Bob Lutz Thinks Chevy Should Build a Mid-Engine 'Vette
01-16-2015, 03:01 PM
#41
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
GM has a ridiculously awesome opportunity here. Ford dropped the ball with the GT. Dont get me wrong the Gt is impressive even with it's lame EcoBoost V6, but it's not a Ford. you can put the badge on the car but it's just not a Ford. Nothing in the entire Ford lineup shares anything with this car, this is an exotic, a dream, a unicorn. What's worse is that due to the original FGT's increase in value due to collectors and limited production, this new FGT will be even more scarce and expensive and the people buying this car will likely be collectors of automobiles, not drivers of automobiles. It's a car that caters to the 1% (not that that's a bad thing) but it will have pretty much zero impact on the automobile landscape.
Yup it uses a lot of CF.
Yup it uses some "greenie" powerplant
Yup it's super light.
But exclusivity and cost make this car about as relatable as a Ferrari, as in the regular Joe consumer will look at it and go, "That's pretty nice" and move on.
This is where GM can capitalize beyond anything the C7 could do. If GM released a mid engined, V8 powered, supercar performing car at about the current Z06 price point, while maintaining an interior quality at the C7 level... they would break the world. Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, etc. while already paying attention to the C7 and Z06 would literally have to react to something like what I proposed. Alfa Romeo has proven that you can build a CF monocoque chassis cheaply enough to offer it in a car costing ~$60k.
GM investing in CF research and development would also yield benefits in the rest of their lineup as CF is useful in lowering weight resulting in better Eco figures. GM should also offer both a manual and a DCT auto. The number of "purists" that would flock to a mid-engined, manual transmission sports car would make peoples heads spin since all of the current exotics are DCT only. A car like this would literally shake the auto industry.
But the reality is that this won't happen, GM if it is making a mid engined car, will likely price it too high to matter on anything but a limited scale.
Yup it uses a lot of CF.
Yup it uses some "greenie" powerplant
Yup it's super light.
But exclusivity and cost make this car about as relatable as a Ferrari, as in the regular Joe consumer will look at it and go, "That's pretty nice" and move on.
This is where GM can capitalize beyond anything the C7 could do. If GM released a mid engined, V8 powered, supercar performing car at about the current Z06 price point, while maintaining an interior quality at the C7 level... they would break the world. Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, etc. while already paying attention to the C7 and Z06 would literally have to react to something like what I proposed. Alfa Romeo has proven that you can build a CF monocoque chassis cheaply enough to offer it in a car costing ~$60k.
GM investing in CF research and development would also yield benefits in the rest of their lineup as CF is useful in lowering weight resulting in better Eco figures. GM should also offer both a manual and a DCT auto. The number of "purists" that would flock to a mid-engined, manual transmission sports car would make peoples heads spin since all of the current exotics are DCT only. A car like this would literally shake the auto industry.
But the reality is that this won't happen, GM if it is making a mid engined car, will likely price it too high to matter on anything but a limited scale.
01-16-2015, 03:08 PM
#42
Tadge (Top Corvette Engineer) basically said in a statement recently that GM left everything on the table with the new Z06, and indicated there is no plan for a C7 ZR1 or mid engine corvette.
I think people are getting thier hopes up for nothing.
I think people are getting thier hopes up for nothing.
01-16-2015, 03:58 PM
#44
The Ford guys already said indicated the new GT will be sold in “Selective” markets…read between the lines, those that are going to buy one can also afford the 458 Italia I would say. Corvette was built on the hard working “Joe” being able to buy a car with great performance, reasonable price and insurable. As a Z06 owner, I can say there is a mental line to cross at the 100K barrier for a car. The new Z06 is pushing this line in my mind, so the question is not can I afford the car, but do I want to afford the car, particularly with the heat problems. SO, if Chevrolet is trying to market to Corvette enthusiasts, this will not be the car that you will see driving down the road….trailer queen and investors will own the car, not enthusiasts at 200K or above in my opinion…..you have too many other choices at that point. Heck, the average per capita household income with a family of 4 is only around 52K…do the math.
01-16-2015, 04:42 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
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Lutz did bring the Viper to life, over at Dodge.....
The GT40 wasn't a sells success, nor was the Shelby Cobra. or the ZL1 corvettes. I bet everyguy on this site would love to have one now.......
I think it is a great idea..... Just hope that is not it..... because that car is ugly.
Make it look like a 458, and its a winner
The GT40 wasn't a sells success, nor was the Shelby Cobra. or the ZL1 corvettes. I bet everyguy on this site would love to have one now.......
I think it is a great idea..... Just hope that is not it..... because that car is ugly.
Make it look like a 458, and its a winner
01-16-2015, 04:50 PM
#46
Mid engine
As long as the styling cues look like a Stingray Corvette then all is good. I like many do not like the rear tailights on the new Stingray. No matter if the car is more "square" or hard edged that is a the historical, traditional look of their tail lights. I have a 97 and it was a departure from the stingray of old but it still has many styling cues of old. . Sweeping fenders and round tail lights please! The Stingray or Zora should never go the way of a Lambo look or Ferrari. Distinctively Traditional Corvette Stingray ( Zora) American Unique look!
120,000.00? Seriously. Now that will really take it out of the reach of any middle class guy that could save for one. Amazing how the economy is not good and more people have less and these guys go up in price? I cannot believe the stupidity of industry today. These cars should be tough brutish machines with less electronic luxury crap. Go back to the roots of what this car is intended. Really when you are ripping through gears blowing away a Porsche at twice the money that is what we want. Are you looking at your backup Camera racing a guy from a stoplight?
**** they can build massive Dually Trucks with all the creature comforts for less than 100K.
120,000.00? Seriously. Now that will really take it out of the reach of any middle class guy that could save for one. Amazing how the economy is not good and more people have less and these guys go up in price? I cannot believe the stupidity of industry today. These cars should be tough brutish machines with less electronic luxury crap. Go back to the roots of what this car is intended. Really when you are ripping through gears blowing away a Porsche at twice the money that is what we want. Are you looking at your backup Camera racing a guy from a stoplight?
**** they can build massive Dually Trucks with all the creature comforts for less than 100K.
Last edited by jarnold; 01-16-2015 at 04:58 PM.
01-16-2015, 05:19 PM
#48
Melting Slicks
The Ford GT at $170k was a complete success - they sold everyone the limited production run made. Ferrari and Bugatti sells every one of its cars too.
01-16-2015, 05:22 PM
#49
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Build it as a cadillac and keep Corvette in its bread and butter price range.
Making the Corvette mid-engine now would be like making a 911 front engined. Making the Corvette a six figure car? None of it makes sense. The more expensive mid-engine car should be under the Cadillac Brand. They will have to improve every aspect (fit, finish, interior materials, etc.) at that price point.
GM unveiled a mid-engine supercar a few years back...the Cadillac Cien.
Build it but market it as a Cadillac. It is the right thing to do on every count.
GM unveiled a mid-engine supercar a few years back...the Cadillac Cien.
Build it but market it as a Cadillac. It is the right thing to do on every count.
01-16-2015, 05:25 PM
#50
Drifting
It seems many on here either can't read, didn't read the full article or just choose to ignore what is written. This is said it's not replacing the C7, it would be offered along side the current front engine version. Yet so many on here are commenting in the $120k price tag. How much was a ZR1? Was that for everyone? No.
Guys quit flipping out, if they do this you will still have your "traditional" corvette to buy.
As far as the price is concerned. Everyone wants all off the bells and whistles, yet wants it to be priced too low. If this happens it is going to be a limited production car with a higher price tag. And if they can sell it for under $150k they will sell everyone they make, very quickly.
As for thd commenter who said that these will all become investor garage queens, I defer. I put about 36k miles on my Gallardo when I had it in about 3 years. I already have a deposit on a mid engine version and plan to drive the hell out of it.
Guys quit flipping out, if they do this you will still have your "traditional" corvette to buy.
As far as the price is concerned. Everyone wants all off the bells and whistles, yet wants it to be priced too low. If this happens it is going to be a limited production car with a higher price tag. And if they can sell it for under $150k they will sell everyone they make, very quickly.
As for thd commenter who said that these will all become investor garage queens, I defer. I put about 36k miles on my Gallardo when I had it in about 3 years. I already have a deposit on a mid engine version and plan to drive the hell out of it.
01-16-2015, 09:17 PM
#51
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St. Jude Donor'15
I agree with Bob....let's do this.
01-16-2015, 09:39 PM
#52
PS: Yes, yes, we're all well aware that Bob Lutz was a Marine pilot in the reserve. Did he actually ever see combat action? I honestly don't know enough about him to answer.
Last edited by Xanthophyll; 01-16-2015 at 09:45 PM.
01-16-2015, 10:49 PM
#53
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on the subject of the Mid-Engine Corvette and Mr. Lutz, Hell yea! Any thing looks better than this doggie thing called A C-7!!!!! It even has the right kind of Corvette tail lights! For the love of GOD Chevy go for it! Even bring back the Corvair would be better than the C-7.
01-16-2015, 11:09 PM
#54
[QUOTE=arnolds64;1588736334]As long as the styling cues look like a Stingray Corvette then all is good. I like many do not like the rear tailights on the new Stingray. No matter if the car is more "square" or hard edged that is a the historical, traditional look of their tail lights. I have a 97 and it was a departure from the stingray of old but it still has many styling cues of old. . Sweeping fenders and round tail lights please! The Stingray or Zora should never go the way of a Lambo look or Ferrari. Distinctively Traditional Corvette Stingray ( Zora) American Unique look!
THANK YOU!! Could not agree more. PLEASE GM, enough with Camaro tail lights already, get back to making the Corvette look 100% Corvette...RETURN THE FOUR ROUND TAIL LIGHTS, the Glassback hatch (much better visibility and a lighter more open cabin) and to really ice the cake, bring back hidden/deployable headlights.
And definitely retain the traditional Shark shape, respecting more than a half century of Corvette tradition and the iconic styling cues that visually make a Corvette a Corvette, even while improving the car and moving it ever further forward in performance and capability.
THANK YOU!! Could not agree more. PLEASE GM, enough with Camaro tail lights already, get back to making the Corvette look 100% Corvette...RETURN THE FOUR ROUND TAIL LIGHTS, the Glassback hatch (much better visibility and a lighter more open cabin) and to really ice the cake, bring back hidden/deployable headlights.
And definitely retain the traditional Shark shape, respecting more than a half century of Corvette tradition and the iconic styling cues that visually make a Corvette a Corvette, even while improving the car and moving it ever further forward in performance and capability.
01-16-2015, 11:41 PM
#55
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St. Jude Donor '12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
THANK YOU!! Could not agree more. PLEASE GM, enough with Camaro tail lights already, get back to making the Corvette look 100% Corvette...RETURN THE FOUR ROUND TAIL LIGHTS, the Glassback hatch (much better visibility and a lighter more open cabin) and to really ice the cake, bring back hidden/deployable headlights.
01-18-2015, 06:34 PM
#56
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I remember the mid-engine Corvette making covers of R&T and C&D back in the late 1970's. Mr. Lutz didn't seem to agree back in those days. If GM wants to really make a new Corvette, design a car for the next 50 years and not for the last 40 - and DON'T name it "Zora". I'm sure that there are better ways to honor Mr. Duntov. Tribute names are not good. Just ask Ford.
01-18-2015, 06:54 PM
#57
Melting Slicks
What Bob Lutz has forgotten about the automobile is how to build a profitable one. His AU GTO's, Solstice/Skys, Vipers, Volts, and other pet projects were all big money losers. Only thing Lutz makes money for is himself and then he bails just before companies he leads go bankrupt like Exide and then GM in order to protect his own pensions.
I don't need to read the egomaniac's biography to get to know what he's done or who he is because I've read enough of his actual quotes and seen the results of the projects he has championed to make the call that Lutz is an outright idiot.
I don't need to read the egomaniac's biography to get to know what he's done or who he is because I've read enough of his actual quotes and seen the results of the projects he has championed to make the call that Lutz is an outright idiot.
One of the car magazine did a short review of Lutz book "Car guys vs Bean Counters". I took offense and wrote a letter to the magazine saying blaming accountants for GM's bankruptcy was like saying the Yankees lost the world series because of the score keeper. My letter was recognized at the letter of the month.
Every vehicle line must make money for the shareholders to keep the company alive. If it's not profitable, something is wrong. Engineers and their managers must understand they don't have an unlimited budget. When a car doesn't make a profit too often they lay the blame on the bean counter. They don't manage the company. Guys like Lutz managed GM.
Last edited by RussM05; 01-18-2015 at 07:27 PM.
01-18-2015, 07:39 PM
#58
Melting Slicks
[QUOTE=Red1990VT;1588738850]
THANK YOU!! Could not agree more. PLEASE GM, enough with Camaro tail lights already, get back to making the Corvette look 100% Corvette...RETURN THE FOUR ROUND TAIL LIGHTS, the Glassback hatch (much better visibility and a lighter more open cabin) and to really ice the cake, bring back hidden/deployable headlights.
And definitely retain the traditional Shark shape, respecting more than a half century of Corvette tradition and the iconic styling cues that visually make a Corvette a Corvette, even while improving the car and moving it ever further forward in performance and capability.
Round tail lights, glass hatch back, and pop up head lights are dead. Move on.... If you want a 1980 Corvette, go buy one. The C7 ain't for you.
The auto industry is littered with failed car company's that didn't change and thought they understood what the market wanted. Perfect example was the last Thunderbird model. Demand for retro styling dies quickly. History shows that to be true.
The Corvette sales dropped from 35,000 to 40,000 to around 13,000 in the last few years. Something had to happen or the brand would die.
The competition is fierce. They had to created a clean sheet of paper design. And keep the price in the current range. Demand for sports cars priced over $80,000 is not great. GM hit the bulls eye with the C7. The European exotic sports car manufacturers have taken notice.
THANK YOU!! Could not agree more. PLEASE GM, enough with Camaro tail lights already, get back to making the Corvette look 100% Corvette...RETURN THE FOUR ROUND TAIL LIGHTS, the Glassback hatch (much better visibility and a lighter more open cabin) and to really ice the cake, bring back hidden/deployable headlights.
And definitely retain the traditional Shark shape, respecting more than a half century of Corvette tradition and the iconic styling cues that visually make a Corvette a Corvette, even while improving the car and moving it ever further forward in performance and capability.
The auto industry is littered with failed car company's that didn't change and thought they understood what the market wanted. Perfect example was the last Thunderbird model. Demand for retro styling dies quickly. History shows that to be true.
The Corvette sales dropped from 35,000 to 40,000 to around 13,000 in the last few years. Something had to happen or the brand would die.
The competition is fierce. They had to created a clean sheet of paper design. And keep the price in the current range. Demand for sports cars priced over $80,000 is not great. GM hit the bulls eye with the C7. The European exotic sports car manufacturers have taken notice.
01-18-2015, 08:41 PM
#59
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[QUOTE=RussM05;1588751171]
Round tail lights, glass hatch back, and pop up head lights are dead. Move on.... If you want a 1980 Corvette, go buy one. The C7 ain't for you.
The auto industry is littered with failed car company's that didn't change and thought they understood what the market wanted. Perfect example was the last Thunderbird model. Demand for retro styling dies quickly. History shows that to be true.
The Corvette sales dropped from 35,000 to 40,000 to around 13,000 in the last few years. Something had to happen or the brand would die.
The competition is fierce. They had to created a clean sheet of paper design. And keep the price in the current range. Demand for sports cars priced over $80,000 is not great. GM hit the bulls eye with the C7. The European exotic sports car manufacturers have taken notice.
C6 sales did drop in 2009, along with nearly all high-end sports car sales, which were attributed to a combination of the recession and the C6's "derivative" style of the more successful C5 model. The Bowling Green plant shut down for half of 2013 so that year's sales can be omitted from comparisons. The current C7 sales are on par with typical C5 sales, as implied. While the C7 is the "best" overall Corvette by consensus, C2, early C3 and C5 owners can legitimately argue that when it comes to style, the newest Vette is different but not necessarily better looking. Long live round tail lights and pop-up head lamps! 
Round tail lights, glass hatch back, and pop up head lights are dead. Move on.... If you want a 1980 Corvette, go buy one. The C7 ain't for you.
The auto industry is littered with failed car company's that didn't change and thought they understood what the market wanted. Perfect example was the last Thunderbird model. Demand for retro styling dies quickly. History shows that to be true.
The Corvette sales dropped from 35,000 to 40,000 to around 13,000 in the last few years. Something had to happen or the brand would die.
The competition is fierce. They had to created a clean sheet of paper design. And keep the price in the current range. Demand for sports cars priced over $80,000 is not great. GM hit the bulls eye with the C7. The European exotic sports car manufacturers have taken notice.
01-18-2015, 09:08 PM
#60
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
What? ?? ^^^ Bad sales sometimes necessitates shutting down a plant for part of year. That doesn't mean the year's sales are omitted from comparisons. It means the year's sales were lousy, no matter how you look at it, and for whatever reason. No excuses, sales stunk. Period.
