GM’s Mid-Engine Economy Car
12-14-2017, 08:19 PM
#42
12-14-2017, 08:23 PM
#43
12-14-2017, 11:18 PM
#44
LOL GM is not targeting a Boxster! They've been rivaling 911's all this time and I have a feeling they are targeting bigger fish than a 911.
12-14-2017, 11:20 PM
#45
The C8 must be exclusively mid-engine and retain the base C7 MSRP of $55k.
If not, GM will be making a huge mistake.
The pice/performance ratio has always been Corvette's selling point.
Ask Porsche/exotic prices, and people will just buy a Porsche/exotic instead, including me.
If not, GM will be making a huge mistake.
The pice/performance ratio has always been Corvette's selling point.
Ask Porsche/exotic prices, and people will just buy a Porsche/exotic instead, including me.
Last edited by DaveFerrari458; 12-14-2017 at 11:22 PM.
12-15-2017, 07:59 AM
#46
My statement re Porsche changing the 911 to a ME layout is an opinion and I could definitely be wrong.
They have kept the rear engine layout due to market pressure. The 911 can have rear seats due to its rear engine. Perhaps this is a cherished feature of Porsche customers who are looking to rationalize what some consider to be a selfish purchase (i.e. a two seat sports car). However, I am slightly amazed that the 911 is still being sold.
Once the ME Corvette becomes available, people who love high performance cars will buy them like hot-cakes. The only people who will want to buy a 911 will be people who have to have the status or people that don't know or care about cars that much. Porsche is currently actively hamstringing the Boxster-Cayman to prevent it from outperforming the 911. A four cylinder sports car that can cost over 100K? Good luck trying to sell it against a 500HP ME Corvette that costs 70K!
Perhaps Porsche will leave the 911 as is, and increase the capabilities of their ME duo. However, my opinion is that Porsche will want to maximize the selling power of the 911 silhouette and will therefore respond to the ME Corvette by making the 911 ME. In the final analysis, I do not really care what Porsche does. I care about GM producing a revolutionary Corvette for a reasonable price!
Last edited by PurpleLion; 12-15-2017 at 08:04 AM.
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ByByBMW (12-16-2017)
12-15-2017, 08:46 AM
#47
The Ford Pantera is the only V8, mid engine car that was offered at a semi-mortal price, but it was still significantly more than a 911.
We should all be really thankful that GM is doing this. Hopefully the new mid engine Corvette will become the new world standard for an affordable sports car.
12-15-2017, 10:53 AM
#48
The average Corvette buyer is 63 years old.
If GM wants to continue to sell Corvette, they need to replace the generation that is about to die off.
They need to retain the current MSRP with the next C8 generation, and go exclusively mid-engine.
12-15-2017, 12:27 PM
#49
Instructor
The votes are already in.
The average Corvette buyer is 63 years old.
If GM wants to continue to sell Corvette, they need to replace the generation that is about to die off.
They need to retain the current MSRP with the next C8 generation, and go exclusively mid-engine.
The average Corvette buyer is 63 years old.
If GM wants to continue to sell Corvette, they need to replace the generation that is about to die off.
They need to retain the current MSRP with the next C8 generation, and go exclusively mid-engine.
12-15-2017, 06:33 PM
#50
Back in the mid 80's, I was Mechanic at an Oldsmobile dealer. One day I was in the showroom talking to the owner , I pointed to the poster on the wall that said "this is not your fathers Oldsmobile", I said "that will be the death of Oldsmobile". Tom said " what do you know about what sells , you're a Mechanic". I said "They are alienating their core buyers , I see what is going on after the sale , I hear the complaints , they just plain don't like the new car at all". I also see the wife pick them up with the new car, usually a Crown Vic or rear wheal drive Mercury. He went on how Old People die off , and how they must attract younger buyers or they will die off with them. I told him that there will be no shortage of old Farts , as people age the will end up wanting their Fathers Oldsmobile. Well time has proved Me right , Oldsmobile is gone , and his dealership went bankrupt even before that .
Companies need to replace their old and dying customers with new and younger customers.
If not, they will die like Oldsmobile did, and Corvette potentially will as well.
12-15-2017, 08:05 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
Most of what he listed are facts!
Again, he is not arguing with your “feeling” that the 911 provides an amazing driving experience — given how many knowledgeable folks agree with you it would be an unwinnable argument. But — (1) what Porsche themselves do when ultimate performance is the target (back to 962’s for crying out loud) plus (2) their own designers and engineers trying to get rid of it for street use back in the 70’s, plus (3) the automotive world is unanimous in rejecting rear-engine as a starting point for their vehicle engineering. These are ALL facts — and persuasive arguments supporting the “compromised” contention.
Again, he is not arguing with your “feeling” that the 911 provides an amazing driving experience — given how many knowledgeable folks agree with you it would be an unwinnable argument. But — (1) what Porsche themselves do when ultimate performance is the target (back to 962’s for crying out loud) plus (2) their own designers and engineers trying to get rid of it for street use back in the 70’s, plus (3) the automotive world is unanimous in rejecting rear-engine as a starting point for their vehicle engineering. These are ALL facts — and persuasive arguments supporting the “compromised” contention.
The real Porsche racers started with the 550, then the 904, the 908, then the 917, through the 956 and 962 to the just retired 919 LMP1 WEC Championship car which has won LeMans three years in a row. Now THAT is a blueprint for the future of Porsche.
The 919 uses a mid-engine V-4 to drive the rear wheels with two turbos - one to turbocharge the V-4 and the other to run a generator to charge a large Li-Ion battery which powers two electric motors in the front wheel hubs. The turbocharged 2.0 liter V-4 only develops 500 HP, but the electric motors add another 500 HP in short bursts, such that the 919 is so adept in decelerating and re-accelerating that it is as fast down the Mulsanne straight with the two chicanes as the 962 was running it in a straight line !
The next "911" will likely be developed from the pioneering work Porsche has done on the 918 and the 919 using the 919 powertrain architecture configuration as a starting point and will be decidedly mid-engine. I.e. the CG will be near the middle of the car, all four wheels will drive, and the prime mover will be hybrid gas/electric.
Corvette will end up here, also, eventually because world is changing - once the sea starts to rise dramatically and costs the really rich, real money, (since most of their real estate is within 10 miles of an ocean), you can bet that these green technologies will be exploited to limit the damage from CO2 emissions. We are almost there now.
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sunsalem (12-15-2017)
12-16-2017, 08:00 AM
#52
Melting Slicks
The ME has been seen testing against the 911/S Turbo which has a starting price of 191k reg 911/TT is 161k. I still feel the new base ME will have a starting MSRP between 69k to 79k with more powerful versions well north of that. I just recently sold my ME Audi R8, it was a wonderful car other than repair cost when she broke (A/C compressor 799 in parts with a repair well over 5k because they had to pull the motor). ME cars are more difficult to work on, which will be a challenge for the dealer network and training their mechanics. I been on a waiting list for two years now & hoping to be the 1st ME owner in my area. Time will tell on ME pricing, I just feel GM would have a difficult time selling more than a few cars at a price point north of 150k+. Their dealer network/experience & marketing doesn’t support that luxury space compared to Porsche, McLaren, BMW, Ferrari, Audi & Lambo. You can’t compare the Ford GT to the C8 ME that is a one off specialty hyper car that was built as a race car 1st to compete in the 24 Hours of Le Mans. GM could make many of the Less expensive ME & use their top of the line version limited version for their race car in the 24 hour Le Mans & racing programs. They do this today with the Z06.
Last edited by fasttoys; 12-16-2017 at 08:02 AM.
12-16-2017, 11:33 AM
#53
Le Mans Master
The ME has been seen testing against the 911/S Turbo which has a starting price of 191k reg 911/TT is 161k. I still feel the new base ME will have a starting MSRP between 69k to 79k with more powerful versions well north of that. I just recently sold my ME Audi R8, it was a wonderful car other than repair cost when she broke (A/C compressor 799 in parts with a repair well over 5k because they had to pull the motor). ME cars are more difficult to work on, which will be a challenge for the dealer network and training their mechanics. I been on a waiting list for two years now & hoping to be the 1st ME owner in my area. Time will tell on ME pricing, I just feel GM would have a difficult time selling more than a few cars at a price point north of 150k+. Their dealer network/experience & marketing doesn’t support that luxury space compared to Porsche, McLaren, BMW, Ferrari, Audi & Lambo. You can’t compare the Ford GT to the C8 ME that is a one off specialty hyper car that was built as a race car 1st to compete in the 24 Hours of Le Mans. GM could make many of the Less expensive ME & use their top of the line version limited version for their race car in the 24 hour Le Mans & racing programs. They do this today with the Z06.
The current Corvette demographic does not bode well for the future of the car. GM needs to expand both the demographic and the brand. That’s why I believe we are seeing thenbeginnings of a sub brand. FE and ME platformsmare not mutually exclusive. Just look at the Ferrari California and the 488. Looking at the changes they made to rhe assembly line in BG suggests a very flexible process capable of producing different rypes of vehicles. And one thing GM has excelled at w the Corvette has been producing a car w great performance at a price point significantly below other makes. However, because of the perceived lack of sophistication (ie interior, pushrods, leafsprings), the Corvette has always suffered from getting “left handed” compliments w the qualifier being “Its very good FOR A CORVETTE”. You never hear that w Porsche. Time to change that. And GM has the scale to change that
Last edited by Dominic Sorresso; 12-16-2017 at 11:45 AM.
12-16-2017, 12:41 PM
#54
Burning Brakes
The votes are already in.
The average Corvette buyer is 63 years old.
If GM wants to continue to sell Corvette, they need to replace the generation that is about to die off.
They need to retain the current MSRP with the next C8 generation, and go exclusively mid-engine.
The average Corvette buyer is 63 years old.
If GM wants to continue to sell Corvette, they need to replace the generation that is about to die off.
They need to retain the current MSRP with the next C8 generation, and go exclusively mid-engine.
12-16-2017, 01:29 PM
#55
Le Mans Master
GM is not so sure of this. Both platforms will run together until a clear choice from buyers emerge. They think about 2 years still depends on how we vote with our wallet! ME would be the clear choice if the price is Low enough. Other manufactures sure aren't reasonable with 150k plus stickers.
12-18-2017, 01:36 PM
#56
Burning Brakes
The money spent is not just for ME it is an investment in new assembly line technics that make running multiple platforms and changing platforms much quicker and efficient. Think of it as evolving into a 3D Printer some day! No more chains pulling the units along more robotics instead. It is already been used to move parts around the factory now it is going to be used to move units on the assembly line.
12-18-2017, 01:44 PM
#57
Le Mans Master
The money spent is not just for ME it is an investment in new assembly line technics that make running multiple platforms and changing platforms much quicker and efficient. Think of it as evolving into a 3D Printer some day! No more chains pulling the units along more robotics instead. It is already been used to move parts around the factory now it is going to be used to move units on the assembly line.
Regardless, u don’t make an enginnering and development commitment like the one for an ME platform on a hope that it works. I just don’t envision Mary Barra telling the Board “Hey we’re going to try this out and see what happens.”
12-18-2017, 02:02 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
Just think about the individual carrier, telling the robots in each area what is needed on that unit only. Robots that adapt instead of being fixed in their task eliminating down time of retooling and changing the jigs, now required on currant assembly lines during model changes.
12-18-2017, 03:53 PM
#60
Since the ZR1 was released there haven't been any new "spy shots" of whatever we've been spying on.