C8 Mid-Engine: Not All Bunny Rabbits & Rainbows
10-29-2017, 07:56 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
C8 Mid-Engine: Not All Bunny Rabbits & Rainbows
Pardon the length of my post, but Corvette mid-engine circa 2020 isn’t all sweetness & light, folks!
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
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Popular Reply
10-29-2017, 09:46 PM
Instructor
Change is difficult to accept. If the worst to come is that the corvette becomes more like Ferrari, McLaren, and Ford GT.... I'll take a couple.
Besides the sports cars, I have had a '08 escape hybrid with 118k miles, and currently own a different '08-escape hybrid 4wd with 120k miles. I've also previously owned 2 other hybrids and held them through high mileage, starting with a 2003 civic hybrid. Hybrids have been mass produced for over 18 years, I'd hardly say they are untested and I'd happily own a C8 that has electric assist. As a matter of fact, I'm already on Criswell's waiting list for a C8 with or without electric. If anything, cars are now being made to last longer and be more reliable.
Besides the sports cars, I have had a '08 escape hybrid with 118k miles, and currently own a different '08-escape hybrid 4wd with 120k miles. I've also previously owned 2 other hybrids and held them through high mileage, starting with a 2003 civic hybrid. Hybrids have been mass produced for over 18 years, I'd hardly say they are untested and I'd happily own a C8 that has electric assist. As a matter of fact, I'm already on Criswell's waiting list for a C8 with or without electric. If anything, cars are now being made to last longer and be more reliable.
10-29-2017, 09:32 PM
#2
Race Director
Leftists pushing the Global Warming crap have forced V6 turbo in Ferrari & Ford GT.
That's certainly coming, so is a hybrid
But maybe we can shoehorn in an LS9
That's certainly coming, so is a hybrid
But maybe we can shoehorn in an LS9
Last edited by Mjolitor 68; 10-29-2017 at 09:32 PM.
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10-29-2017, 09:38 PM
#3
Race Director
Truck based Lt engines will power the next gen corvette to differentiate it from the "more sophisticated " Dohc engine in the more expensive Cadillac...
When GM truck lineup moves to smaller displacement forced induction so too shall corvette...not before
When GM truck lineup moves to smaller displacement forced induction so too shall corvette...not before
Last edited by JerriVette; 10-29-2017 at 09:52 PM.
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10-29-2017, 09:46 PM
#4
Instructor
Change is difficult to accept. If the worst to come is that the corvette becomes more like Ferrari, McLaren, and Ford GT.... I'll take a couple.
Besides the sports cars, I have had a '08 escape hybrid with 118k miles, and currently own a different '08-escape hybrid 4wd with 120k miles. I've also previously owned 2 other hybrids and held them through high mileage, starting with a 2003 civic hybrid. Hybrids have been mass produced for over 18 years, I'd hardly say they are untested and I'd happily own a C8 that has electric assist. As a matter of fact, I'm already on Criswell's waiting list for a C8 with or without electric. If anything, cars are now being made to last longer and be more reliable.
Besides the sports cars, I have had a '08 escape hybrid with 118k miles, and currently own a different '08-escape hybrid 4wd with 120k miles. I've also previously owned 2 other hybrids and held them through high mileage, starting with a 2003 civic hybrid. Hybrids have been mass produced for over 18 years, I'd hardly say they are untested and I'd happily own a C8 that has electric assist. As a matter of fact, I'm already on Criswell's waiting list for a C8 with or without electric. If anything, cars are now being made to last longer and be more reliable.
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10-30-2017, 03:22 PM
#5
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I believe powertrain engineers within Corvette see a path with a smaller displacement engine, but expanding on torque production through valve timing, cam timing variation, even intake manifold runner length variation. These are all things Honda employed to increase torque in 4 cylinders, dating back to the early 90's. The same is and has been applied to the late gen 4 LS's and new LT's.
I could see GM having a factory production grade 5.5 liter, which coincides with the displacement they've raced for years now in ALMS and Weathertech.
Keep in mind, displacement is a static calculation, but is not a dynamic reality. A street cam 6.2 liter isn't cycling 6.2 liters of air, per cycle; it's less, often far less. Big gains can be made through optimizing volumetric efficiency, and that can be directly done with variable cam timing, variable valve lift, and variable intake runner geometry. These aren't ground breaking technologies either, this just comes down to developing a system that works.
Old thinking says that you need huge displacement to make adequate power, the fact is that is only one method of several, that can increase engine output. Specifically addressing parasitic losses and volumetric efficiency is a key component. Point being, a 5.5 liter that can achieve 100% VE in a street motor, still isn't a norm in the mass production realm.
I think GM will stay the course with torque producing V8's, while enhancing the combustion characteristics, increasing VE and looking at more variable tech. One being, a fully variable intake runner. This factor highly influences how the intake mani resonates and can increase port velocity at low rpm tremendously....i.e. make torque. Combustion stability on street octane through increasing compression is also being explored more and more. Direct injection made that even more possible. Tech can be pushed further with a pushrod setup...no question.
I could see GM having a factory production grade 5.5 liter, which coincides with the displacement they've raced for years now in ALMS and Weathertech.
Keep in mind, displacement is a static calculation, but is not a dynamic reality. A street cam 6.2 liter isn't cycling 6.2 liters of air, per cycle; it's less, often far less. Big gains can be made through optimizing volumetric efficiency, and that can be directly done with variable cam timing, variable valve lift, and variable intake runner geometry. These aren't ground breaking technologies either, this just comes down to developing a system that works.
Old thinking says that you need huge displacement to make adequate power, the fact is that is only one method of several, that can increase engine output. Specifically addressing parasitic losses and volumetric efficiency is a key component. Point being, a 5.5 liter that can achieve 100% VE in a street motor, still isn't a norm in the mass production realm.
I think GM will stay the course with torque producing V8's, while enhancing the combustion characteristics, increasing VE and looking at more variable tech. One being, a fully variable intake runner. This factor highly influences how the intake mani resonates and can increase port velocity at low rpm tremendously....i.e. make torque. Combustion stability on street octane through increasing compression is also being explored more and more. Direct injection made that even more possible. Tech can be pushed further with a pushrod setup...no question.
Last edited by KnightDriveTV; 10-30-2017 at 03:24 PM.
10-30-2017, 03:48 PM
#6
Race Director
Pardon the length of my post, but Corvette mid-engine circa 2020 isn’t all sweetness & light, folks!
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
10-30-2017, 05:09 PM
#7
10-30-2017, 06:46 PM
#9
Safety Car
I sure hope the mid-engine C8 is not all bunny rabbits and rainbows, but instead is major horses galloping at top speed.
10-30-2017, 08:56 PM
#10
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10-30-2017, 11:37 PM
#11
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The engine displacement will more than likely drop to 5.5 or 5.2L so the production engine is the same displacement as the engines running in the IMSA series. Supercharging will become more prevalent because it can produce low rpm torque quicker than a Turbo. There are rumors of a 5.5L DOHC engine in the future but I think GM wants to avoid the complexity and stay with a compact power plant that will fit in the back better than a DOHC engine. It would be neat if they pushed the envelope and came out with a small camless engine using electrically operated valves. Then they could set valve openings any way they wanted to maximize efficiency for fuel mileage or power production. However, that technology probably isn't ready for prime time yet.
Bill
Bill
10-31-2017, 01:37 AM
#13
There are rumors of a 5.5L DOHC engine in the future but I think GM wants to avoid the complexity and stay with a compact power plant that will fit in the back better than a DOHC engine.
It would be neat if they pushed the envelope and came out with a small camless engine using electrically operated valves. Then they could set valve openings any way they wanted to maximize efficiency for fuel mileage or power production. However, that technology probably isn't ready for prime time yet.
GM is about to unload at 750+hp v8 monster. Trump and Co are easing or going to give some... v8 relief
Hate Trump all you want but he is for ME v8's!! WOOOOOO
Hate Trump all you want but he is for ME v8's!! WOOOOOO
10-31-2017, 03:55 PM
#14
Pardon the length of my post, but Corvette mid-engine circa 2020 isn’t all sweetness & light, folks!
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
I for one am waiting for GM to get rid of the pushrod V8 in the corvette. It's probably the main reason I haven't bought one yet.
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gurneyeagle (11-08-2017)
10-31-2017, 05:58 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
The one thing we know is that all of it is in the hands of professionals. If you don't trust the best GM has to offer, then the next car might not be for you.
If you want to sit on your couch and question the experts, then be prepared to be disappointed.
If you want to sit on your couch and question the experts, then be prepared to be disappointed.
10-31-2017, 06:10 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
Pardon the length of my post, but Corvette mid-engine circa 2020 isn’t all sweetness & light, folks!
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
HP equals torque (lb ft) X rpm/5252. So, you can increase a car's HP by increasing torque, increasing engine rpm, or both. You can increase torque with displacement, turbos, superchargers, etc., and you can increase rpm with more expensive internal parts, bearings, etc. Take your pick. But, you are correct in that if displacement goes down, to make power, you need pressurizing or more revs. There is no free lunch.
In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that.
Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
I tend to agree with the thrust of your post, but I am not sure much can be done about it, either. I guess only time will tell....
Last edited by quick04Z06; 10-31-2017 at 06:20 PM.
10-31-2017, 06:11 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
GM is about to unload at 750+hp v8 monster. Trump and Co are easing or going to give some... v8 relief
Hate Trump all you want but he is for ME v8's!! WOOOOOO
Hate Trump all you want but he is for ME v8's!! WOOOOOO
But, a car company plans 5-10 years out. I am afraid the die has been cast away from big displacement V8s and to hybrids and electrics....
Last edited by quick04Z06; 10-31-2017 at 06:18 PM.
10-31-2017, 07:54 PM
#18
10-31-2017, 08:01 PM
#19
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Z06NJ (11-06-2017)
10-31-2017, 08:04 PM
#20
I would be very surprised if they actually build it....