Earl H

^This ^...Tuning the car is one thing, Tuning the car so that it actually performs better than the sheets, and keeps the driveline together, that will pop up...next big hurdle. Everybody wants 1000lb-ft at 2500 rpm until they have 1000lb-ft at 2500 rpm...lol. Either way, things should get pretty interesting. The 2650 is a beast...probably one of the few blowers that would have made me think twice before going turbo...

Mikec7z

Exactly, customer will go from begging for more power, to wanting to sue shops for letting their car leave the shop in a condition which would crack a torque tube or destroy a rear diff or half shaft...

and when the half shaft breaks, the car is forced into a hard left or hard right turn and into the wall at the local drag strip... or worse, an object/person on or next to a public road.

It will be interesting to see what all of the shops do next. I write these posts, not to taunt the shops, but instead to tell the consumers, be careful what you request and also be patient with the shops... and give them a break.

This is like programming the space shuttle at this point... its not easy by any means. Everyone needs to chill for a bit and learn what we are all up against so that we as a community can get this right as soon as possible, without any huge losses or mistakes.

RapidC84B

It's no different than any other big power build.... which has been done countless times. Only difference is you have a built motor and great blower direct from GM.

Mikec7z

the difference is the common sense level of the person who can now be in control of that power.

It used to be that if you had 1000ft/lbs of torque at the wheels by 2500rpm, you had spent some serious cash and were very afluent in the aftermarket/racing community.

It was a "known race car" and demanded respect.

If that car wrecked, people did not come after GM for answers, it was obvious it had been modified.

We are now in a new era when a tune can break half shafts aka, rear axles and send a car to kill its driver and others. GM will be investigated as a responsible party.

Now you have dads who bought a zr1, and their kid is surfing this forum, and say "dad!, we can get the zr1 tuned! now we can run a different pulley!"

and next thing you know a kid is behind the wheel of a "production car with a tune" that breaks a half shaft and kills the kid and someone else on the side of the road.

I put up my post for a reason, to make people think about what this all means now. We have more power at our right foot, with fewer mods, than ever before in history... of ANY PRODUCTION CAR EVER BEFORE ON PLANET EARTH... and that is a fact if you stop and think about it.

and theres about 2500 of these cars running around... if even 10% of them get a tune and go to 1000hp/tq, that's 250 cars that are now at power levels that....

break half shafts...

and used to only be owned by, more or less, professionals who understood and were scared of the power their cars were making.... there was a drama and a respect for what the car was...

now its just "hey, i got my corvette tuned yesterday, lets go to the drag strip and see if we can beat the mclaren 720"

and then, boom, a half shaft breaks and the 150 grand zr1 is totaled, and that is BEST case scenario... where no one died at a controlled track where car is kept away from trees and poles and buildings and other cars.

I write these posts for awareness. I dont think 95% of people here reading this have ever driven a car with 1000tq by 2500 rpm... so you might want to appreciate instead of downplay what im doing/saying right now by putting up these posts.

I personally know a person who died in a GTO crash at highway speeds when a simple hiway pull broke their half shaft, and off the road they went.

Here is another example:

RapidC84B

This is America... if I want 1,000 ft lbs of torque, then by George Washington, I can have it... speeds shops have liability waivers, if bozo crashes the car then it's on them. I just don't see this as an issue... most people willing to void the warranty on a $25K motor in a $140K car have a little bit of smarts.

Mikec7z

well, as much as i know you respect my intelligence and opinion

... lets play this another way...

once upon a time I (the person you like and admire so much) was a 16-19 year old kid, and my dad had a lingenfelter vette in the driveway.. and he spent more money on that car, than what its going to take to unlock a zr1 and tune it to 1000tq now,

and if you and your family grew up in my town and were out on the road at night, then like it or not, history says i blew by you at 180 on more nights than 1.

now lets rewind that and say a half shaft had broken.

Welcome to america, george washington says physics 101 indicates you and your family in your minivan/suv are now dead.

My point is.... people demanding the most power out of a tune or "the shop is not as good as the next shop"...

those shops need to take a stand and not let ANY car out of their shop with a tune without AT LEAST the half shafts being upgraded... because if they are not, WHEN one breaks, because it will....

WHEN one side breaks before the other (they don't break simultaneously folks)

WHEN one side breaks... that car is now a missile going 45-60 degrees right or left from the trajectory it was going just 0.2 seconds ago, and i don't care who the driver is, you WILL NOT be in control of the car, and if there is a person in your path, you will be hitting them.... and if there is a telephone pole in your path, it will be making friends with your flesh and bone and sending you to the hospital or the morgue.

RapidC84B

Lets not clutter up DSX's thread any further with a debate on personal responsibility.

Mikec7z

yeah, and when a 1000hp modded zr1 kills someone and makes the news, and GM gets put into the spotlight as a "halfshaft snapped" becomes the culprit, and Tadge defends that this is why they tried to lock the ECU, and the govt makes tuning cars illegal from that point forward, a felony offense...

because we are very close to that point...

... ill rewind and say, "im glad i was silenced by Tool Hoarder, who couldn't think 4 inches in front of his face into the future of what happens next and was highly offended by my simple posts asking people to think about all the aspects of what is going on right now, while the shops make progress on the tune."

But, ive made my points, so the thread can go back to a shop being coaxed by people who have never had 1000lbs of torque in an automobile, those folks can chastise a shop if its numbers aren't as high or higher than the next shop's.

People need to step back for a second and understand the torque this blower makes.... stock... once its been tuned.

That's all im saying.

Numbers capable of braking your zr1's half shafts (rear axles) , are an easy task for this STOCK blower without ANY other mods whatsoever to the zr1... once its been tuned, and if the torque is not LIMITED in the tune, it WILL break your half shafts, its not a matter of IF its a matter of WHEN.

And will your car be pointed at another human being or a pole or a mountain road cliff when that shaft snaps. People need to start researching upgraded half shaft prices... and make sure they have those bought before they pony up for "just a tune".... we are in a new era where "just a tune" equals what 2 bottles of NOZ used to.

RapidC84B

Your premise is stupid... I could go see Hector and get two tanks on Noz before race wars and do the same thing in pretty much any car. :

Mikec7z

i used to think you were wise, i no longer do. Have a good day. See ya buddy.

RapidC84B

What do you want? Tuners to refuse to tune ZR1s for the "good of humanity" because and owner might be dumb?

Mikec7z

what do I want?...

.... i wanted to write a post..

which asked people to be careful moving forward and appreciate each other's efforts but also understand there will be tradeoff's to the big power numbers we seek...

... so that people surfing this forum have something more to think about, and understand the consequences of what happens WHEN their half shaft breaks on one side or the other of their stock zr1 with an aftermarket tune.

... i wanted to write a post...

which asks shops to think twice before they let a zr1 with "only a tune" and 800+ rwtq, out of their bay doors since the average customer says...

"I do not have anymore money, and I need a job done for X price or im going to the competitor's shop for the tune instead!",

... the shops need encouragement not to cave and not let a zr1 out of their bay doors if they know the half shafts have NOT been upgraded.

the torque tube and the rear diff and trans, im not so worried about... if those snap... the car should still be going in the same direction it was 5 seconds ago.

When the half shafts snap... the car takes a 60 degree turn in less than a second when 1000hp and torque are at play, only powering 1 wheel on one side.

... and i guess in a perfect world, i wished there were more people like Earl H, who says, "he's right"

Instead of Tools who come along and think this is a good time to try to belittle me and say that im the one out of line right now, and think that siting george washington is going to KEEP their rights when one of these cars kill someone from a snapped half shaft, and then the game is over when GM lobbys the Govt (which they are already in the process of doing) to make any and all aftermarket tunes illegal and a FELONY for shops to facilitate.

I bet that hurts the pocketbook of tuners a lot more than my post will. Im suggesting people buy upgraded half shafts and think twice before they seek the largest power number.

And you think its a good time to tell me im wrong in front of random internet readers who may be here to do research on what they should do to their zr1 and have no knowledge like you and I have.

Bravo wise intelligent creature.... "im wrong, you are right, my posts were pointless, and useful to no one, thank you for telling me they should not be here since you dont like them"... ill say that

instead of you say...
"mike is right, never before in automotive history has a TUNE ALONE been enough to break rear axle half shafts on a production vehicle... we are in a new era, and its worth a discussion on an internet forum while the tuners tune, if nothing else, to at least bring awareness to people who may not understand how much torque the unlocked lt5 makes just yet, and what happens to the car when certain things snap from that torque."

Happy?

MustOBeenYellow2015Z

Dude, honestly a stock ZR1 demands respect. I mean I started to spin the rears in fourth gear. I noticed though since its gotten warmer out that it hooks up a lot better. The ZR1 is still imo more secure to drive than a Z06/7. It seems the ZR1 isn't as snappy as the Z07/7. I have also noticed though that when accelerating hard out of a turn the rear end will torque steer because of the rubber bushings in the lowers. I'm going to change them over to steel monoballs.

Mikec7z

I agree

i dont think a lot of people realize, GM could have easily made the zr1 750/750 like they did the z06 at 650 650...

but instead GM deliberately keeps the torque in check by bleeding boost via the internal BOV, because the half shafts break at levels even slightly higher in torque

The spooky part is this....

most people aren't going to have big tall sidewall drag tires on the rear of their "tuned zr1's"

so, seems like a good thing, right? Car peels out in 1st 2nd 3rd, and even 4th as the user above describes...

but the zr1 has a big wing on the back, which creates downforce. Downforce equals traction.

So, guess when the half shaft FINALLY feels the 800+ torque which can snap it?

When a person is at WOT at 120mph+ and the car gets grip for the first time. The faster the car goes, the more grip it gets suddenly (for the average person with normal street tires)

Car finally hooks up, and the shaft snaps on one side.

I would guarantee no one on this planet would keep control of a zr1, when the half shaft breaks during a WOT pull at anything over 100mph, while on a 6 lane hiway with no other cars on the road... every zr1 driver in this situation will be into a drift, facing the median or facing into the woods, before their reactions times are able to order their right foot to let off the gas pedal.

And as for all the 1000hp builds over the years... look at their low end torque...its not over 800tq usually. This lt5 blower is a new animal.

I'll be quiet now, i said what i needed to say

I should have mentioned the PI as well, i am spoiled in the regard that I converse with one of the first guys in the PI world on these cars.... his thoughts are that the pro-active traction control of torque management and also re-active traction control, as well as all the things i described in my first post... put turning this thing correctly/well into a realm which will separate the pack of tuners.

I believe you guys will do great if HP tuners was confident in selecting your shop for zr1 tune testing.

Bigjsn250

The shafts can handle much more than 800, do you know how many of us have 800-1300hp c6zr1's with stock half shafts?? Do you think they made the half shafts weaker with a more powerful engine? Have you ever seen a car break an axle at 100mph? I have, you can search you tube and find a few in 5 minutes. The shaft breaks, the person lets off and the car coasts to a stop. Your posts are wordy, but lack real world experience.

Mikec7z

I almost did not respond since i know this will go nowhere fast with you, on the mere fact that you used the word 1300HORSE POWER... but since others are here to learn, for their sake, ill talk...

horse power never broke a thing. Indy cars make plenty of HP, but they make very little torque, and that is why they have tiny thin axles that would snap if you attached them to a vehicle with torque and pulled something like a boat.

I'll go a step further, torque above 3000 rpm does not usually break anything.

What breaks things is that dig deep torque at 3000rpm and below.

Would you be so kind to direct me to the cars who make 800+Tq at the rear wheels by 2500rpm and even 1500rpm, on stock axles? ... because a lt5 with just a pulley and a tune easily will. Without a pulley it may even, once tuned.

So... sorry about all my words... i use them to try to be clear the first time... and if you pay attention above, in past posts, i already explained the typical 1000 and 1300 hp builds dont make big torque, and when they do, its at its peak well past the 3000 rpm mark, and prior to 3000 rpm, its no where near 800ft,lb

You ask if ive been in a car when an axle breaks, and the answer is yes, and im glad i was not going that fast when it happened.

You ask if i know anyone in real life who has had it happen... yes, someone who i know was a pretty great driver, died from it happening to him, on the hiway.

Meanwhile, skilled drivers on this forum have put c7z's into the wall with STOCK z06 power levels at the strip, after they broke their STOCK half shaft on the passenger side due to STICKY TIRES AND TORQUE.

As for your comment about "plenty of cars on youtube braking axles, and no drama"...

..If a 400 torque 500hp car brakes an axle, you are right, its not usually a drama, because the remaining tire has enough grip to handle the 400/500 levels of power usually. Nor, are any of your cars going 120 when they brake the axle now are they?

But now, lets use our imaginations what happens when a zr1... which was braking its tires loose just moments before at slower speeds, finally gets grip at 120mph because of the big rear wing, and it has 2 TIRES transferring that power to the pavement....

what happens when 800 torque and 1000hp all the sudden are only directed to 1 tire? (half the grip) I'll give you a hint so we aren't here all day while your brain processes, the answer is the tire breaks loose.... and as it brakes loose, it spins the car since it is only pushing on 1 side, and all of this happens a nano second after the other side axle/shaft snaps at WOT.

Let me know when you have the guts to be in a zr1 going 120mph with 900 torque and HP, and ill be sitting on the sideline with a remote control that, when i push a big red button, it disconnects one of your half shafts, and now all the power is put onto 1 tire while you are at WOT at 120mph+.

Let me know when you are ready to play that game, im sure it would make for good youtube viewing.... it will start out with you explaining how i have no clue what im talking about, and me simply saying "test time folks"

Lets make sure you are in a car you have paid for and are on an empty road with a forest of trees on both sides, that way i dont have to hear you try to talk your way out of why this situation was different than the situation i explained on the forum... when you finally find out you will spin out of control more often than not unless luck is on your side... but we will run the game enough times to where your luck runs out.

I'll have you sign a waiver, that way its all okay on my end with your family who realizes i already knew the outcome of the experiment, as Tool Hoarder so kindly pointed out. (PS, this does not stop people from TRYING to sue you or I... it just means they don't get very far once they do... go back and read my words that i wrote the first time Tool Hoarder, you might see that im aware that shops used waivers, but they don't keep bad incidents from making the news and people filing lawsuits now do they? Nor does it keep victims families from suing GM... and GM making tuning illegal with the Governments help soon after that public lawsuit. Neat how many steps ahead my brain was huh?)

Thanks for all the deep thought before a few of you counter and speak.

Quiky One

Why in the world is anyone complaining about this? I think it’s awesome. It’s expensive of course. This is the first step in being able to successfully modify and tune the new LT5 platform.

For the people wanting numbers, they don’t understand how tuning works. No tune will make the same horsepower as another one. This just enables you to maximize the current modifications on the car.

Kudos guys. To all involved.

meadowz06

What other people do with their money, is their business!

Detoxx03

I’ve never seen half shafts mentioned so much in my life.

Stop ruining a perfectly good thread.

Looking forward to future results Dave.

Rinaldo Catria