For those who think dual clutch transmissions are coming to Corvette, think again....
04-28-2017, 10:57 AM
#21
Team Owner
In keeping with the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality that we now have, stop watches will be banned, and all the car manufacturers just say that they are "happy" with their car.
04-28-2017, 11:22 AM
#22
The Consigliere
Member Since: May 2006
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Tadge & co. just announced at the Bash - for what it's worth - there will be no DCT or A10 for the C7.
Last edited by OnPoint; 04-28-2017 at 11:39 AM.
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BOBSZ06 (04-29-2017)
04-28-2017, 05:16 PM
#23
^^^ IMO, not necessarily a bad thing.
If the A8 is improved a bit, it would be just fine for the C7.
If the A8 is improved a bit, it would be just fine for the C7.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 05-08-2017 at 11:16 PM.
04-28-2017, 07:10 PM
#24
Team Owner
^^^ I doubt that they would put an A10 or a DCT into the final couple of years left in the C7, even if they could. All it would do is steal some of the "new" from the C8 and/or the mid engine car.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 05-08-2017 at 11:17 PM.
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sunsalem (04-28-2017)
05-07-2017, 09:37 AM
#25
Race Director
And when Mercedes gets the 'fine tuning' completed, the GT R will still be faster than the 2015 Z06 which was running the Ring in Sept, 2014(before it was released for production) that has never had it's time posed(nor it's video) that the ever truthful Tadge said they were "happy" with and would "soon" have a video released(that was two years ago I believe) of their "happy" run on the Ring. LOMFAO.
To sum up:
1. Mercedes posted a time for a car that won't be released for 16 months!
2. Chevrolet never posted a time for a car that had just BEEN released, honoring the track ban at the time.
3. We got it that you don't like Tadge, the C7, teddy bears, whatever. But man, your never ending negative crap is just tiresome. And your lack of actual fact checking is just lazy, but I guess that's the way in America these days.....if you say it, IT must be true.
4. And last: Tadge DID say they would release a time and they never did, so that's on him. To ASSUME that the time wasn't released because the time wasn't "good" enough to suit all the bench racers when it could be that he was over-ruled because the time was obtained when, by the track rules of the time, shouldn't have been achieved at all is something we'll never know. I don't KNOW that answer, I also KNOW that YOU don't KNOW it either. Another example of people like you making a 100% decision based on 50% of the knowledge.
Last edited by jimmyb; 05-07-2017 at 10:06 AM.
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Rapid Fred (05-24-2017)
05-07-2017, 05:02 PM
#26
Race Director
Thread Starter
I also happen to think the track somehow changed over the years...I don't remember how but I thought it was a possible reason...the cars are much faster....these days...
I do remember there was a time when the track did not want track times reported and the c7 z06 was part of that request...
I'm hopeful the new zr1 times are released ....
We do have lightning laps from car and driver to get a good understanding of what the c7 z06 is comparable to..
Why is it that old Joe never references that data...
How did the Mercedes GTS AMG rank compared to corvette z06.?
For some reason I tend to remember that the AMG GTS got its head handed to it by the c7 z06...
I do remember there was a time when the track did not want track times reported and the c7 z06 was part of that request...
I'm hopeful the new zr1 times are released ....
We do have lightning laps from car and driver to get a good understanding of what the c7 z06 is comparable to..
Why is it that old Joe never references that data...
How did the Mercedes GTS AMG rank compared to corvette z06.?
For some reason I tend to remember that the AMG GTS got its head handed to it by the c7 z06...
05-07-2017, 07:05 PM
#27
Race Director
Well, we are talking about the AMG GT R, which is still over a year from production....
As far as the 2016 AMG GT S, it's actually slower than FOUR Chevrolets in the Car and Driver Lightning Lap:
1. 2015 Corvette C7 Z06
2. 2017 Corvette C7 Grand Sport
3. 2015 Camaro Z/28
4. 2012 Corvette C6 ZR1
As far as the 2016 AMG GT S, it's actually slower than FOUR Chevrolets in the Car and Driver Lightning Lap:
1. 2015 Corvette C7 Z06
2. 2017 Corvette C7 Grand Sport
3. 2015 Camaro Z/28
4. 2012 Corvette C6 ZR1
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JerriVette (05-08-2017)
05-08-2017, 03:31 AM
#28
Race Director
Thread Starter
^^^ So the production AMG GTS which is around 130 grand msrp from Mercedes is slower than the z06'the grand sport the camaro z28
I don't like to go back more than a couple of years......so I'll leave out the 2012 zr1...
What the hell are we talking about a Mercedes GTR that's over a year away from production...that's bull crap since it's so far away from production and sales..
thanks for the heads up Jimmyb
I don't like to go back more than a couple of years......so I'll leave out the 2012 zr1...
What the hell are we talking about a Mercedes GTR that's over a year away from production...that's bull crap since it's so far away from production and sales..
thanks for the heads up Jimmyb
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 05-08-2017 at 11:17 PM.
05-08-2017, 08:58 AM
#29
Team Owner
^^^ The Mercedes release info for the 2017 AMG GT R was June 24, 2016 and all the info about the car was released by Mercedes at that time. At the time of the release, it was well known that production would start shortly.
Mercedes said production would start in Sept, 2016. That was the plan. http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...chmark-102897/
"Moers later explains the fine-tuning of the AMG GT R is ongoing until production begins in September, so the lap time won’t be released until closer to that time when the car’s balance is tighter than a Brexit vote.
“We are running to production in September. I drive it every second week on the race track and it’s unbelievable."
Moers is Mercedes-AMG boss Tobias Moers, in case you didn't know that fact.
For some undisclosed reason, Mercedes has elected to delay production of the GT R until 2018, but that was not the original plan. Mercedes can't put the toothpaste back into the tube, so the 7:10 time they did at Nurburgring, still stands.
Who knows why Mercedes has delayed production. Maybe it was a supplier problem with one(or more) of the components, maybe it was a software problem with the rear wheel steering, etc.
What ever the reason, it appears Mercedes wants the car to be right when it does go into production, unlike the revision to the supercharger on the Z06 that took GM two years to correct and left the owners of the 2015's and 2016 Z06's holding the bag to fix on their own dime.
I don't know why you want to bring the AMG GT S into this discussion. The AMG GT S is not the "top dog" of the Mercedes AMG GT series, unlike the C7 Z06.
By the way, the GT S did 7:35 at Nurburgring in 2016. What did the C7, of any model, do at the Ring? At least Mercedes releases their times.
Mercedes said production would start in Sept, 2016. That was the plan. http://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-...chmark-102897/
"Moers later explains the fine-tuning of the AMG GT R is ongoing until production begins in September, so the lap time won’t be released until closer to that time when the car’s balance is tighter than a Brexit vote.
“We are running to production in September. I drive it every second week on the race track and it’s unbelievable."
Moers is Mercedes-AMG boss Tobias Moers, in case you didn't know that fact.
For some undisclosed reason, Mercedes has elected to delay production of the GT R until 2018, but that was not the original plan. Mercedes can't put the toothpaste back into the tube, so the 7:10 time they did at Nurburgring, still stands.
Who knows why Mercedes has delayed production. Maybe it was a supplier problem with one(or more) of the components, maybe it was a software problem with the rear wheel steering, etc.
What ever the reason, it appears Mercedes wants the car to be right when it does go into production, unlike the revision to the supercharger on the Z06 that took GM two years to correct and left the owners of the 2015's and 2016 Z06's holding the bag to fix on their own dime.
I don't know why you want to bring the AMG GT S into this discussion. The AMG GT S is not the "top dog" of the Mercedes AMG GT series, unlike the C7 Z06.
By the way, the GT S did 7:35 at Nurburgring in 2016. What did the C7, of any model, do at the Ring? At least Mercedes releases their times.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 05-08-2017 at 11:17 PM.
05-08-2017, 09:23 AM
#30
Team Owner
Come on...So now you're mad that they never released a C7 Z06 time and use that to bash them. So you can, as usual, get some FACTS from me (this seems to be my job), when the Z06 was tested (and it was released since it was September 2014), there was a BAN by the NURBURGRING against publishing times (and the track had also implemented a SPEED LIMIT). This is WELL documented, as usual, if you don't believe me, do a search (I'm tired of doing searches for YOU).
To sum up:
1. Mercedes posted a time for a car that won't be released for 16 months!
2. Chevrolet never posted a time for a car that had just BEEN released, honoring the track ban at the time.
3. We got it that you don't like Tadge, the C7, teddy bears, whatever. But man, your never ending negative crap is just tiresome. And your lack of actual fact checking is just lazy, but I guess that's the way in America these days.....if you say it, IT must be true.
4. And last: Tadge DID say they would release a time and they never did, so that's on him. To ASSUME that the time wasn't released because the time wasn't "good" enough to suit all the bench racers when it could be that he was over-ruled because the time was obtained when, by the track rules of the time, shouldn't have been achieved at all is something we'll never know. I don't KNOW that answer, I also KNOW that YOU don't KNOW it either. Another example of people like you making a 100% decision based on 50% of the knowledge.
To sum up:
1. Mercedes posted a time for a car that won't be released for 16 months!
2. Chevrolet never posted a time for a car that had just BEEN released, honoring the track ban at the time.
3. We got it that you don't like Tadge, the C7, teddy bears, whatever. But man, your never ending negative crap is just tiresome. And your lack of actual fact checking is just lazy, but I guess that's the way in America these days.....if you say it, IT must be true.
4. And last: Tadge DID say they would release a time and they never did, so that's on him. To ASSUME that the time wasn't released because the time wasn't "good" enough to suit all the bench racers when it could be that he was over-ruled because the time was obtained when, by the track rules of the time, shouldn't have been achieved at all is something we'll never know. I don't KNOW that answer, I also KNOW that YOU don't KNOW it either. Another example of people like you making a 100% decision based on 50% of the knowledge.
1) Mercedes posted the time for the GT R less than 2 months before the GT R was originally scheduled to go into production, which was scheduled for Sept, 2016.
2) GM had the 2015 C7 Z06 at Nurburgring on Oct 6, 2014, when Jim Mero wrecked the yellow one(but GM still had a the blue Z06 at Nurburgring at that time). That was almost 6 months BEFORE the fatality at Nurburgring that caused them to place the speed restriction on the track(March 28, 2015). That was 6 months that GM could have done additional attempts to get a time, but they didn't. The fact is that Tadge said his famous remark about releasing the Z06's time was in early June 2015. So, that means that GM would have had to have made that attempt prior to March 28,2015, BEFORE the speed restriction was put in place.
Almost one year to the day(March 30, 2016), Nurburgring lifted the speed restriction(after repairing 300 meters of the track, adding additional guards and fencing, etc). After the speed restriction was lifted, at LEAST 8 auto manufacturers have set times at the Ring with 12 different cars. That's 13 months since the lifting of the speed restriction that GM could have taken the Z06 back to Nurburgring to get a time, But they didn't. WHY? GM somehow found the time/money to take the Camaro ZL1 to Nurburgring to get a time(that they posted) since the speed restriction was lifted.
But, even in 2015, after the March 28 fatality, and before the lifting of the speed restriction, there were four different times posted(Alfa Romeo, Lamborghini, Porsche and BMW).
After all, there is no limit to the number of times a manufacturer can make a timing run that is set by Nurburgring. Hell, GM ran the C6 Z06 at the Ring twice(2005 and 2011) and the ZR1 twice(2008 and 2011), and posted the times for all four runs.
So, all in all, GM has had 19 months to get a time for the Z06, without a speed restriction being in place at the Ring.
Last edited by JoesC5; 05-08-2017 at 10:11 AM.
05-08-2017, 10:32 AM
#31
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 13,915
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In the family we have had Merz's for decades. I now have the last one. After dealing with two dealerships and a couple of indies for service, I wouldn't care if the new Merz could pull 5 g's +/-, and laterally. Their service sucks and they don't care if you like it or not. Corvette engineers do show up for track events, take questions, improve the product and ramp up production with what is learned from competition. Having tracked a vette for over 10 years I find it satisfying and able to handle anything else that shows up at the track.
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JerriVette (05-08-2017)
05-08-2017, 11:21 AM
#32
Race Director
You are the one who is short on facts.
1) Mercedes posted the time for the GT R less than 2 months before the GT R was originally scheduled to go into production, which was scheduled for Sept, 2016.
2) GM had the 2015 C7 Z06 at Nurburgring on Oct 6, 2014, when Jim Mero wrecked the yellow one(but GM still had a the blue Z06 at Nurburgring at that time). That was almost 6 months BEFORE the fatality at Nurburgring that caused them to place the speed restriction on the track(March 28, 2015). That was 6 months that GM could have done additional attempts to get a time, but they didn't. The fact is that Tadge said his famous remark about releasing the Z06's time was in early June 2015. So, that means that GM would have had to have made that attempt prior to March 28,2015, BEFORE the speed restriction was put in place.
Almost one year to the day(March 30, 2016), Nurburgring lifted the speed restriction(after repairing 300 meters of the track, adding additional guards and fencing, etc). After the speed restriction was lifted, at LEAST 8 auto manufacturers have set times at the Ring with 12 different cars. That's 13 months since the lifting of the speed restriction that GM could have taken the Z06 back to Nurburgring to get a time, But they didn't. WHY? GM somehow found the time/money to take the Camaro ZL1 to Nurburgring to get a time(that they posted) since the speed restriction was lifted.
But, even in 2015, after the March 28 fatality, and before the lifting of the speed restriction, there were four different times posted(Alfa Romeo, Lamborghini, Porsche and BMW).
After all, there is no limit to the number of times a manufacturer can make a timing run that is set by Nurburgring. Hell, GM ran the C6 Z06 at the Ring twice(2005 and 2011) and the ZR1 twice(2008 and 2011), and posted the times for all four runs.
So, all in all, GM has had 19 months to get a time for the Z06, without a speed restriction being in place at the Ring.
1) Mercedes posted the time for the GT R less than 2 months before the GT R was originally scheduled to go into production, which was scheduled for Sept, 2016.
2) GM had the 2015 C7 Z06 at Nurburgring on Oct 6, 2014, when Jim Mero wrecked the yellow one(but GM still had a the blue Z06 at Nurburgring at that time). That was almost 6 months BEFORE the fatality at Nurburgring that caused them to place the speed restriction on the track(March 28, 2015). That was 6 months that GM could have done additional attempts to get a time, but they didn't. The fact is that Tadge said his famous remark about releasing the Z06's time was in early June 2015. So, that means that GM would have had to have made that attempt prior to March 28,2015, BEFORE the speed restriction was put in place.
Almost one year to the day(March 30, 2016), Nurburgring lifted the speed restriction(after repairing 300 meters of the track, adding additional guards and fencing, etc). After the speed restriction was lifted, at LEAST 8 auto manufacturers have set times at the Ring with 12 different cars. That's 13 months since the lifting of the speed restriction that GM could have taken the Z06 back to Nurburgring to get a time, But they didn't. WHY? GM somehow found the time/money to take the Camaro ZL1 to Nurburgring to get a time(that they posted) since the speed restriction was lifted.
But, even in 2015, after the March 28 fatality, and before the lifting of the speed restriction, there were four different times posted(Alfa Romeo, Lamborghini, Porsche and BMW).
After all, there is no limit to the number of times a manufacturer can make a timing run that is set by Nurburgring. Hell, GM ran the C6 Z06 at the Ring twice(2005 and 2011) and the ZR1 twice(2008 and 2011), and posted the times for all four runs.
So, all in all, GM has had 19 months to get a time for the Z06, without a speed restriction being in place at the Ring.
Why don't YOU do all of us a favor and go hang around the C6 forum. This really has gotten obnoxious. NO one with a C7 wants to hear it. I sure as hell don't go on the C6 forum and berate that car.
Anyhow, on to ignore you go, I'm sick of this negativity (and trolling) about a car that us owners love.
05-08-2017, 12:43 PM
#33
Team Owner
^^^ This is the C8 section. What is obnoxious is C7 owners thinking they control this forum and just because your feelings get hurt, you want to tell other people to leave.
Talk about lies, you posted in the C8 section that the C7 ZR1 was released in 2018. That's a bald face lie.
GM has not released any info that any other Corvettes will be released in MY 2018 besides the StingRay, the Grand Sport and the Z06.
By the way, I also love Corvettes. That's why I currently own three of them. Loving your corvette doesn't make you special. Plenty of Corvette owners love their Corvette. But, loving your Corvette doesn't make it the world's best car. Plenty of other cars in the running, that you get butt hurt about when they are talked about.
Talk about lies, you posted in the C8 section that the C7 ZR1 was released in 2018. That's a bald face lie.
GM has not released any info that any other Corvettes will be released in MY 2018 besides the StingRay, the Grand Sport and the Z06.
By the way, I also love Corvettes. That's why I currently own three of them. Loving your corvette doesn't make you special. Plenty of Corvette owners love their Corvette. But, loving your Corvette doesn't make it the world's best car. Plenty of other cars in the running, that you get butt hurt about when they are talked about.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 05-08-2017 at 11:18 PM.
05-08-2017, 12:58 PM
#34
Race Director
Thread Starter
There is always an argument...let's see how well the ZR1 does at the track...compared to any of the competition...and I'm sure we will get some insight to the Z06 track capability as well.
From other tracks and media events we do know how impressive the c7 z06 and grand sport have been with regards to car and driver lightning laps ...
To say otherwise might show prejudice against the corvette team in general..
This threads about how DCT s don't seem to be in the future of the ultimate driving machine BMW M division plans as torque converter automatics are in the words of the M division head of BMW superior to DCT s..
That's really the topic of the thread,,,
I guess a ZR1 with a torque converter automatic versus the twice as expensive Mercedes AMG GTR with its DCT transmission might just lend some insight to this particular topic...
Should be fun as independent magazines and media outlets get their hands on the Mercedes GTR or GTS if the GTR is still not available at the time of the ZR1 release...
I admire all the various choices of performance sports cars out today...my preferences may lean towards corvettes but I still admire all the fantastic brands and what they specialize in...
Repair maintance, initial and track performance usually are corvette priorities that I align most with. ...plus it's made in America....and to me that holds some weight too...
The GTR or GTS AMG are cool..the various iterations of 911s are too...jaguars f type ,and of course ferriaris 488, Lamborghini s Huracan ...audis R8, I'm not a big fan of the latest nsx, it just doesn't do it for me...same for the BMW I8.....which aren't aging well...
I want the DCT for the corvettes of the future ...but it seems the reality of what is actually the best transmission may be going beyond what many of us have been lead to believe....
I love when **** like that happens...
Turns the world upside down for a bit and shakes things up
From other tracks and media events we do know how impressive the c7 z06 and grand sport have been with regards to car and driver lightning laps ...
To say otherwise might show prejudice against the corvette team in general..
This threads about how DCT s don't seem to be in the future of the ultimate driving machine BMW M division plans as torque converter automatics are in the words of the M division head of BMW superior to DCT s..
That's really the topic of the thread,,,
I guess a ZR1 with a torque converter automatic versus the twice as expensive Mercedes AMG GTR with its DCT transmission might just lend some insight to this particular topic...
Should be fun as independent magazines and media outlets get their hands on the Mercedes GTR or GTS if the GTR is still not available at the time of the ZR1 release...
I admire all the various choices of performance sports cars out today...my preferences may lean towards corvettes but I still admire all the fantastic brands and what they specialize in...
Repair maintance, initial and track performance usually are corvette priorities that I align most with. ...plus it's made in America....and to me that holds some weight too...
The GTR or GTS AMG are cool..the various iterations of 911s are too...jaguars f type ,and of course ferriaris 488, Lamborghini s Huracan ...audis R8, I'm not a big fan of the latest nsx, it just doesn't do it for me...same for the BMW I8.....which aren't aging well...
I want the DCT for the corvettes of the future ...but it seems the reality of what is actually the best transmission may be going beyond what many of us have been lead to believe....
I love when **** like that happens...
Turns the world upside down for a bit and shakes things up
05-09-2017, 09:32 AM
#35
Race Director
All,
My apologies for my part in getting this thread off track, I need to (and will) stop taking the bait.
In the end, BMW is a coupe/sedan/suv company, and as such, going back to TC autos makes sense. I don't think their decision marks the end of DCT's in sports cars.
My apologies for my part in getting this thread off track, I need to (and will) stop taking the bait.
In the end, BMW is a coupe/sedan/suv company, and as such, going back to TC autos makes sense. I don't think their decision marks the end of DCT's in sports cars.
05-09-2017, 12:01 PM
#36
05-09-2017, 12:54 PM
#37
Team Owner
It's way premature to classify the DCT as "dead" based on decisions that BMW is making.
I sure don't understand why the OP believes that all the other manufacturers will make the decision on what transmissions they will have in their cars, based solely on what transmissions BMW will have in their cars.
Last edited by JoesC5; 05-09-2017 at 01:09 PM.
05-09-2017, 01:04 PM
#38
Melting Slicks
I'm very interested in seeing what GM does to the 8sp Auto to optimize the performance of it to handle the prodigious power of the ZR1. Knowing that a DCT has to progressively downshift in a heavy braking condition I think that it is inherently a flawed concept. The current 8sp Auto can skip shift down to the optimal gear in the same heavy braking condition. The TC 8sp Auto might ultimately be faster than a DCT when it finally gets developed to it's full potential. It is obvious to me now that the ZR1 testing at Laguna Seca was the 8sp Auto.
05-09-2017, 01:16 PM
#39
Team Owner
I'm very interested in seeing what GM does to the 8sp Auto to optimize the performance of it to handle the prodigious power of the ZR1. Knowing that a DCT has to progressively downshift in a heavy braking condition I think that it is inherently a flawed concept. The current 8sp Auto can skip shift down to the optimal gear in the same heavy braking condition. The TC 8sp Auto might ultimately be faster than a DCT when it finally gets developed to it's full potential. It is obvious to me now that the ZR1 testing at Laguna Seca was the 8sp Auto.
Who is wrong here? You or https://www.thoughtco.com/dual-clutc...mission-533860 when they say "Most, though not all, dual-clutch transmissions can skip gears when downshifting, such as shifting from 6th gear directly down to 3rd gear, and because of their ability to match revs, they can do so without the lurching or surging that is typical of traditional automatic and manual transmissions."?
Last edited by JoesC5; 05-09-2017 at 01:34 PM.
05-09-2017, 01:36 PM
#40
Melting Slicks
http://www.xtrac.com/news/news.php?id=242
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...vette-C7R.aspx