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Time to Kill Nurburgring Lap Record Reporting

Old 11-08-2018, 03:41 AM
  #81  
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Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt running a 7:13.90 in a C7 Z06/Z07.

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Old 11-08-2018, 04:30 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by heavychevy View Post
Soooo, you want me to compare Lou's never been to ring before, race world challenge several yeas ago (not sure if raced professionally since) very first few laps at the LONGEST LAP IN THE WORLD to factory Porsche driver and ring expert Kevin Estre........

You can't even begin to make an argument that it's a car thing and not a driver familiarity wihh track/talent thing. Lou may have won some in World Challenge, but you can't with a straight face make an objective case that these cars were driven with equal talent and track knowledge.

I'm sure you will try anyways but you know I know better and I know you know better. Hard to take your opinion serious when it's so heavily biased so often. It's ok to have a reasonable opinion in spite of your preference.
​​​​​
That was precisely my point, sorry if it wasn't clear, the GM camp isn't ever going to be on a level playing field around the ring even if the platform was capable.

The Porsche driver talent is on a whole nother level.

To see a guy doing laps that fast, while talking and passing cars is impressive.

Best Regards,
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:14 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Dave Schotz View Post


That was precisely my point, sorry if it wasn't clear, the GM camp isn't ever going to be on a level playing field around the ring even if the platform was capable.

The Porsche driver talent is on a whole nother level.

To see a guy doing laps that fast, while talking and passing cars is impressive.

Best Regards,
Dave
Your whole previous post made comparisons of the cars without any mention of the difference drivers skill/knowledge at all. Porsche drivers are great, but they aren't the only ones. There are locals who have done hundreds of laps there who are better equipped than Lou to drive that track based on familiarity alone. There is no way you learn the ring in 6 days getting busted for sound when laps take almost 8 minutes each. Without a skilled ring pro in the Corvette, there is no comparison to be made.

Matter of fact, here is a BTG lap, this one, i believe is only 10-15 seconds slower than the full BTG lap manufacturers use (Lou drove) as it only deletes the long straight. This guy had a C6Z with suspension and aero. So this lap would still be nearly 20 seconds up on Lou though I didn't time and sectors. Coincidentally enough he brought this same car to the US to a NASA event at Road Atlanta and ran it on Hoosiers. He's no pro driver, that I'm sure of.


Here is a street legal one running 7:10 on the shorter BTG variant with a passenger and plenty of traffic. Would still be about as fast as Lou was in his limited time there. Random dude, not a pro.


Last edited by heavychevy; 11-08-2018 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:29 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by heavychevy View Post
Your whole previous post made comparisons of the cars without any mention of the difference drivers skill/knowledge at all. Porsche drivers are great, but they aren't the only ones. There are locals who have done hundreds of laps there who are better equipped than Lou to drive that track based on familiarity alone. There is no way you learn the ring in 6 days getting busted for sound when laps take almost 8 minutes each. Without a skilled ring pro in the Corvette, there is no comparison to be made.

Matter of fact, here is a BTG lap, this one, i believe is only 10-15 seconds slower than the full BTG lap manufacturers use (Lou drove) as it only deletes the long straight. This guy had a C6Z with suspension and aero. So this lap would still be nearly 20 seconds up on Lou though I didn't time and sectors. Coincidentally enough he brought this same car to the US to a NASA event at Road Atlanta and ran it on Hoosiers. He's no pro driver, that I'm sure of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7ysd-MWoeM

Here is a street legal one running 7:10 on the shorter BTG variant with a passenger and plenty of traffic. Would still be about as fast as Lou was in his limited time there. Random dude, not a pro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEeLeJ6APNs
I Think you just like to argue, which I guess is good for you if you aren't able to take frustrations out on the race track... But right here I clearly called out the advantage Porsche drivers have:

"The GT cars are truly in another league at the Ring. Doesn't mean they will be around US' much shorter tracks,... but I think it also lends merit to not just the confidence and capability of the GT Cars, but the drivers Porsche has, clearly know that track incredibly well."

By the way... The examples you share are C6's lol... Again, never any history of heat issues and all manual trans cars.

My fault for thinking you could be objective. You just like to argue.

Dave

Last edited by Dave Schotz; 11-08-2018 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 11-08-2018, 06:21 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Dave Schotz View Post

"The GT cars are truly in another league at the Ring.

My fault for thinking you could be objective. You just like to argue.

Dave
Yes Dave, the question is how well, in general.
Originally Posted by heavychevy View Post
Who cares about diffs locking? That can be done mechanically. It's called an Lsd. The Porsche uses ptv in front to help rotate the car and cover for the inherent to 911 understeer mid corner.
​​​​​​
Who cares about the VARIABLE diff locking in the GT cars PTV-Plus/Braking; add PDK, and Race Tires!?
Interesting it's the TECH you haven't taken delivery on yet, and Heavy was not quite arguing well (there is more, and NO!) minimizing what is very much the beauty of those beasts.

Drifting Not! Your GT3, Pobst in the ZR1, and 'Race Mode!' See Boys!!!!

'Velocity and Line!'

He's liking that PDK too!?

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Old 11-08-2018, 08:11 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Dave Schotz View Post


I Think you just like to argue, which I guess is good for you if you aren't able to take frustrations out on the race track... But right here I clearly called out the advantage Porsche drivers have:

"The GT cars are truly in another league at the Ring. Doesn't mean they will be around US' much shorter tracks,... but I think it also lends merit to not just the confidence and capability of the GT Cars, but the drivers Porsche has, clearly know that track incredibly well."

By the way... The examples you share are C6's lol... Again, never any history of heat issues and all manual trans cars.

My fault for thinking you could be objective. You just like to argue.

Dave
My mistake I overlooked that part after reading the first part of your post.

So objective is trying to sell comparing a former self sponsored pro driver who's driving for the first time at the Nurburgring to a Porsche paid factory driver who sets lap records there?

THERE IS NO COMPARISON TO BE MADE. AT ALL.. PERIOD. ITS NOT EVEN WORTH MENTIONING.

But you tried anyways. Save that for someone who doesn't know better. And you tried to sell it by saying you thought he drove extremely well? Lol, I know you saw that video and it's of a driver who clearly doesn't know the track. How is that driven extremely well?

Go ahead, spin away. Your bias continues to shine through. I am unbiased. That's why I don't always agree with anyone. Too many people can't form an honest non biased opinion.

Last edited by heavychevy; 11-08-2018 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 11-08-2018, 03:32 PM
  #87  
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Default GT3RS?? Give me a break!

Originally Posted by Dave Schotz View Post


I Think you just like to argue, which I guess is good for you if you aren't able to take frustrations out on the race track... But right here I clearly called out the advantage Porsche drivers have:

"The GT cars are truly in another league at the Ring. Doesn't mean they will be around US' much shorter tracks,... but I think it also lends merit to not just the confidence and capability of the GT Cars, but the drivers Porsche has, clearly know that track incredibly well."

By the way... The examples you share are C6's lol... Again, never any history of heat issues and all manual trans cars.

My fault for thinking you could be objective. You just like to argue.

Dave
Dave,

Seasoned tracker and all, You have a very interesting way of presenting pseudo evidence and extrapolating causation and correlation with “your” data.Although I disagree with Heavy on the “PTM thing”, Heavy has also been rather consistent in his analysis. If I look at his coverage of the corvette PTM I surmise he is rightfully leery of manufacturer controlled tests to showcase their product.
The same applies to Porsches's ring video shows. After a year, the "expert" community, especially 911 fans in Germany, have covered at length the things Porsche wanted us to see in the videos as well as the things they did not want us to see, forgot to mention, or outright mislead with legalese cleverness.

Toungue and cheek and the house of cards back and forth pilot/car/pilot..
The GT cars are truly in another league at the Ring.
At this stage, to even suggest that the GT3RS is so dialed in to the ring that is on a different level (at the ring) than a ZR1 it’s simply asinine. In the US plenty of evidence that without “tricks” a stock GT2RS may barely have a 50/50 chance in any track with a ZR1 and you are sale pitching a GT3RS against a ZR1?? Cheers.

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Old 11-08-2018, 06:10 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Telepierre View Post
At this stage, to even suggest that the GT3RS is so dialed in to the ring that is on a different level (at the ring) than a ZR1 it’s simply asinine. In the US plenty of evidence that without “tricks” a stock GT2RS may barely have a 50/50 chance in any track with a ZR1 and you are sale pitching a GT3RS against a ZR1?? Cheers.
Always people getting their feelings hurt and have to come running to corvette defense.

GT2RS is 4 seconds faster at Laguna Seca, and over 2 seconds faster at both Willow and VIR. So to think the GT3RS might not be quicker, while working 200 less hp... Isn't that far fetched, as the car is certainly going to be easier to drive at the limit of 520 hp vs 755 hp.

The unbiased video I posted was from an independent Ring Taxi driver, as the passenger... Which unlike all the conspiracy theorists on here... Removed the lightweight car, special tires theory. And still damn fast.

I actually believe (and always have) the Zr1 should be right at or below a 7 minute lap time, if GM used an actual pro driver familiar with the ring. The only item I also believe they need to accomplish this is an actual manual transmission instead of the complete POS automatic. That is my only criticism of the ZR1, and when I decide to get one, I'll be sure to get a manual... And then all the automatic guys can tell me how much faster they are at the dragstrip! 😝

Best Regards,
Dave

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Old 11-08-2018, 07:45 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Dave Schotz View Post


Always people getting their feelings hurt and have to come running to corvette defense.

GT2RS is 4 seconds faster at Laguna Seca, and over 2 seconds faster at both Willow and VIR. So to think the GT3RS might not be quicker, while working 200 less hp... Isn't that far fetched, as the car is certainly going to be easier to drive at the limit of 520 hp vs 755 hp.

The unbiased video I posted was from an independent Ring Taxi driver, as the passenger... Which unlike all the conspiracy theorists on here... Removed the lightweight car, special tires theory. And still damn fast.

I actually believe (and always have) the Zr1 should be right at or below a 7 minute lap time, if GM used an actual pro driver familiar with the ring. The only item I also believe they need to accomplish this is an actual manual transmission instead of the complete POS automatic. That is my only criticism of the ZR1, and when I decide to get one, I'll be sure to get a manual... And then all the automatic guys can tell me how much faster they are at the dragstrip! 😝

Best Regards,
Dave

GT2 RS was tested on the stock Cup 2 N2 spec? Interesting..

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Old 11-08-2018, 07:47 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Telepierre View Post
Dave,

Seasoned tracker and all, You have a very interesting way of presenting pseudo evidence and extrapolating causation and correlation with “your” data.Although I disagree with Heavy on the “PTM thing”, Heavy has also been rather consistent in his analysis. If I look at his coverage of the corvette PTM I surmise he is rightfully leery of manufacturer controlled tests to showcase their product.
The same applies to Porsches's ring video shows. After a year, the "expert" community, especially 911 fans in Germany, have covered at length the things Porsche wanted us to see in the videos as well as the things they did not want us to see, forgot to mention, or outright mislead with legalese cleverness.

Toungue and cheek and the house of cards back and forth pilot/car/pilot.. At this stage, to even suggest that the GT3RS is so dialed in to the ring that is on a different level (at the ring) than a ZR1 it’s simply asinine. In the US plenty of evidence that without “tricks” a stock GT2RS may barely have a 50/50 chance in any track with a ZR1 and you are sale pitching a GT3RS against a ZR1?? Cheers.
Both the Macca 720S and the Baby Bull Performante beat the GT2 RS like a drum @ Europe when it was actually driven on the stock Cup 2 N2 spec tires...
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:12 PM
  #91  
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Speaking of the Cup 2R. They still havent been released to the public yet. Tire rack keeps pushing the date back every month for a couple of months now.

This is not a slight upgrade to Cup 2's. This is a race tire.

​​​​​​Almost $800 per front and almost $900 per rear.

$3400 per set!!! Dave, even you can't spin these as some slightly upgraded tire for that price. Regular cup 2's are far cheaper.

The Porsche's are not on some other worldly level. Porsche does have better quality control supplying vehicles for testing and better usage of its factory drivers for lap records. But a GT3 RS is not on the same level as a ZR1 at most of the major tracks in America. Especially not on regular cup 2 which BTW you can get regular compound cup 2 and not Porsche spec since you think they are slow.

A GT3 RS is not on the same level. Unless the ZR1 starts to cut power. Lol.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:45 PM
  #92  
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The one factor that no one in this type of thread never considers is the Nut behind the wheel and the size of the ***** hanging from the nut.

I don't care which car you pick. it's only as good as the Driver of said car.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:56 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Telepierre View Post

Toungue

sugges.

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Old 11-08-2018, 09:14 PM
  #94  
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Would anyone argue the 12.9 mile Nurburgring Nordschliefe is the most difficult track in the world to run a (near) perfect lap. Practice makes perfect. Porsche has had more time on it than anyone. And now lets run a car that cost $1/3mil if you could actually find one, deletes air conditioning and a radio and wears exclusive Michelin tires that they describe as having significantly more grip than Cup2’s.(dont worry Cup Rs will be avail soon at double Cup 2 prices)..and then drive it with Porsches fastest factory pro driver. Now lets wonder why a GM team with a narrow window of time using recently retired Jim Mero, a very talented driver but who’s primary job was a GM engineer, didn’t come closer to the GT2’s time.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:10 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by heavychevy View Post
The Porsche's are not on some other worldly level. Porsche does have better quality control supplying vehicles for testing and better usage of its factory drivers for lap records. But a GT3 RS is not on the same level as a ZR1 at most of the major tracks in America. Especially not on regular cup 2 which BTW you can get regular compound cup 2 and not Porsche spec since you think they are slow.

A GT3 RS is not on the same level. Unless the ZR1 starts to cut power. Lol.
While I know this really won't get us anywhere near common ground... Sort of like a Democrat and a Republican nowadays, if one says the sky is blue the other has to disagree, but here it goes.

First off, and I hate that I have to discredit the ZR1 to make a point, but since you continue to try to discredit the Porsche, I'll stick to facts.

What makes this a no win position for the Porsche is any victory is because of the tires, so this is a losing argument for the GT cars, yet up until the cup 2R's, no one cried foul that the ZR1 had the most advanced Michelin track tire previously. (Pirelli trofeo R and KUMHO 720 still better for a lap)

So let's start with just the measly ole turbo SPorsche, on full tread street tires compared to Zr1:
Laguna Seca: .8 slower than Zr1
Willow Springs: .5 slower than Zr1
VIR: 6 seconds slower

So with the exception of VIR, a full tread street tired turbo S is within a second of the track spec Zr1!? And this isn't even a GT car with full spherical bearing suspension, 300+ less lbs and a competition tire... Come on man.

The GT3RS will beat the ZR1 at 2 of those three tracks... Handidly. But but the tires...

That's why I tried to share the 3RS, with a passenger, in traffic, fully loaded, on the street tire cup 2's, not the R tires...

While you say you can get non Porsche spec tires in the cup 2's, I'm disappointed in you continually playing stupid here... The corvette spec cup 2 is unique to only that car/size... And exactly why Mercedes uses the corvette tire for their track tests, because it is on a whole nother level when compared to a standard cup 2!

So no matter what, you either have a Porsche with a better tire (when equipped with a 2R) or corvette with a better tire when the RS is not equipped with a 2R.

To believe the 3RS is not in the same league (or better) than the ZR1 is only accurate of going for a top speed run. The 3RS and 2RS are track built road cars, meant to run the same time lap after lap after lap...

Nexr year, you'll have to eat crow when Pobst runs the 3RS at the same tracks, and you can then go back to the but but but the tires argument.

Carry on
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:56 PM
  #96  
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The truth is your GT3's especially without those tires are maybe a 7:20 to 7:10 Ring car.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:06 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by johnglenntwo View Post
The truth is your GT3's especially without those tires are maybe a 7:20 to 7:10 Ring car.
Lol, I'll respond because I'm impressed with you actually posting a complete sentence!

The 'regular' GT3 on full tread (read, slower than corvette spec cup 2) already went 7:12.

So I'm gonna reckon the RS with twice the aero, less weight, better suspension and wider track width goes 5 - 10 seconds faster than the standard GT3 even on the same tires.

But JG... what we all know, is whatever the time it will be faster than any time posted to date by GM. 😝

Best Regards,
Dave
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:15 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Dave Schotz View Post


While I know this really won't get us anywhere near common ground... Sort of like a Democrat and a Republican nowadays, if one says the sky is blue the other has to disagree, but here it goes.

First off, and I hate that I have to discredit the ZR1 to make a point, but since you continue to try to discredit the Porsche, I'll stick to facts.

What makes this a no win position for the Porsche is any victory is because of the tires, so this is a losing argument for the GT cars, yet up until the cup 2R's, no one cried foul that the ZR1 had the most advanced Michelin track tire previously. (Pirelli trofeo R and KUMHO 720 still better for a lap)

So let's start with just the measly ole turbo SPorsche, on full tread street tires compared to Zr1:
Laguna Seca: .8 slower than Zr1
Willow Springs: .5 slower than Zr1
VIR: 6 seconds slower

So with the exception of VIR, a full tread street tired turbo S is within a second of the track spec Zr1!? And this isn't even a GT car with full spherical bearing suspension, 300+ less lbs and a competition tire... Come on man.

The GT3RS will beat the ZR1 at 2 of those three tracks... Handidly. But but the tires...

That's why I tried to share the 3RS, with a passenger, in traffic, fully loaded, on the street tire cup 2's, not the R tires...

While you say you can get non Porsche spec tires in the cup 2's, I'm disappointed in you continually playing stupid here... The corvette spec cup 2 is unique to only that car/size... And exactly why Mercedes uses the corvette tire for their track tests, because it is on a whole nother level when compared to a standard cup 2!

So no matter what, you either have a Porsche with a better tire (when equipped with a 2R) or corvette with a better tire when the RS is not equipped with a 2R.

To believe the 3RS is not in the same league (or better) than the ZR1 is only accurate of going for a top speed run. The 3RS and 2RS are track built road cars, meant to run the same time lap after lap after lap...

Nexr year, you'll have to eat crow when Pobst runs the 3RS at the same tracks, and you can then go back to the but but but the tires argument.

Carry on
Thanks for the free comedy show by the way.
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:03 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Rinaldo Catria View Post
Would anyone argue the 12.9 mile Nurburgring Nordschliefe is the most difficult track in the world to run a (near) perfect lap.
Probably the guys that run Ilse of Man, 37.73 miles per lap . Example video. Note - Peter Hickman set a new record with average lap speed over 135 mph earlier this year, but I couldn't find a video of that run (apparently not part of a race), although there are a few montage videos of him. Speeds on the straights and some of the turns exceed 200 mph.


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Old 11-09-2018, 03:59 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Dave Schotz View Post


Always people getting their feelings hurt and have to come running to corvette defense.

GT2RS is 4 seconds faster at Laguna Seca, and over 2 seconds faster at both Willow and VIR. So to think the GT3RS might not be quicker, while working 200 less hp... Isn't that far fetched, as the car is certainly going to be easier to drive at the limit of 520 hp vs 755 hp.

The unbiased video I posted was from an independent Ring Taxi driver, as the passenger... Which unlike all the conspiracy theorists on here... Removed the lightweight car, special tires theory. And still damn fast.

I actually believe (and always have) the Zr1 should be right at or below a 7 minute lap time, if GM used an actual pro driver familiar with the ring. The only item I also believe they need to accomplish this is an actual manual transmission instead of the complete POS automatic. That is my only criticism of the ZR1, and when I decide to get one, I'll be sure to get a manual... And then all the automatic guys can tell me how much faster they are at the dragstrip! ��

Best Regards,
Dave











Always people getting their feelings hurt and have to come running to corvette defense.
Not the least (and you know it), you have me on record way back in September 17 right after the GT2RS Nurb. fake record summarily “concede” the car was highly specialized for track and comfortably faster than a ZR1. I was wrong.
Only after a rather detailed process of technical discovery (among the first.. if not the first..) and professional technical vetting amply documented on this forum I am now firmly convinced a stock ZR1 in a stock street driving configuration AND NORMAL COMPARATIVE TEST CONDITIONS can comfortably hold itself against a GT2RS. Again, if it was 80/20 for GT2RS in September 17, now it is 50/50 and you can make the cost delta & specialization implications…

"your evidence"
Most everything you are presenting for your case, whether videos and/or anecdotal “magazine evidence” have been revealed as heavily tainted or downright false (see stripping & track tires on one hand and “cool weather begging/morning-afternoon” and PTM disablement on the other). In the legal world this is called evidence tampering and dismissed. In the technical world is called test bias and is dismissed..

Republican/democrats..opinions…
NO, "fine printing stripping/OEM deletes" and downright omission of use of track tires AND deliberate misleading on regular CUP 2s (no wonder heads are spinning..lol) its not conspiracy theory; it is SIGNIFICANT.

All “evidence” around the GTs is simply goal seeking testing or in other words changing the surrounding testing protocols until the desired outcomes are reached. It is “Joey” taking the same test over and over until it passes..

No wonder, there are such huge findings/discrepancies between GTXRS video ring test cars and OEM cars at the same.
Truth is, after a year, the “GIG” is UP (shock and awe works until it doesn't). Even with all the Nurburing track smoothing/modifications to make it faster.. (aptly used by VW…gee how Smart!..)

At least in Germany.. (work with them extensively) it is widely accepted, stock GT cars need modding of either the car (see 350k GT2RS + 107K mantarey) OR modding of test conditions (trickery or leverage of track smoothing) to achieve sub 7s.
A stock Porsche GT car is a very fast car, just not the “uber” cars they are attempting (by hook or by crook/hammer it until it bleeds) to market.
IMHO, works for the rich naives..not so much for the car guys…


To believe the 3RS is not in the same league (or better) than the ZR1 is only accurate of going for a top speed run. The 3RS and 2RS are track built road cars, meant to run the same time lap after lap after lap...
On a 1.25 gallon (one nurb lap) spray tank!?…reeeight…!!

Cheers

P.S On your new GT3RS [COLOR=left=#333333]protracted announcements..(thank you!) soo.. Jan/Feb 19 for delivery and at least August 17 (first time I recall you posting GT3RS) is 17 months.. which is close enough to my 2 year hint..[/COLOR]

Last edited by Telepierre; 11-09-2018 at 04:16 AM.
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