C8 Mid-Engine: Not All Bunny Rabbits & Rainbows
11-01-2017, 12:28 AM
#21
Pardon the length of my post, but Corvette mid-engine circa 2020 isn’t all sweetness & light, folks!
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
As sure as the sun rises in the east, I think “mid-engine” is also a synonym for “modest displacement”. Get your old-school LS7’s, newer-school LT1’s, LT4’s and (rumored) LT5’s while you can. I’m afraid Corvette will take advantage of the precedents (and friendly product development cover) offered by the Europeans – who must live with outrageously high petrol taxes to fund entitlements, carbon dioxide dogma, EU mandates and related concerns that dictate smaller displacement “power units”.
I really don’t want stop-start features or the mechanical complexity of smaller displacement engines that need to live at the upper-end of their rev ranges to provide most of their torque and horsepower. Unfortunately, I’m guessing Corvette is headed this way too, using overwrought V-6’s (or small-displacement V-8’s) at some point like Ford GT, McLaren, Ferrari and others – all basically under four liters - that can’t live without turbocharging or supercharging in one form or another. There’s a reason – even if you choose to believe the car magazine guys (and girls) can’t drive quickly - why the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE and the 2015 Corvette ZO6 continue to out-quick at lot of much more expensive Eurohardware at Car & Driver’s 2017 “Lightning Lap”.
The complexity of highly-stressed, smaller-displacement engines has become difficult to avoid in new cars. I’m guessing most of the engine complexity and technology in a 2020 mid-engine Corvette will be obsolete in 5 years. In my opinion, we’re clearly facing cars engineered as disposables which have a maximum useful life of 100,000 miles or 10 years and could be difficult to service and maintain at a reasonable cost after that. Government mandates are probably pushing the engineering budgets and resources of the OEM’s, so you get technology like supercharged AND turbocharged engines (at Volvo), continuously variable transmissions and hybrids that are not fully-tested for durability and / or patently uneconomic without large government purchase subsidies. Don’t even talk to me about electric battery life which is laughable for use in a non-urban setting. Holy Guacamole, Batman! Just wait until these engines are out of warranty and the costs of out-of-warranty maintenance become due. No thanks.
The reliability, simplicity and grunt of older generation engines like GM’s LS7 or an equivalent produced by other reputable manufacturers will – in my opinion - be heralded for years to come. If you really have a need for an "under warranty" new car, Vettes still can be configured in fairly simple form, and I really can't think of any other "desirable" sports cars that appeal to me as long-term “keepers”. Get C7 while you can…
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-c8-birth.html
11-01-2017, 09:52 AM
#22
Melting Slicks
I'm very happy with the motor in my Cadillac ATS-V. 3.6 ltr V-6, DOHC, 24 valves, twin turbo, and 464 hp. Very smooth...with almost zero turbo lag and good fuel economy.
Only negative is it doesn't have the big V-8 sound.
Get used to it....these are the future. The big V-8 engines are becoming dinosaurs.
Only negative is it doesn't have the big V-8 sound.
Get used to it....these are the future. The big V-8 engines are becoming dinosaurs.
11-01-2017, 10:56 AM
#23
Drifting
Forget about CAMs and Springs and DOHC or OHV altogether and put in the electrically actuated valve system. This would be a major leap forward. The technology is there and the C8 would be a perfect test bed for such new tech before it moves accross the entire product line.
11-01-2017, 11:04 AM
#24
My greatest fear is the c8 will be like the NSX.... just a big pile of computers. The motor should be around 5.0L for IMSA classes. I would love to see a flat plane crank and a 8k rpm redline.
Last edited by mustclime; 11-01-2017 at 11:05 AM.
11-01-2017, 11:32 AM
#25
Your wish will be granted. Another tidbit I was able to confirm last evening is that the C8 engine will in fact have a flat plane crack. Engineer evaluation engine(s) have been running around in Camaro mule(s) and they were very worried about getting the exhaust sound just right.
11-01-2017, 12:18 PM
#26
Now if anyone wants to really speculate... why hasn't the advance engineering group taken two (2) LTG 2.0L turbo Gen III Ecotech engines and married them in a common 90 degree V8 block with a flat plane crank.
11-01-2017, 02:33 PM
#29
Race Director
It doesn't need to have immense HP if they make it lighter. The C7 is too heavy, especially the Z06.
I wouldn't mind a V6 turbo if done correctly, not like in the Ford GT that makes less power and gets worse gas mileage than the McLaren turbo V8s. The GT350 engine in the mustang impresses me more than the turbo V6 in the Ford GT. Going OHV GM could make a high revving V8 that sounded awesome and made great HP with lower displacement. But that would be a departure from what Corvette has always been, Corvette has always shared the basic engine architecture with the trucks.
Either way I can say I am more excited about the potential Mid Engine Vette than I have been about Vettes in a long long time. I have a 1970 that I have had for 21 yrs and ordered a 2000 Hardtop right after graduating college and bought a 2003 Z06 new but never was that excited about the C6 or C7 even though I like them.
I wouldn't mind a V6 turbo if done correctly, not like in the Ford GT that makes less power and gets worse gas mileage than the McLaren turbo V8s. The GT350 engine in the mustang impresses me more than the turbo V6 in the Ford GT. Going OHV GM could make a high revving V8 that sounded awesome and made great HP with lower displacement. But that would be a departure from what Corvette has always been, Corvette has always shared the basic engine architecture with the trucks.
Either way I can say I am more excited about the potential Mid Engine Vette than I have been about Vettes in a long long time. I have a 1970 that I have had for 21 yrs and ordered a 2000 Hardtop right after graduating college and bought a 2003 Z06 new but never was that excited about the C6 or C7 even though I like them.
Last edited by rgregory; 11-01-2017 at 02:34 PM.
11-01-2017, 05:14 PM
#30
Engineer evaluation engine(s) have been running around in Camaro mule(s) and they were very worried about getting the exhaust sound just right.
IMO, the LT engines have the least attractive sound of the American V8s being currently produced.
Ford has always spent a lot of time working on the sound of their Mustang V8s and it shows.
11-01-2017, 06:21 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by quick04Z06
Even the very limited production high-end versions suffer the price drop, like SL63 AMGs. Oversupply of used cars may be a part, but not the only part.
11-01-2017, 07:42 PM
#32
Instructor
As an M3 V8 owner, the motor is $25K installed for a replacement. Extended warranties are the only way to go on cars like that. Anxiously awaiting how the ME Corvette unfolds...
11-01-2017, 08:32 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
I can't get over all the people running around with their hair on fire screaming 'The sky is falling'!!! The 'old days' are gone.
I've owned Corvettes since 1968 and have a C7 'vert' in my garage... parked next to a S63 AMG, an Aston Martin, and a 2 year old Ferrari. The Corvette team needs to move the product into the future fast because there in absolutely nothing wrong with a small displacement, boosted V, in terms of performance, fun factor or economy. Oh, and don't get me started on the benefits of dual clutch auto/manual transmissions. I have absolutely no problem with a hybrid or some version of electric propulsion either. The only thing I'll miss is the good old V8 'sound track'.
I've owned Corvettes since 1968 and have a C7 'vert' in my garage... parked next to a S63 AMG, an Aston Martin, and a 2 year old Ferrari. The Corvette team needs to move the product into the future fast because there in absolutely nothing wrong with a small displacement, boosted V, in terms of performance, fun factor or economy. Oh, and don't get me started on the benefits of dual clutch auto/manual transmissions. I have absolutely no problem with a hybrid or some version of electric propulsion either. The only thing I'll miss is the good old V8 'sound track'.
11-02-2017, 04:41 PM
#34
Race Director
Cost of maintaince and build on present lt engines is a big reason I prefer naturally aspirated or supercharged ohv engines.
Compact, lightweight, inexpensive to build and maintain and class leading in performance and economy doesn't hurt either..
Dct I agree..I'd love that superior tech...but if not a manual or 10 speed torque converter auto would do..
Rear mid engine will be sweet. ,time for that evolution to hit the showrooms at our local Chevy dealers...
No more holding onto the previous gen because the newest is only slightly different...
Jmo
Compact, lightweight, inexpensive to build and maintain and class leading in performance and economy doesn't hurt either..
Dct I agree..I'd love that superior tech...but if not a manual or 10 speed torque converter auto would do..
Rear mid engine will be sweet. ,time for that evolution to hit the showrooms at our local Chevy dealers...
No more holding onto the previous gen because the newest is only slightly different...
Jmo
11-02-2017, 09:57 PM
#35
Melting Slicks
11-03-2017, 12:08 AM
#36
Team Owner
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11-03-2017, 02:04 AM
#37
11-03-2017, 09:35 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
For the last 15-odd years, I have been hearing (right here in this Corvette Forum) that the LS/LT engines GM makes are smaller and lighter than their "European" counterparts.
To me, this means that there is no reason not to put the big honking LT motor in the back of the ME Vette. If it is smaller and lighter, and we already know it has the power and TQ (along with serviceability, tunability, ...) there is no reason not to.
In addition, since we won't be looking over the engine, the engineers in the motor department can "investigate" tall intake tracks (straighter and larger) without compromising the height of the 'bonnet' (which is now behind the driver).
And BTW, there are NO Turbo Ferrari V6s, the 488 and CAL are both sub-4.0 litre V8s.
To me, this means that there is no reason not to put the big honking LT motor in the back of the ME Vette. If it is smaller and lighter, and we already know it has the power and TQ (along with serviceability, tunability, ...) there is no reason not to.
In addition, since we won't be looking over the engine, the engineers in the motor department can "investigate" tall intake tracks (straighter and larger) without compromising the height of the 'bonnet' (which is now behind the driver).
And BTW, there are NO Turbo Ferrari V6s, the 488 and CAL are both sub-4.0 litre V8s.
11-03-2017, 10:00 PM
#39
For the last 15-odd years, I have been hearing (right here in this Corvette Forum) that the LS/LT engines GM makes are smaller and lighter than their "European" counterparts.
To me, this means that there is no reason not to put the big honking LT motor in the back of the ME Vette. If it is smaller and lighter, and we already know it has the power and TQ (along with serviceability, tunability, ...) there is no reason not to.
In addition, since we won't be looking over the engine, the engineers in the motor department can "investigate" tall intake tracks (straighter and larger) without compromising the height of the 'bonnet' (which is now behind the driver).
And BTW, there are NO Turbo Ferrari V6s, the 488 and CAL are both sub-4.0 litre V8s.
To me, this means that there is no reason not to put the big honking LT motor in the back of the ME Vette. If it is smaller and lighter, and we already know it has the power and TQ (along with serviceability, tunability, ...) there is no reason not to.
In addition, since we won't be looking over the engine, the engineers in the motor department can "investigate" tall intake tracks (straighter and larger) without compromising the height of the 'bonnet' (which is now behind the driver).
And BTW, there are NO Turbo Ferrari V6s, the 488 and CAL are both sub-4.0 litre V8s.
The main advantage the LT1 may have is physical size.
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11-03-2017, 11:47 PM
#40
Race Director
Ford guys dig Ford motors. Chevy guys dig ls or LT motors.
The LT1 and LT 4 or even the upcoming LT5 supercharged motors are preferred by corvette enthusiasts.
Small packaging lightweight and inexpensive as well as reliable are Chevy ohv hallmarks.
Whatever GM decodes to use to power the rear mid engine corvette is cool with us. The low cost,reliability and power are what we want.
The transmission would be a manual, a dct or a 10 speed torque converter automatic.
Rear mid engine will make corvette buyers go Gaga over it ...
And it will allow the camaro to evolve to a sleeker design 2 plus 2 much as we can see the mustang gt is evolving into. Leaving the retro pony car theme behind considering how much the higher output 2 plus 2 front engine competirs can go up to...
We will see soon enough....and hear what will be powering our American sports car super car icon. I'm hopeful for something similiar in shape and size to the mclaren 675 spyder I recently saw...
To my eye it was just about perfect but at 429 grand I would not purchase...
Hopefully we'll see more affordable reasonably priced corvette.
The LT1 and LT 4 or even the upcoming LT5 supercharged motors are preferred by corvette enthusiasts.
Small packaging lightweight and inexpensive as well as reliable are Chevy ohv hallmarks.
Whatever GM decodes to use to power the rear mid engine corvette is cool with us. The low cost,reliability and power are what we want.
The transmission would be a manual, a dct or a 10 speed torque converter automatic.
Rear mid engine will make corvette buyers go Gaga over it ...
And it will allow the camaro to evolve to a sleeker design 2 plus 2 much as we can see the mustang gt is evolving into. Leaving the retro pony car theme behind considering how much the higher output 2 plus 2 front engine competirs can go up to...
We will see soon enough....and hear what will be powering our American sports car super car icon. I'm hopeful for something similiar in shape and size to the mclaren 675 spyder I recently saw...
To my eye it was just about perfect but at 429 grand I would not purchase...
Hopefully we'll see more affordable reasonably priced corvette.
