CRABBYJ

Since I suspect runflats for ME no spare tire stored in either end, or underneath for that matter. Thus one golf bag size storage for both.

sunsalem

For one, this:

VETTE-NV

I agree, but look at the sales numbers: 736 Audi's sold in 2016, 495 sold in 2015. 269 Acura NSX's sold in 2016. Those are hardly the kind of figures that would inspire GM to compete. Granted the Cadillac would be priced less, but I'm not so sure the typical Cadillac buyers want to contort their aging bodies into a mid-engine car.

As I said earlier, a FE Caddy GT would make more sense to compete with similar versions by Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus.

Again, it's all speculation at this point.

JoesC5

I agree with your post, except for building a FE Caddy. I think it would have the same fate as the XLR and the ERL, as they were built in Chevrolet plants and were known to be basically rebadged Chevys.

Even it Caddy had a ME , I think it too would be considered an expensive Corvette as it would be also built in a Chevy pant using a lot of Chevy parts. Any Caddy sports car needs to be as far removed as possible from the Corvette(and I'm not knocking the Corvette) as possible, in order for it to have a 'prestige' allure about it. That was the reason GM moved Cadillac headquarters to New York City. Trying to distance it from the run of the mill GM products, so it would have "prestige".

You lose a lot of "prestige" to Mercedes, BMW and Lexus when you are trying to palm off a Chevy as a luxury car, with a luxury car price.

The NSX isn't a rebadged Honda and is not built in a Honda Plant alongside Honda cars, but the typical Acura buyer isn't interested in a "technological show car", with all the latest "bells and whistles". I think that is the failure of the NSX. Not everyone is a self proclaimed 'techie' that has an orgasm just because a car is a hybrid or has an infotainment center that can tell you how long to cook a 12 pound turkey that is in the rear compartment.

I believe, maybe wrongly, that the NSX would have been more successful, it they had made it a more straightforward performance sports car without the heavy battery and the electric motors, etc and cut the price to around $125,000. I believe there is more interest in that kind of sports car than a "technological wonder" of a car.

VETTE-NV

sunsalem

Niiiiice.

jimmyb

Where did you find the information that Cadillac funded the Bowling Green expansion?

Lacquer

Unless of course the Caddy is faster than anything else the competition offers... including the Corvette line.

dcbingaman

Whoa.....I knew the current Mid-Engine (ME) sales volumes were low, but not THAT low. I would guess that Ferrari sold maybe 300-400 488's in the same time periods. If GM captured ALL of those sales going forward, you are still only talking about 1500-2000 cars a year. You sure don't need Bowling Green to build that quantity - they could crank them all out in 1 month !

The only way GM builds a ME is if it costs $60-$85K. Otherwise they won't get the volume to build the business case.

BTW, does anyone know how many Boxsters and Cayman's Porsche produces a year and how many are sold in the US ??

sunsalem

Ferrari sales figures are hard to come by.
Ordinarily, they don't release individual model sales (except for some limited editions).
Last year they sold slightly more than 8,000 cars in total.

jimmyb

Here you go, Boxster/Cayman sales for calendar 2016 in the U.S. See post #30 and #32.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1594256707

JoesC5

The 2016 NSX sales number is a little misleading as the NSX didn't go into production until June 2016 and they only built 2 that first month.

While the NSX's sales have been way below Acura's expectations, that have built 355 NSX's in the first nine months of 2017. Still far below the ~2,000 annually that the NSX plant in Ohio was expected to produce annually. Even Acura saw the writing on the wall early on and changed their production estimates to 1,000 annually for the first year of production(900 for the US market and 100 for the Japanese market).

Kind of like GM's production estimates for the Volt. What GM said they would sale(revised downward early on, before the Volt went into production) wasn't even close to what they did sale. Same for the hybrid NSX. Seems people aren't all that interested in hybrid sports cars.

JoesC5

2016 Boxster(US and Canadian sales)-----3015
2017 Boxster(US and Canadian sales) first 9 months----2110

2016 Cayman(US and Canadian sales)-----3935
2017 Cayman(US and Canadian sales) first 9 months-----2247

Combined 2016 sales-----6950
Combined 2017 sales (first 9 months)----4357

2016 911 sales(US and Canadian)----9845
2017 911 sales(US and Canadian) first 9 months----7356

The more expensive 911 outsells both the Boxster and the Cayman combined(US and Canadian).

dcbingaman

OK, so let's give Ferrari the benefit of the doubt and say they sell 1000 488's a year in the US. Porsche sells about 7000 Boxster / Caymans, Audi and Acura sell a combined 1500 a year. Ford will sell 250 Ford GT's a year into this same market. That makes the entire current ME market in the US less than 10,000 cars a year, most of which are Porsches that sell for less than $80K. The economist call this price elasticity.

(The 911 marketplace is really a different animal - it has been consistent at around 10,000 cars a year for 20+ years, and I doubt many of these buyers would even consider any other marque. Many 911 guys consider water-cooled engines to be blasphemy and the Boxster to be a car for the wife.)

These all great cars, but, there are likely not enough consumers in the US who want or have the wherewithal to buy more than about 10,000 of these cars, even if 70% of them cost less than $80K. Compare that to the ~30,000 Corvettes GM has sold the last three years running.

The comparison tells me that GM is looking for a big paradigm shift in the marketplace, which they will offer by providing an ME car with the performance of an Audi, Acura, Ferrari or Ford GT, at near the price of the current C7. They need to keep the large Corvette market and convert many of the buyers of these other ME cars to GM sales. The most likely targets are Boxster and Cayman buyers, because that is where the required sales volume is. That is the only way this makes any sense.

They will keep the C7 in production for a couple years, largely to hedge their bet, but it is looking more and more to me like they want to move the entire Corvettte market wholesale over to a ME platform. THAT is a bold move, that can't be accomplished by a $150K car.

Should be fun to watch.....make mine Admiral Blue with a DOHC LT5 small block V-8. No blowers required, thanks.

sunsalem

According to Maranello, the California is Ferrari's biggest seller and about half of all their cars are sold in the U.S.

dcbingaman

Yeah, I've heard the same thing. The California T is also the lowest priced car in their line at (ahem) $200K. The 488 sells for closer to $300K. So assume that they sell 7500 total, half in the US. That would say ~3700 in the US, of which likely more than half are front-engined GT's like the California - that would make my guess of ~1000 or so 488's pretty close. They probably sell much smaller numbers of their V-12 super-duper-cars, like the F12 and the LaFerrari.

BTW, have you seen their new California T successor, the Portofino ? Drop dead gorgeous and 590 HP with a motorized removable hardtop. I'd buy one in a heartbeat just for the looks if I won the Powerball !!

JoesC5

Those 7,000 Cayman/Boxster buyers could buy a Corvette today if they wanted a Corvette, and in the same price range. What makes you think they will jump on a mid engine Corvette if they are not interested in a front engine Corvette that already has more performance than the mid engine Porsche they are currently driving?

Porsche has "prestige" that the Corvette is lacking. That has lot to do with which car those people buy.

Ask any of your neighbors/coworkers that are not car people and don't know what kind of cars you drive, which brand(Porsche and Corvette) has "star power". I bet they would say Porsche.

Same goes with Mercedes and Cadillac as to "star power" in sedans/SUVs etc. Mercedes will come out on top every time. Cadillac will have a hard time convincing Mercedes owners to jump ship in any meaningful quantity and I believe that GM will have a very difficult time trying to get Porsche owners to jump ship to a mid engine Corvette.

dcbingaman

I guess we'll see. All I can say is when I go to Cars and Coffee, a lot of people there admire and appreciate what GM has done with the C7. That includes Porsche and Ferrari owners.

"Star Power" or "Prestige" is a very hard thing to quantify, but it does change value over time. I would say the Corvette "brand" is as prestigious as it has ever been. In addition, Corvette sells more sports cars in the US market than everyone else combined. That speaks to the popularity if not prestige of the "brand" as loudly as anything else.

sunsalem

Always wanted a Ferrari V12...

Forget the Powerball...DO IT!!
You know you want to...

BTW, here are some pics of the new Portofino:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=1508455775057

MikeG37

I agree.. to a point. Thing is most Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari,..etc. owners also buy other cars. The "star power" model in their garage(s) isn't their only means of transportation, or fun. If something is offered with superior performance, exotic looks, is the new IN thing, they'll just add to the stable. The relative bargain price will be even more of an incentive to ****** one up.