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"Not an opinion...fact..." I don't believe and would like to see your facts. An example of facts would be published track times in say a Lamborghini, Porsche or an Audi R8, lap times with AWD on, lap times with AWD off.
Anything less is no facts at all, just OPINION.
Good job...come up with an impossible scenario (cutting off the AWD on AWD cars) to make your point. Here's the best I can do in terms of an apples/apples comparison.
September 2008, tests at the Nurburgring, conducted by Porsche (Walter R. driving?), noted that the cars were stock with stock tires: GT2 ran 7:34, 911 Turbo ran 7:38, make of it what you will.
And, closer to home, the Laguna Seca production car lap record belongs to a front engine/rear drive car (Viper ACR), 1.2 seconds a lap faster than the 918 Spyder (11 car lengths as pointed out by Motor Trend). This is more telling as the same driver was in both cars (Randy Pobst), it was his own record (in the 918) that he broke in the new ACR.
I guess Porsche should fit Pilot SS C2's to the Turbo then. Since they don't (and don't offer them as an option), that doesn't matter.
We are talking about street cars as they are equipped from the factory, right?
I'll take that tire selection excuse as an admission that you didn't know that facts and that you agree with Porsche's head of the 911 program that their AWD 911s are as fast (if not faster) as their RWD 911s on a track, and faster everywhere else.
The mid-engine AWD Porsche 918 smashes all cars mentioned, so your theory has been refuted.
I'm looking forward to this mid-engine Corvette in the spy shots and the AWD that a mid-engine layout would easily allow.
I'll take that tire selection excuse as an admission that you didn't know that facts and that you agree with Porsche's head of the 911 program that their AWD 911s are as fast (if not faster) as their RWD 911s on a track, and faster everywhere else.
The mid-engine AWD Porsche 918 smashes all cars mentioned, so you're point has been refuted.
I'm looking forward to this mid-engine Corvette in the spy shots and the AWD that a mid-engine layout would easily allow.
Again....Porsche should fit Pilot SSC2's to the Turbo then. As equipped, from the factory, the GT2 is faster around a track than a 911 Turbo, so it's the 911 head's excuse, NOT MINE. I couldn't care less.
As far as the 918 smashing all these cars, maybe it smashes other Porsches, but in California, at Laguna Seca, with the same guy driving, the 918 is 1.2 seconds SLOWER than the 2016 Viper ACR. What's "your" answer to that?
Again....Porsche should fit Pilot SSC2's to the Turbo then. As equipped, from the factory, the GT2 is faster around a track than a 911 Turbo, so it's the 911 head's excuse, NOT MINE. I couldn't care less.
As far as the 918 smashing all these cars, maybe it smashes other Porsches, but in California, at Laguna Seca, with the same guy driving, the 918 is 1.2 seconds SLOWER than the 2016 Viper ACR. What's "your" answer to that?
And it is "your", not "you're"
You know a guy has failed in his argument and surrendered when he resorts to discussing your grammar.
The money GM is saving with this free social media advertising should be used to hire new engineers and get rid of the old school ideas that rear wheel drive is here to stay. The car industry is moving on and the Corvette is stuck in a rut and all the engineers worry about is uncontrollable horsepower because that is their market.
I'll take that tire selection excuse as an admission that you didn't know that facts and that you agree with Porsche's head of the 911 program that their AWD 911s are as fast (if not faster) as their RWD 911s on a track, and faster everywhere else.
The mid-engine AWD Porsche 918 smashes all cars mentioned, so your theory has been refuted.
I'm looking forward to this mid-engine Corvette in the spy shots and the AWD that a mid-engine layout would easily allow.
Here are some facts. The 918 does not smash all cars mentioned.
It only seems to do better at the tracks that have the longer straights. The car has 225Hp more than the Z06 *875 vs. 650), 309 ft*lbs more Tq (944 vs 635) and gives up only 93lbs in weight (3616 vs 3523) so it better accelerate on those straights. (ACR is 654 HP/640 ft*lbs/3413 lbs)
So given these numbers the 918 should own the lesser vehicles and yet the RWD ACR beats it on 3 tracks and the Z06 beats it @ VIR. But I guess the AWD 918 was just out for a Sunday stroll those days.
We understand that the 918 is the better drag car from a standing start because of the AWD, but as has been mentioned, the AWD advantage is not as significant on the track. Oh, and have a look at the 2015 GTR ... not doing so well in coparison.
Track times play to the strengths of certain cars, but your stance is that AWD trumps all and the facts prove you are mistaken.
Yup.
Keep telling yourself whatever you want to hear.
Just like guys will be claiming front engine is superior, even after a mid-engine Corvette is released.
With all due repspect, you're wrong.
Please see above.
Although, I would never deny others the choice of a SLOWER "track edition" with RWD.
Based on what, exactly? Even that 911 Turbo you love to bring up is *slower* around a track than a base 911 GT3 (not even the RS) despite being up 100 hp and having AWD...
The only thing AWD helps you with is accelerating through/out of corners, which is a relatively small part of what gets you around a track quickly in the grand scheme of things. Accelerating at speed in a straight line, braking, and cornering are far more important in combination, and AWD generally hurts all those things.
I mean look at the fastest 'Ring times... The fastest two times are on a RWD car. Look at F1, or practically every other racing class. Yeah, AWD can be stupid fast thanks to the NASA computers that modern cars sometimes have on board, but even then, often times those advantages are minimized by similar technology (and, again, better balance and weight) in RWD cars.
EDIT: I should mention one other type of race where AWD obviously has an advantage... Rally racing. No argument there. But on the tarmac, the ability to oversteer a bit more easily with RWD is actually an *advantage*.
Originally Posted by 20171LE
Yup.
Keep telling yourself whatever you want to hear.
Just like guys will be claiming front engine is superior, even after a mid-engine Corvette is released.
Based on what, exactly? Even that 911 Turbo you love to bring up is *slower* around a track than a base 911 GT3 (not even the RS) despite being up 100 hp and having AWD...
Please try to READ, and stop spreading BS.
Porsche executive in charge of 911 has admitted, in print, that the Turbo is as fast a the GT3 on the same tires, on the same track.
As much as you want to lie to yourself, AWD remains superior to RWD.
Since you can't accept reality, why not just drop the subject?
Yup.
Keep telling yourself whatever you want to hear.
Just like guys will be claiming front engine is superior, even after a mid-engine Corvette is released.
Having an issue with reading comprehension I see.
I provided times for common tracks where both the 918 and ACR ran and the ACR (a RWD car with less HP and Tq) has better times. You throw back the ring where there is currently no official time for the ACR.
I also acknowledge that certain tracks play to the setups of certain cars.
The data on asphalt tracks shows that AWD does not have the significant advantages you state.
So who is telling their self what they want to hear?
Please provide comparable data and facts instead of opinion.
I think at this point Heidecker and his monster Ford GT (rear/mid engine/rear wheel drive) owns every 1/2 mile and standing mile record in the country. He certainly holds all the major ones.
I think his best 1/2 mph is 217, the record is 240.
Originally Posted by 20171LE
I guess you've never heard of the mid-engine, AWD, Porsche 918 that RAPES Corvette on a track.
AWD is NOT a crutch...its making use of all the technology in new cars to greatly increase performance over rear wheel drive only cars. That is why Bugatti Veyron, Lamborghini, Porche, Audi R8, Acura NSX are AWD. And three more super car manufacturers plan to add AWD including Ferrari.
The AWD is mostly to get the power down to the wheels and to help with cornering.
It is a crutch, one you need when you get to a certain amount of HP, like a Bugatti. The rest of the cars could make due without it.
Just look at the reviews of the latest Lambo, the RWD version with less HP is lauded as the better "drivers car" versus the AWD version because you have to "work" for your lap times. AWD makes things "easy." Now one could argue like Stability Control it's better to have the help than not have it, but that doesn't change the fact that its still a crutch (like many other driver aiding technology).
You've obviously never driven a 911 Turbo or Audi R8, or been to a 1/2 mile event.
Read CAR Magazines review of the R8 versus the McLaren 675LT (I think could be the one below that) and the Ferrari 488, they rank the R8 third. A big reason is the AWD, they do say however if you want to drive the car in the wet, and in the cold, choose the R8 but from a "pure performance" standpoint AWD is bad.
Having an issue with reading comprehension I see.
I provided times for common tracks where both the 918 and ACR ran and the ACR (a RWD car with less HP and Tq) has better times. You throw back the ring where there is currently no official time for the ACR.
I also acknowledge that certain tracks play to the setups of certain cars.
The data on asphalt tracks shows that AWD does not have the significant advantages you state.
So who is telling their self what they want to hear?
Please provide comparable data and facts instead of opinion.
hey, hey HEY...that will be enough with the facts, mister.
This is the internet....jeez
06-28-2016, 08:42 PM
AWD is NOT a crutch...its making use of all the technology in new cars to greatly increase performance over rear wheel drive only cars. That is why Bugatti Veyron, Lamborghini, Porche, Audi R8, Acura NSX are AWD. And three more super car manufacturers plan to add AWD including Ferrari.