Motor Trend destroys the 2019 ZR1
10-08-2018, 09:45 PM
#81
Race Director
Put ANY 750HP sports car in reduced "nanny" mode, go out on a cool day, on cold tires, and tromp on the throttle. Front engine, mid-engine, rear engine, AWD....doesn't matter. Again, YOUTUBE has literally HUNDREDS of guys showboating in ALL sorts of exotica, only to crash the cars.
Here you go....Mid engine...check.....AWD....check....wreck ed....check and not close to 755HP
Here you go further...REAR engine...check....AWD...check....lost it....check
Last edited by jimmyb; 10-08-2018 at 09:59 PM.
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10-08-2018, 09:52 PM
#82
I though the AWD track oriented cars adjusted the front / rear torque bias to tune out understeer. Doesn't the NIssan GTR do this? I think the Porsche 918 does this, but in that case the front wheels are driven by electric motors, the rears by the gas engine, so any bias adjustment would be torque cutting.
Last edited by rcgldr; 10-08-2018 at 11:48 PM.
10-09-2018, 05:59 AM
#83
Come on now, we all know Corvettes are cheap compared to most exotics and under engineered for the HP.
And getting around a track is not a true test of awesomeness, reliability. And yes, Ferraris and other high end cars have some problems, but cheapness is not one of them.
Corvettes are like Glocks in a HK/SIG world. Yes they shoot, but you have to modify the crap out of them to shoot straight.
And getting around a track is not a true test of awesomeness, reliability. And yes, Ferraris and other high end cars have some problems, but cheapness is not one of them.
Corvettes are like Glocks in a HK/SIG world. Yes they shoot, but you have to modify the crap out of them to shoot straight.
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10-09-2018, 08:07 AM
#84
Le Mans Master
Somewhat similar, I have a 2001 Hayabusa (like having 900 hp on a Z06), and in street use or drag strip, the bike isn't going to spin out of control as it's not traction limited, just wheelie limited, and if it does lift the front end, it tracks straight. I don't do track days, but if I did, I would prefer a car since a car can slide without incident, while a bike can low side (bad) or high side (really bad). On the bike, the combination of rider position, sitting almost as high as a SUV, and the high power to weight ratio, there's not much sense of acceleration or speed, even though it's much quicker than my 2015 C7 Z06 3LZ M7 (without Z07). With the Z06, there's much more sense of acceleration and speed, even with moderate throttle to avoid the rear tires breaking loose.
That depends on the circumstances. The TC systems used in race cars must be helping, because in the racing events when it is/was allowed, I'm not aware of any teams that chose not to use it. When TC was allowed in IndyCar racing, the drivers could adjust tire slippage factor with buttons on their steering wheels to compensate for tire wear during a run. The issue is that TC systems for street cars have to deal with more variables, although in track mode, the TC should be closer to the TC used by race cars.
I though the AWD track oriented cars adjusted the front / rear torque bias to tune out understeer. Doesn't the NIssan GTR do this? I think the Porsche 918 does this, but in that case the front wheels are driven by electric motors, the rears by the gas engine, so any bias adjustment would be torque cutting.
That depends on the circumstances. The TC systems used in race cars must be helping, because in the racing events when it is/was allowed, I'm not aware of any teams that chose not to use it. When TC was allowed in IndyCar racing, the drivers could adjust tire slippage factor with buttons on their steering wheels to compensate for tire wear during a run. The issue is that TC systems for street cars have to deal with more variables, although in track mode, the TC should be closer to the TC used by race cars.
I though the AWD track oriented cars adjusted the front / rear torque bias to tune out understeer. Doesn't the NIssan GTR do this? I think the Porsche 918 does this, but in that case the front wheels are driven by electric motors, the rears by the gas engine, so any bias adjustment would be torque cutting.
10-09-2018, 10:21 AM
#85
As stated, GM will sell every single ZR1 they can build before C7 production ends in the spring and they do not need mag reviews to do it. Same as Ford doesn't need press to sell the GT. Of course GM would like to see it kill everything they throw at it but thats just not realistic when you have track prepared cars like the GT2RS on unobtainable, bespoke tires.
IMO GM knows they built a spectacular car, the buyers know that too, and mag reviews (good or bad) will not influence that. Their total focus shifted months ago (if not before) to the C8 and how to make it a home run at launch. It will be the new "flagship" just as the stingray was and hopefully will get all the praise and then some as the stingray did (it won TONS of awards, BDC, etc in its first year).
10-09-2018, 11:11 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by HTXSkydiver
Why do you think Ford pulled the GT from basically all mag tests/comparisons this year? They don't care about the mag reviews and know the GT would get SMOKED by the competition. The ZR1 is only the "flagship car" for a year. It was only an exercise to squeeze every last drop of performance out of the C7 platform. Once the ME C8 is unveiled, the C7 will basically be forgotten as far as GM is concerned at least. Case in point, if GM cared so much it wouldn't have provided a ZR1 on worn out Cup 2s to a comparison against one, if not the biggest of, its rivals in the GT2RS. GM knew if was going to get roasted by C&D either way and could not perform as well as the GT2RS on its Cup 2Rs.
As stated, GM will sell every single ZR1 they can build before C7 production ends in the spring and they do not need mag reviews to do it. Same as Ford doesn't need press to sell the GT. Of course GM would like to see it kill everything they throw at it but thats just not realistic when you have track prepared cars like the GT2RS on unobtainable, bespoke tires.
IMO GM knows they built a spectacular car, the buyers know that too, and mag reviews (good or bad) will not influence that. Their total focus shifted months ago (if not before) to the C8 and how to make it a home run at launch. It will be the new "flagship" just as the stingray was and hopefully will get all the praise and then some as the stingray did (it won TONS of awards, BDC, etc in its first year).
As stated, GM will sell every single ZR1 they can build before C7 production ends in the spring and they do not need mag reviews to do it. Same as Ford doesn't need press to sell the GT. Of course GM would like to see it kill everything they throw at it but thats just not realistic when you have track prepared cars like the GT2RS on unobtainable, bespoke tires.
IMO GM knows they built a spectacular car, the buyers know that too, and mag reviews (good or bad) will not influence that. Their total focus shifted months ago (if not before) to the C8 and how to make it a home run at launch. It will be the new "flagship" just as the stingray was and hopefully will get all the praise and then some as the stingray did (it won TONS of awards, BDC, etc in its first year).
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village idiot (10-09-2018)
10-09-2018, 11:19 AM
#87
Thanks, you just agreed with me and proved my point. I was only speculating based on another person's theory. Not suggesting its some new "magical strategy" lol. It's not strategy at all, possibly lack of one. I wasn't suggesting they made the car perform poorly ON PURPOSE, just that they did not take the time to make sure it performed to its fullest potential in some of the tests/comparisons. That is well documented (as you state) and proves it is not a priority for GM. Now the C8, you bet your bottom dollar they will be doing everything they can to make sure that car is as well received as possible.
10-09-2018, 11:39 AM
#88
Historical trivia - I'm wondering how fast the 1997 CART camera car (the black Texaco champ car) used in the IMAX movie Super Speedway would be. Since it was a camera car, similar to the 919 evo, it wasn't restricted to racing rules, so power was upped to 1000 hp or more, and downforce was increased, mostly to deal with the IMAX camera. Still even with the camera, it could easily out run the other CART cars it was filming, It was allowed to film during events at two (possible more) of the CART events shown in the movie. Technically CART cars could be considered to be two cars, as different noses and smaller wings were used on the high speed oval tracks, with 3 of the cars averaging 240+ mph laps at California speedway reaching 265 mph at the end of the straights during qualification in 2000. Later Paul Tracy recorded a trap speed of 255 mph during the Michigan 500 race.
Last edited by rcgldr; 10-09-2018 at 11:45 AM.
10-09-2018, 03:18 PM
#89
Le Mans Master
Why do you think Ford pulled the GT from basically all mag tests/comparisons this year? They don't care about the mag reviews and know the GT would get SMOKED by the competition. The ZR1 is only the "flagship car" for a year. It was only an exercise to squeeze every last drop of performance out of the C7 platform. Once the ME C8 is unveiled, the C7 will basically be forgotten as far as GM is concerned at least. Case in point, if GM cared so much it wouldn't have provided a ZR1 on worn out Cup 2s to a comparison against one, if not the biggest of, its rivals in the GT2RS. GM knew if was going to get roasted by C&D either way and could not perform as well as the GT2RS on its Cup 2Rs.
As stated, GM will sell every single ZR1 they can build before C7 production ends in the spring and they do not need mag reviews to do it. Same as Ford doesn't need press to sell the GT. Of course GM would like to see it kill everything they throw at it but thats just not realistic when you have track prepared cars like the GT2RS on unobtainable, bespoke tires.
IMO GM knows they built a spectacular car, the buyers know that too, and mag reviews (good or bad) will not influence that. Their total focus shifted months ago (if not before) to the C8 and how to make it a home run at launch. It will be the new "flagship" just as the stingray was and hopefully will get all the praise and then some as the stingray did (it won TONS of awards, BDC, etc in its first year).
As stated, GM will sell every single ZR1 they can build before C7 production ends in the spring and they do not need mag reviews to do it. Same as Ford doesn't need press to sell the GT. Of course GM would like to see it kill everything they throw at it but thats just not realistic when you have track prepared cars like the GT2RS on unobtainable, bespoke tires.
IMO GM knows they built a spectacular car, the buyers know that too, and mag reviews (good or bad) will not influence that. Their total focus shifted months ago (if not before) to the C8 and how to make it a home run at launch. It will be the new "flagship" just as the stingray was and hopefully will get all the praise and then some as the stingray did (it won TONS of awards, BDC, etc in its first year).
Yeah they want the reviews, but don't care if they're shitty? Why would GM want bad press for their flagship car?
GM has sold every single car (or damn close to) they've ever made. What's your point? Do you think they throw them in the ocean or something? They can always make/sell more or give less incentives. It's, you know, how they make money.
10-09-2018, 03:20 PM
#90
Le Mans Master
Thanks, you just agreed with me and proved my point. I was only speculating based on another person's theory. Not suggesting its some new "magical strategy" lol. It's not strategy at all, possibly lack of one. I wasn't suggesting they made the car perform poorly ON PURPOSE, just that they did not take the time to make sure it performed to its fullest potential in some of the tests/comparisons. That is well documented (as you state) and proves it is not a priority for GM. Now the C8, you bet your bottom dollar they will be doing everything they can to make sure that car is as well received as possible.
I saw where someone very convincingly posted about GM intentionally sending under prepared cars (worn tires, etc.) to these tests so the ZR1 doesn't perform to its fullest potential. The reasoning was that GM was not interested in the mag reviews since the ZR1 will be a single year model and will clearly be WAY more capable than the C8 at launch. You can read and soak up all the mag reviews you want but I had my ZR1 on COTA this past weekend and it sure was a pleasure passing Porsche GT3s one after another!
Fact of the matter is GM does not need mag reviews to sell each and every ZR1 they can build nor does it want to overshadow the upcoming release of the ME C8. Each ZR1 is already sold and there are still people in line trying to get allocations. What a flop, poorly made, and under engineered car LMAO. I guess haters gunna hate, and boy you sure are one...
Fact of the matter is GM does not need mag reviews to sell each and every ZR1 they can build nor does it want to overshadow the upcoming release of the ME C8. Each ZR1 is already sold and there are still people in line trying to get allocations. What a flop, poorly made, and under engineered car LMAO. I guess haters gunna hate, and boy you sure are one...
Last edited by village idiot; 10-09-2018 at 03:20 PM.
10-09-2018, 06:59 PM
#91
Le Mans Master
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10-09-2018, 08:05 PM
#92
I am a 2019 ZR1 owner. I love the car and could not care less how they it is reviewed or if a Prius driving magazine writer/editor likes it. I'm really not sure why you are so balled up about this, I am in no way hating on the ZR1. If anything I am disappointed that GM did not do its best to give it a fighting chance when it truly can "hang with the big dogs".
10-09-2018, 08:06 PM
#93
The original post is poorly thought through and full of misinformation. That much is obvious and has been proven over and over in a variety of responses in this thread.
I do think the tire temperature issue is critical with these cars. As is driver skill and the understanding that you need to roll into the throttle.
I would also say that I think the ZR1 and probably the Z06 have too much torque. The cautious and or skilled driver can manage it along with a fantastic traction control system but the design of the engine produces too much torque down low. I'm not sure who started it but Ferrari limits the torque in lower gears with their modern cars that are turbocharged. I believe this is smart thinking for the vast majority of owners. If the ZR1 was limited to 550 foot-pounds of torque in lower gears or lower in the Rev range it would make the thing easier for just about everybody to handle When approaching the limit of performance.
I have no idea how that would work with a supercharger but perhaps the C8 won't use superchargers and GM will move to turbos. If so, maybe GM will consider limiting torque in the first two or three gears to go along with the Mid Engine design and the greater traction for acceleration that it offers.
I do think the tire temperature issue is critical with these cars. As is driver skill and the understanding that you need to roll into the throttle.
I would also say that I think the ZR1 and probably the Z06 have too much torque. The cautious and or skilled driver can manage it along with a fantastic traction control system but the design of the engine produces too much torque down low. I'm not sure who started it but Ferrari limits the torque in lower gears with their modern cars that are turbocharged. I believe this is smart thinking for the vast majority of owners. If the ZR1 was limited to 550 foot-pounds of torque in lower gears or lower in the Rev range it would make the thing easier for just about everybody to handle When approaching the limit of performance.
I have no idea how that would work with a supercharger but perhaps the C8 won't use superchargers and GM will move to turbos. If so, maybe GM will consider limiting torque in the first two or three gears to go along with the Mid Engine design and the greater traction for acceleration that it offers.
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desmophile (10-11-2018)
10-10-2018, 07:31 AM
#95
Race Director
^^^^
Ron White sums it up:
Ron White sums it up:
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DebRedZR1 (10-10-2018)
10-11-2018, 08:16 AM
#97
Burning Brakes
Hey Poor-sha... Let us know when you get a chance to drive those AS3's around the block.
The MPSC2 does not get along with wet at all and in Florida we have to frequently deal with standing rain on concrete. So I'm thinking of replacing them with the AS3's when the car is delivered.
Thanks...
The MPSC2 does not get along with wet at all and in Florida we have to frequently deal with standing rain on concrete. So I'm thinking of replacing them with the AS3's when the car is delivered.
Thanks...
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DebRedZR1 (10-12-2018)
10-11-2018, 09:13 PM
#98
Burning Brakes
I've always wondered why the Vette has trouble putting power down. My Z06 felt more powerful than it actually was because it was always spinning tire, and every Vette I've driven has felt the same. The Vette diehards say it's just a function of high power RWD cars, but my ACR has zero drama and very rarely breaks the tires loose, even when burying the throttle in 1st gear. My observation is the traction difference is night and day.
I slip and slide in my base Stingray and hear the Z06 with so much low end torque makes it hard to put the power down but the Grand Sport gets praises for being the more balanced Corvette. That 460/465 in the LT1 matched to the Z06 chassis suspension and tire seem to be the sweet spot.
10-12-2018, 09:08 AM
#99
Le Mans Master
wow, Maybe GM should tone it down so the lo po drivers don't complain as much. Seriously? The Zr-1 has been killing at the track and has some very serious upgrade potential with a bit more fuel and pulley
you can pick up quite a few ponies just with exh and intake mods with no tuning updates. If you want to complain about something, complain about the dealer gouging and tires or something else!!
Never too much hp, only too little traction. I do agree that GM needs to do more with "boost by speed" type traction controls to plain available hp on the street better.
bolt on some gummies an go but don't expect a big hp car to hook on the street with a ham fisted approach to the throttle
ALL of the vettes made today will roast the tires as will, So yall be careful out there with your professor klump right foot.
you can pick up quite a few ponies just with exh and intake mods with no tuning updates. If you want to complain about something, complain about the dealer gouging and tires or something else!!
Never too much hp, only too little traction. I do agree that GM needs to do more with "boost by speed" type traction controls to plain available hp on the street better.
bolt on some gummies an go but don't expect a big hp car to hook on the street with a ham fisted approach to the throttle
ALL of the vettes made today will roast the tires as will, So yall be careful out there with your professor klump right foot.
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desmophile (10-12-2018)
10-12-2018, 09:52 AM
#100
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=Rkreigh;1598146100
Never too much hp, only too little traction. I do agree that GM needs to do more with "boost by speed" type traction controls to plain available hp on the street better.
[/QUOTE]
Good point. It is the tire technology that is the limiting factor now. That is why I think AWD is fundamentally better with such power high levels. The power just becomes more usable and less intimidating when pushed to the limit.
Never too much hp, only too little traction. I do agree that GM needs to do more with "boost by speed" type traction controls to plain available hp on the street better.
[/QUOTE]
Good point. It is the tire technology that is the limiting factor now. That is why I think AWD is fundamentally better with such power high levels. The power just becomes more usable and less intimidating when pushed to the limit.