E Z06

Exactly

E Z06

ZR1 2:39.5 at Lightning Lap. Finished 1.8 sec behind the Porsche that cost $190K more. The ZR1 and 911 GT2 RS were nearly dead even clock at the hair pin. Not sure how the ZR1 trailed by 1.8 sec at the finish ? Anyway My money is on the ZR1

SouthernSon

The mention of learning momentum driving is a subject that comes up often. The Miata is indeed a good teaching tool. However, as one gains track experience they learn that ALL cars are MOMENTUM cars. Some lucky drivers learn HP and momentum when they have a high HP car. If you are driving a high HP car and accelerate quickly to the next turn but then kill your momentum by going deep into threshold braking but slow down much too much by not releasing the brake then you probably should relegate your driving to only the miata to be courteous to the others on the track that know how to drive a high HP car.

Poor-sha

I agree and a Miata also won't teach you throttle control.

Lavender

Actually its much more than $190k and it was not driven on its factory tires... That speaks volumes for the ZR1.

snampro

Simple physics and material limitations. "Cold" day, probably cold tires, going open-loop full throttle is only a test of your courage.

The same people would complain should the manufacturer retard power or control it differently to keep the car more...tame.

You are right-on Warp, with great torque/horsepower comes great throttle control responsibility.

All in good fun, drive safe!

village idiot

Yeah, okay, I disagree with a lot of this, but I have absolutely no idea what this has to do with our discussion or why she threw it out there as an (attempted) insult and laughing out of nowhere (see below).


All of that aside, I track my Grand Sport just as much as the Miata. I've driven plenty of high power cars on the track. I've owned track-only liter bikes and 600s as well. I constantly learn more from my Miata which is why I'm keeping it in addition to whatever I buy this winter. If I wanted a monster track car, I'd have one. I have absolutely no desire to own a 750hp track car. Truth be told, karts are a lot more fun and a hell of a lot better to learn on. Anyone can mash the gas pedal. Yeah, throttle control is a skill, but it's probably the easiest to learn, and you can easily over throttle a Miata if you get greedy on the gas anyway.

SouthernSon

There you go!

heavychevy

It's possible to learn, you just have to PRACTICE it. Just like you don't have to learn to heel toe, you can get away without it, but you are a better driver with it. The only thing about high hp cars is that they are easy to be fastest at the DE thereby making it seem that you don't have much else to learn. This is false. Driving a fast car fast (near it's limit) is much more difficult than driving a slow car fast. And one is not necessarily a precursor to the other. Fast drivers practice proper techniques which applies to any car. The fastest in and out of the corner and the most speed you can maintain while keeping the proper line, the better. That is an oversimplification, but it's true, regardless of car. (Ok maybe you can floor it mostly in a miata after braking). Fast in/fast out, max throttle when applicable, smooth (but not slow) transitions on brake, off brake, on throttle off throttle. You can take Road Atlanta turn 12 full tilt in a miata no problem. Try that in a Z06, GT3 or ZR1, not gonna happen. But what does happen happens much, MUCH faster and takes far more effort to get the most out of it.

Hop in a miata and be 2-3 seconds off the pace quickly, hop in a high hp car, with far higher grip, speed and cornering thresholds and it's much more challenging. Advanced drivers find themselves 5-6-10 seconds off the pace easily. Go compare the fastest lap threads to the mag tests. There are plenty of guys who have raced with Randy in chump series and been within a whisker in terms of lap times. That's not the case in a 700+ hp car. There are not plenty who can handle that kind of speed and power.



This is what most people miss. They get going fast and stop honing their driving skills. In a momentum car you HAVE to corner well to turn a decent time. In a high hp car you can still do fast times and suck at cornering. Even though those times are NO WHERE NEAR the ultimate potential of the car. There are plenty of momentum car drivers that are scared to death of high hp cars. You can't flat foot it everywhere, throttle modulation while at the limit is the toughest skill there is, especially on tires with extreme fall off from max grip to 101% max grip. And there are places where you need to flat foot it, but the stakes are much higher, and your level of courage is put to the test.

The HACK

That, is patently false. Someone who MASTERED the art of driving in a low powered car will inherently be fast in a higher horse power car. You won't find a driver that can wring the last 10th out of a Miata and all of a sudden he/she can't drive a fast lap in a Corvette. But the reverse is absolutely true. You take a guy that's used to setting club lap records in a Porsche GT3, and stick him in a Spec E30 race? You can watch him get lapped over and over by the field.

High horsepower cars mask ALL. It does. You may think you're getting on the throttle as early as humanly possible and cranking perfect laps. In all reality, the faster and more powerful the car is, the SLOWER all your input needs to be. I've been instructing for over a decade now, and I see this ALL THE TIME. Guys that show up in a high horsepower car as rookies, almost always take much longer to progress in his skillset. Sure, he's out there catching and lapping people in the same group, and ultimately because of the pace difference, you'd have to bump him from Novice to Intermediate because his car is THAT much faster.

But he, as a driver, is NOT.

Now, you throw some rookie in a Miata and after 2 track days give him a Corvette? Yeah, he's not going to be fast in the Corvette. You throw that same rookie, have him go through 100 days at the track in that Miata, then throw him a Corvette? He'll master it in less than 3 laps and rip faster laps than the same guy who's driven nothing but that same Corvette for 100 days on track.

Again, I've seen this happen way too often to chalk it up to a fluke or outlier. The nuances in the fundamentals of driving fast is far easier to master in a slower car. It takes 3-5x more track days to see the little difference 1/10th of a second makes in when throttle application happens in a high powered car because that 1/10th of a second is an eternity in a car like a Miata.

heavychevy

Inherently, Lol, yeah right. Momentum car driving doesn't teach you throttle modulation on corner exit. You are wrong. Some of the best spec E30 racers in the southeast bought a high hp corvette recently. Still 3 seconds off the pace of the previous owner after over a year of ownership.

In fact previous owner ran on Mpsc what they are turning on Hoosiers.

Facts man, facts.

Take 5 top miata drivers and 5 top corvette drivers and see who has the bigger delta. You will eat those words immediately.

The areas that need attention on a fast car are far more frequent and sensitive. You can lay a miata flat for 90 percent of a lap at Road Atlanta. You are taking all the corners slowly on tires that are stronger than your engine. No modulation required. All that is required is a good feel for throttle and tire limit balance. All things that are PREREQUISITE for driving to a fast cars limit.

Notice I said limit. Not fast times for DE, which I already clarified in my earlier post.

The LIMIT of a momentum car is much easier to find than the LIMIT of a high hp one. Simple physics nullify your argument.

SouthernSon

Well put!

The HACK

Limit? Let me share with you some fact. I've been instructing for over a decade with various HPDE organizations. My lap count is in the THOUSANDS on local tracks, not hundreds. The only thing holding me back from a competition license is cost, in time and resources, otherwise I've got all the prerequisite, including race school, to earn a competition license with NASA and SCCA in my region.

But all that is meaningless, just to set some records straight for my anecdote below.

At one of our DEs, at, of all places, SPRING MOUNTAIN, I was out setting what I thought was hot sh*t laps in my car, a car that I've owned and operated for over 10 years and am intimately familiar with the "limits" with. I mean, INTIMATE. Right? So a friend and I were in the classroom dissecting our driving and some student's videos. So my friend brought up the POSSIBILITY of shaving at least another 1 second off my fastest lap, and I of course BALK at the possibility.

Sure enough. I took the bait. I toss him the keys to my baby and he went out in the next session to churn some hot laps. Now, the conditions are nearly equal, except he weighs about 80-100 lbs more than I do. There's no way he'd churn a faster time. No way. This is a car that I tracked for 10+ years, and I am AT THE LIMIT. Tire howling and leaving nothing on the table fast, right?

Right. We look at data and video sure enough. He's 0.7 seconds faster than my fastest lap time. My jaw just about hit the floor. We watched video side by side in class, because, you know, for the sake of students? I'm racking my brain trying to figure out where he gained that 0.7 seconds on a 2 minute and change lap, as data indicates we're nearly full throttle and brake at almost all the same points...And he's nearly 100lbs heavier!

Then he started pointing out the LITTLE things. Like he's 6 inches closer to the apex and exit on every exit. 6 elfin' inches. Less than 1/2 the width of the tire. Never had 6 inches mattered so much outside of the bedroom. Basically, that little bit of exit space and velocity amounts to almost 1/10th of a second per corner, and when all said and done, on a 12-15 turn course it can be the difference of up to a SECOND PER LAP. If he weighs the same as me, that difference would have been over a second per lap.

Guess what he drives and races? Spec E30.

In a Spec E30 race, that's the kind of precision that he needs to execute to end up on the podium consistently. Cars are usually no more than a foot apart nose to tail for laps on end. And my car had more than 150 HP on tap compared to his Spec E30, but in the end, it doesn't really matter (no I am not a Linkin Park fan) the HP, but the PRECISION of your driving that defines the LIMIT of what your car can do. And that sort of precision is much HARDER to learn if you start out with a high powered car.

Again, 10+ years of experience, and seeing participants learn FIRST HAND on a variety of cars doesn't lie either. Those that start with high HP cars take 3-5x longer to master the art of driving fast in ANY car.

SouthernSon

Hack, you point out the one main feedback afforded a driver in a low HP car; the difference in the lines of a certain turn. The difference in RPM and shift points on exit are much more easily discernible. However, I don't see much in your post on the finer points of getting the most out of a high HP car; they are many and much more demanding. Don't think you are the only one here with track/instructing experience for many years.

traind

Randy's career has more credibility in one driving glove than most enthusiasts will ever have. Not everyone gets to race on the biggest stages but Pobst won on those he did compete on. And won plenty.

He isn't a writer by trade, yet I enjoyed that article. Probably because i don't get butt hurt when someone criticizes a car I own or like.

Poor-sha

The biggest loss or gains in time I see in data are in two areas, carrying more speed through heavy braking zones and getting back to full throttle sooner. The reality is that braking from 160 MPH to 45 and from 120 MPH to 45 are very different and even if two drivers start braking at the same time and arrive at the same apex speed there is often over half a second advantage to the driver that can carry that extra 3-5 MPH through that braking zone. Throw a driver only used to slower speeds in that high HP car and they are going to struggle to carry that speed through the brake zone because it is way outside of their comfort zone and will be for a long time. Similarly, you can't just run around flat to the floor in a Z06 like you can in a Miata and being able to gauge the rear grip to get back to WOT soonest safely is going to be much harder to learn. Of course, I've never tracked anything with less than 500 HP.

heavychevy

3-5x longer, lol, like you really have data to support that. I've been tracking for almost 15 years, instructing for half. Matter of fact I'm a check ride instructor for the biggest DE provider in the country (outside of NASA, with whom I also am instructor certified) Good drivers are good drivers. They have good hand eye coordination, good instincts, feel and a certain level of aggression. They come in all type of cars, the type of car does not determine the driver. What you are really noticing is that the limit of the low hp car is so much easier accessible that they get close to it quicker. The limit of the high hp car is much much higher, so, yes, it does take longer to reach a higher limit, because the difficulty level is higher. You have to learn and develop more skills and a higher skill set. Higher speeds on straights in corners and under braking. More grip but less traction per inch of throttle input, higher levels and more frequency of consequences just to name a few. Sometimes it can take infinitely longer because even advanced drivers aren't willing to take that risk. More hp is usually more expensive to replace as well.

Like I said your average advanced DE driver can get to with in a second or three of Randy Pobst in a miata. That will be 5-10 seconds in a ZR1. This is not conjecture.


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traind

I pounced on your earlier post but have to agree with this. Someone else said throttle control is the hardest skill...what? I guess it may vary by person but have they ever heard of threshold,braking at,the limit?

And as you say, any car at the cornering limit will need throttle,modulation. Its just easier in a Miata vs a Corvette.

TrackAire

I think your Spring Mountain story only weakens your argument about momentum cars and practicing with lower hp cars to learn. I once had a Japanese judo trainer tell me that only perfect practice makes perfect. If I got nothing else out of judo, that phase is how I try to live my life. Here is the ideal example of your friend being slightly faster than you because your line was not perfect. You could drive your car for another 10 years and not get any faster if you're not perfect on your apex lines, braking points, etc, etc. High horsepower cars (especially with no stability control) will show every weakness you have on the track since you have so much less time between corners to set up your line and get your braking perfect....not to mention throttle modulation, more lateral G's physically wearing you out, etc.

The other issue (one that nobody really talks about) is some drivers just will never be "fast" regardless of what they drive, how much they practice or how many drivers schools they attend. This is no different than a guy that bowls in a league once a week and with an additional practice day every week for the last 20 years......and his average is still 215. It is what it is.....not everybody is going to reach the pinnacle of driving talent because at some point certain drivers are fast naturally (what I call The Lucky Sperm Club).

When somebody starts talking about being a fast driver or they are at their cars limit, I often suggest this little test. Go to any commercial go kart track like K1, etc. Look at the list of the top 100 fast times for the last 30 days. If you can go out and be within 5% of the fastest time listed, you're probably part of the Lucky Sperm Club......and I hate you, lol.

village idiot

Okay, so there has been a crap ton of debate but no one has explained to me why the hell she (a moderator at that) tried to insult me by saying I drive a miata at the track.
Me: Almost no ZR1 owners have a ZR1 as their only car
Her: NUH UH! Go enjoy your Miata, LOLZ!!!! [and then some incoherent gobblygook]
What the hell does my Miata have to do with daily driving a ZR1?

and that's how we're somehow debating whether or not it's best to learn on a snap oversteer prone 750hp, 3600lb, 130k car or a Miata.



But sure, I'll join:
You guys are interchanging top end HPDE drivers and top end Racers. Huge difference. 99.9% of HPDE only drivers wouldn't be anywhere near the top half of a real race (unless they spent a lot on their car, and even then). It's no surprise fast HPDE miata guys aren't super fast in a 700hp car. They still have a crap ton of learning ahead of them, and driving a 700hp car to the limit is harder than driving a 100hp car to the limit. Take the winner of the MX cup and put him in any car and he'll be competitive. These fastest miata guys you all are talking about at HPDE are still way off the mark of what the Miata is capable of, so it's no surprise they are off the mark for a 700hp car too.

Also, keep in mind that finding a second in a Miata is a hell of a lot harder than it is in a 500hp car, ESPECIALLY for amateurs. Getting on the gas 1 second earlier means putting down 100hp for a second vs 700hp (and whoever was talking about late braking, lol- there's VERY little time to be gained in braking. Late braking is good for passing, but braking 50 ft later- it's not going to yield you much time). Go drive some karts and you'll see how hard it is to find a second vs. ZR1.

It's a lot more fun and educational to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. You're not learning anything if you're not putting the car close to the limit in corners, and as its been discussed, it's obviously a lot harder to come near the limit of a Miata than a ZR1.

You better be one hell of a damn good driver if you're going to talk about how you need a ZR1 to further your skills and are ragging on people doing track days in Miatas, and I'm guessing none of you (myself included) are there. The fastest HPDE drivers and instructors (who never competitively raced) are not fast compared to even mid-pack racers. Racer fast is a totally different level of fast.

It's funny that every single competitive racer has told me to get a slow, light car, and I'm rarely passed in my GS in advanced drive groups once I learn a circuit, but people here are saying the opposite.

I still have no idea why the hell I was "insulted" for driving a miata (it's not like I don't have a C7), especially when it had absolutely no relevance to the conversation.


His review sucked, regardless of the merits of the car. He compared an A8 ZR1 to a PDK GT2RS and didn't note the transmission, weights that are responsible for stuff he's describing and he's baffled about the brake pedal being spongy when it's beyond obvious the brake fluid was the problem, not the hardware or pads. It was like listening to Al Bundy critique a high school football game.