GM’s Mid-Engine Economy Car
12-07-2017, 03:10 PM
#21
The ME C8 will beat normal production Porsches out of the gate!
Please note, there have been some Porsches with excellent wishbone suspensions, but these have typically been racing cars or supercars.
Last edited by PurpleLion; 12-15-2017 at 08:53 AM.
12-07-2017, 03:21 PM
#22
Is being equal to the Cayman/Boxster really the target - the current car, at the same price point, outperforms the Cayman/Boxster and outsells them in the US by almost 4:1.
Cheap Me cars (like the Fiero) won't sell because much like cheap convertibles (think Miata & Fiat 124, but also BMW Z40 don't sell well because they are neither great performers, nor practical.
It is pretty interesting to me, that the guys who are probably most passionate about GM making a cheap ME are a very small percentage of Corvette owners who will use the car as nothing but a show car or garage queen and therefore don't mind it being useless as a regular means of transportation, but are also too cheap (or poor) to buy a Ferrari-Maclaren-Lamborghini.
Cars, even exotic cars, are cheap compared to what owning a decent sized (40-65') boat or twin engine aircraft costs.
Cheap Me cars (like the Fiero) won't sell because much like cheap convertibles (think Miata & Fiat 124, but also BMW Z40 don't sell well because they are neither great performers, nor practical.
It is pretty interesting to me, that the guys who are probably most passionate about GM making a cheap ME are a very small percentage of Corvette owners who will use the car as nothing but a show car or garage queen and therefore don't mind it being useless as a regular means of transportation, but are also too cheap (or poor) to buy a Ferrari-Maclaren-Lamborghini.
Cars, even exotic cars, are cheap compared to what owning a decent sized (40-65') boat or twin engine aircraft costs.
12-07-2017, 07:12 PM
#23
Le Mans Master
Mid 1980s Toyota MR2 was a handling superstar. One of the most fun cars I've ever had the pleasure to drive!
Last edited by Virtual Geezer; 12-07-2017 at 07:36 PM.
12-09-2017, 01:48 AM
#24
Intermediate
Not really that hard to compete with Porsche. Most production Porsche model are highly compromised sports cars. Rear engine (i.e. 911) - not optimal. Struts instead of wishbones? NG.
The ME C8 will beat normal production Porsches out of the gate!
Please note, there have been some Porsches with excellent wishbone suspensions, but these have typically been racing cars or supercars.
The ME C8 will beat normal production Porsches out of the gate!
Please note, there have been some Porsches with excellent wishbone suspensions, but these have typically been racing cars or supercars.
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ByByBMW (12-09-2017)
12-09-2017, 02:58 AM
#25
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We know the engineers have said they have pushed the front mid engine chassis as far as they can from a performance standpoint. The car does compete with the exotics, BMWs and Porsches. When you take your car to the track you want to lap as fast as anybody else at the track can and if a wimpy car is built you can't do that.
Once other cars regularly start driving away from Corvettes on track the meaning of having a Corvette goes away. The waxers buy the car for its image and without the performance the image goes in the toilet. Just like in drag racing and Indy Car racing, once competing against rear mid engine cars the front mid engine car is doomed both the front engine dragster and the front engine Indy Roadster bit the dust in the mid 60s/early 70s.
From an assembly standpoint it won't cost GM any more labor costs to build a front or mid engine Corvette than it does any other vehicle they produce. From a materials standpoint there won't be any difference in costs between the current front engine car and the mid engine car. The price will be higher than the C7 by about the same amount a new model front engine car would be. What does GM get out of the car, a snappy performing car that will sell well at all levels of performance. They can produce a Boxster competitor, a 911 competitor and a exotic competitor. To compete with the exotics it doesn't have to sell at the same price they do, it just has to produce better/equal performance. GM builds bang for the buck. How many have felt the satisfaction of being able to run around the track faster than Ferrari's and Lambo's? It is a great feeling since you know you paid 1/3 the price and can whip their butts.
Bill
Once other cars regularly start driving away from Corvettes on track the meaning of having a Corvette goes away. The waxers buy the car for its image and without the performance the image goes in the toilet. Just like in drag racing and Indy Car racing, once competing against rear mid engine cars the front mid engine car is doomed both the front engine dragster and the front engine Indy Roadster bit the dust in the mid 60s/early 70s.
From an assembly standpoint it won't cost GM any more labor costs to build a front or mid engine Corvette than it does any other vehicle they produce. From a materials standpoint there won't be any difference in costs between the current front engine car and the mid engine car. The price will be higher than the C7 by about the same amount a new model front engine car would be. What does GM get out of the car, a snappy performing car that will sell well at all levels of performance. They can produce a Boxster competitor, a 911 competitor and a exotic competitor. To compete with the exotics it doesn't have to sell at the same price they do, it just has to produce better/equal performance. GM builds bang for the buck. How many have felt the satisfaction of being able to run around the track faster than Ferrari's and Lambo's? It is a great feeling since you know you paid 1/3 the price and can whip their butts.
Bill
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12-09-2017, 04:25 AM
#26
Within two to three years of the debut of the mid engine Corvette C8, the 911 will go mid-engine, but out of the gate, the ME Corvette will be a better sports car than the 911 and it will cost a hell of a lot less!
Last edited by PurpleLion; 12-09-2017 at 04:27 AM.
12-09-2017, 09:42 AM
#27
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Regardless, my statement is factual. A compromised design may be fun to drive, etc, while also being a less than optimal design from an engineering standpoint. But, when the price warrants (super car) or the need is great (race car) Porsche replaces struts with wishbones and flips the engine (Porsche RSR, etc.).
Within two to three years of the debut of the mid engine Corvette C8, the 911 will go mid-engine, but out of the gate, the ME Corvette will be a better sports car than the 911 and it will cost a hell of a lot less!
Within two to three years of the debut of the mid engine Corvette C8, the 911 will go mid-engine, but out of the gate, the ME Corvette will be a better sports car than the 911 and it will cost a hell of a lot less!
12-09-2017, 09:55 PM
#28
Intermediate
Regardless, my statement is factual. A compromised design may be fun to drive, etc, while also being a less than optimal design from an engineering standpoint. But, when the price warrants (super car) or the need is great (race car) Porsche replaces struts with wishbones and flips the engine (Porsche RSR, etc.).
Within two to three years of the debut of the mid engine Corvette C8, the 911 will go mid-engine, but out of the gate, the ME Corvette will be a better sports car than the 911 and it will cost a hell of a lot less!
Within two to three years of the debut of the mid engine Corvette C8, the 911 will go mid-engine, but out of the gate, the ME Corvette will be a better sports car than the 911 and it will cost a hell of a lot less!
12-10-2017, 12:34 PM
#29
Race Director
As with round taillights, many die-hard fans of a particular marque love tradition even when there is no logical call for it...
12-10-2017, 12:47 PM
#30
Race Director
You state it is factual, yet provide no facts... so I see where you're going with this. The Corvette is a fantastic car and the price point is very attractive. However your statements are evident you are living within very limited perspectives and experiences. Have fun.
Again, he is not arguing with your “feeling” that the 911 provides an amazing driving experience — given how many knowledgeable folks agree with you it would be an unwinnable argument. But — (1) what Porsche themselves do when ultimate performance is the target (back to 962’s for crying out loud) plus (2) their own designers and engineers trying to get rid of it for street use back in the 70’s, plus (3) the automotive world is unanimous in rejecting rear-engine as a starting point for their vehicle engineering. These are ALL facts — and persuasive arguments supporting the “compromised” contention.
12-10-2017, 08:35 PM
#31
Intermediate
It will be interesting to see what problems may arise going mid-engine. No matter how much testing is done in their R&D, real world usage from different drivers with different driving styles on their daily commutes or track days will give interesting feedback. GM might have anticipated this, which could explain why there is a possibility of a ME and FE both being unveiled.
12-10-2017, 11:23 PM
#32
Intermediate
Most of what he listed are facts!
Again, he is not arguing with your “feeling” that the 911 provides an amazing driving experience — given how many knowledgeable folks agree with you it would be an unwinnable argument. But — (1) what Porsche themselves do when ultimate performance is the target (back to 962’s for crying out loud) plus (2) their own designers and engineers trying to get rid of it for street use back in the 70’s, plus (3) the automotive world is unanimous in rejecting rear-engine as a starting point for their vehicle engineering. These are ALL facts — and persuasive arguments supporting the “compromised” contention.
Again, he is not arguing with your “feeling” that the 911 provides an amazing driving experience — given how many knowledgeable folks agree with you it would be an unwinnable argument. But — (1) what Porsche themselves do when ultimate performance is the target (back to 962’s for crying out loud) plus (2) their own designers and engineers trying to get rid of it for street use back in the 70’s, plus (3) the automotive world is unanimous in rejecting rear-engine as a starting point for their vehicle engineering. These are ALL facts — and persuasive arguments supporting the “compromised” contention.
So your you obviously feel the Corvette is compromised too until the MI arrives.
Surely the 'compromised' rear engine has never been able to compete with any other cars. Oh wait....
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Racer X (12-12-2017)
12-11-2017, 12:08 PM
#34
Many of us are not.
If I'm buying a new sports car in 2018, I demand significant improvements over what I already have in my garage.
12-11-2017, 12:35 PM
#35
Race Director
To be fair, EVERYTHING involves compromises. "Rear-mid" has issues around "packaging volume" and cooling --which, of course, talented engineers deal well with.
I think it is the contention of every sentient being on this site, and probably most on any high-performance car Forum, including Porsche sites, that the rear-engine design was an idiosynchratic dead-end 40 years ago. Porsche, to the delight of their die-hard air cooled fans, and ultimately to the joy of all motoring fans, managed to keep the 911 relevant, even superior, via expensive and very clever engineering fixes. But don't kid yourself -- they planned the death of that thing in 1975 -- but their two initial replacements (the 924 and the 928) completely missed the mark for various reasons. Had they led with the 944, things might well have been quite different. After all, from 1984-1989 they sold twice as many of them as the 911 -- plus a few 928s, 924S models etc.
I quit -- you obviously have a much different definition of "compromised" than 95% of people on this planet. Bless your heart...
12-11-2017, 07:33 PM
#36
Le Mans Master
Back to the subject that does a ME must mean way more expensive doesn't IMHO have to be that way. I think the if the rumors of 2 new overhead cam engines and turbo chargers that will cost more than the present pushrod engines and if Chevy decides to Hybrid them with AWD and electric motors, yep it'll be up there. But everything else should be in line price wise and I can't envision these things to be out of reach. If the bean counters want to sell 30K of them a year, they will no way price them out of reach. What a coup for Corvette if they come out with a ME that costs about the same as a present ZO6.
12-12-2017, 11:35 PM
#37
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All production street cars are compromised versus optimal design for performance on the track.
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Z06Fiend (12-13-2017)
12-13-2017, 09:02 AM
#38
Safety Car
Hardly a mid engine. Randy Pobst reviews these cars. Check out PGT2 and 3 and C7 Vettes. Also check out my review of the C7 chassis somewhere on this forum. Wasting my time here.
Last edited by Shaka; 12-13-2017 at 09:04 AM.
12-13-2017, 10:44 AM
#39
12-13-2017, 11:10 AM
#40
But, front-midship is NOT mid-engine.
Why would anyone even pay $5k more when going ME does NOT represent a $5k cost increase?
Last edited by SSsedanM6; 12-13-2017 at 11:14 AM.