern what a car is doing and why. It's very easy for us amateurs to "misunderstand" why a car does stuff. They fall in love with "easy to drive" and "fun to drive" cant discern that from "capable" or even "more capable than the driver here."

There was an editor that did a race with actual pros here and the editor was 20 seconds slower per lap on average. 20 damn seconds in a 240hp FRS. Sorry, you're not discerning crap about how a car feels when you're that slow. I feel like I screw up more than I fix when I adjust suspension and I'm probably 3 seconds off pro pace on average. I doubt the ZR1 writers/editors are 20 seconds off pace, but I am willing to bet the majority aren't anywhere near fast enough, skilled enough, experienced enough and technically knowlegable enough to make an accurate assessment.

I'm not saying it's accurate or not, but I wouldn't trust a magazine editor either way. People put way too much stock in what they think.

rcgldr

He wasn't the normal pace car driver. The pace cars are normally driven by Oriol Servia and Sarah Fisher, both former IndyCar drivers, who are familiar with the tracks. I've read that the long skid marks indicated that the assists were turned off, and the car spun out in a turn that goes over a crest. For comparison, F1 used Mercedes SLS AMG (571 hp, 3750 lbs) and currently uses Mercedes GTR (583 hp, 3650 lbs), I don't recall any incidents with the F1 pace cars in recent years. F1 requires that the pace car needs to be able to idle for an entire race (1 to 2 hours) with the AC on if the temperature is hot, and be able to maintain a reasonably fast pace with cold or cool tires when activated. I don't know what the requirements for Indy.

village idiot

Just a nit pick, but AWD and TC don't increase traction. AWD can share help share some work (acceleration) on the exit, but it doesn't increase traction. If anything, the extra weight slows you down. I don't know many cars that are or would be faster with AWD. There is a reason Porsche goes to RWD for their track oriented variants. When you're going hard laterally with sticky tires, your front tires have very little grip anyway. Weight is going to be back on the rear tires. Heck, the front inside tire might have zero contact with the ground. Adding power to the front tires reduces traction available to turning- and you need that since you're in a turn

TC doesn't increase traction- it just saves you when you go beyond it. It actually slows you down, as you alluded to.


It's no surprise that a 3500lb car with such polarized weight distribution (it's at the extreme ends like a barbell and not centralized) is a handful. Add 750hp to it and lots of mechanical grip and yeah, it's going to be nerve wracking.

As far as low range or mid range, that doesn't matter on the track. You should always be in your powerband, or close to it, on the track. No one is coming out of a turn at 3500 rpm in an S2000. With most vehicles on the track, you should never be anything less than about the top 1/3 of your RPM band (so 4000-6000 for a 6k reline, 10k-15k for 15k redline sport bike). No one cares how much power you have "across the band." The amount of power/torque my GS makes under about 3500-4k rpm (I'd have to look at some videos) is completely irrelevant to me at the track. That's why actual track cars would rather have a high peak in a limited powerband than lower peak numbers for a broad powerband.

desmophile

And you fault the car for this? Hmmmm……..In Sport 1, traction control is off if I am not mistaken. And asking the car to defy the laws of physics is maybe a little unreasonable. I doubt any 700+ hp car made could keep cold tires hooked up without traction control. What you did was not unlike flooring a Miata's throttle with snow on the ground. Even a Miata will break its tires loose. Add 600 horsepower and cold tires-same result.
Dealers/owners who let others drive their ZR1 would be well advised to familiarize themselves with the driving modes, and put the car in "Wet" when offering the uninitiated a test drive.
FWIW, the folks at C&D managed to keep sufficiently hooked at VIR that only the GT2RS made a better time. 'nuff said.

village idiot

Sport 1 is extremely limiting. Even Sport 2 is limiting. I'm a second or two faster in Race than Sport 2 and really good drivers are about a second faster with everything disabled than Race.

DebRedZR1

HUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHH? REAL OWNERS vs PAID magazine writers. What have you owned and drove to give all these opinions?

Purple92

You are completely correct WRT to Traction Control - it cuts power to keep very bad things from happening - it doesn't somehow "create" grip.

We can have a long discussion about AWD increasing traction. In a way it does because it allows the front wheels to do some work WRT accelerating the car - and if the front wheels are pointing straight - even with the weight transfer going on in hard low gear acceleration - this can be a significant help. But - is that worth the price - it depends on what you're using the car for, and how you personally value the tradeoffs. (It's doubtful that very many Vette buyers have had the opportunity to feel the difference between 500 HP and 700 HP at 120+ MPH.)

I absolutely agree with you about keeping the car in the upper half (upper third ??) of the tach on the track - but NO ONE drives a car like that on the street. And that is where the Supercharged ZR-1 comes into it's own.

While I have read about the differences in the acceleration times for a Z06 and a ZR-1 - I tend to think that the Z06 is more than enough power for all but a few who will get to use the extra 100+ HP after they top out in 3rd at 100+ MPH. I get that the ZR-1 is the Halo car right now - and that's just fine - but I tend to think that the sweet spot for the non track junkie is the Z06 for a LOT less $$$$.... And just for the record - Can anyone name a new sub $150K Italian car than can keep up with a ZR1 (or even a Z06) ???

FringbirdAloha

village idiot

BTW: Not to get off topic and address the OP ( ), you drove a 750hp FE car with high performance tires (so they suck when they're cold, worse than street tires) in the cold and you're surprised it breaks the tires loose between WOT shifts? I'm also willing to bet a faster shift would help this (the weight moves more forward, from the loaded and settled rear).

Road coarse oriented cars aren't going to have soft, complaint rear suspensions. They're going to have stiff suspensions. It's not mediocre suspension- it's just not designed for drag racing (although, I'm very surprised GM has an algo that softens the rear during WOT shifts when the wheel is turned straight).

village idiot

Street and track are very different beats. I'd prefer a Z06 or Zr1 on the street over a GS. I prefer a CBR1000 over a 600 on the track. But I prefer a GS (or 600RR) on the track. I just like to track my car so I didn't get a Z06. I didn't want the headaches, higher operational cost and I am well aware of my capabilities. I'm not a 650/750hp driver (yet). There's nothing worse than driving over your head.

With regard to AWD- yeah, it definitely lets the front tires share the acceleration work, but it comes at a cost. The front wheels are supposed to be turning you. That takes grip. Accelerating you takes away from that grip.
Accelerating out of a turn is basically the same thing as braking into a turn, just with negative signs, and we all have "negative AWD" going into the turns (our brakes!) Just like braking while turning can induce understeer when you ask too much from the tires, so can powering out of a turn with AWD. If you drive an AWD 911, for example, you'll feel the car wants to straighten out when you get on the gas coming out of a turn. That's great for a rear engine car that generally wants to kill you, I mean bring the back end around. It's not as helpful for a car that already understeers. As it is, our e-diff makes the car track out wider under load.

gitanodelnorte

I have a C-2 with a 684 hp (on the dyno) Dart 509. It has 550 lbs front springs, 1" sway bars front and rear and OEM 7 leaf rear spring. I have Falken 255 ZR 17"rear and 245 ZR "17 front tires. Vette brakes C-5 disc brake upgrade front and rear. Tremec T600 5 spd. Car is lowered a bit. I run it on a track and have no issues other than some understeer. On back country roads I get on it and though the rear tires will break loose a bit I have never lost control. I can't believe a new ZR1 would have issues like this. The new issue of Car and Driver has the ZR1 beating the 2.5 x more expensive McLaren 720 S in the annual shootout issue. Only the Porsche GT2RS beat the ZR1 and it cost nearly 3 times as much. The ZR1 spanked the 4x more expensive Ford GT (which won Lemans last year) I have driven a C-7 ZO6 and it was a fu**in" rocket, handled like a race car and the ZR1 would beat it.This story is balderdash.

SouthernSon

When GM pioneered/ perfected the Hydroforming technique for the C5 chassis it eliminated 14 welds (IIRC) over the C4 chassis. This stiffened the chassis tremendously and brought torsional rigidity to a whole other level. And, as the story goes, we all know how everyone else (mostly, anyways) has followed suit.

jimmyb

Man, there is a LOT of TROLLING going on in this thread....

Oh yeah,
By a show of hands, who here thinks the OP actually "tested" a manual ZR1?
Anyone?

I asked him 4 pages ago how he got to "test" a manual ZR1, since he didn't answer, I am going to assume he's NEVER actually driven one.

DSOMDream

For the people with superiority complexes, why do you keep buying an inferior car and post on a forum dedicated to that automobile? Paul