Should C8 have springs instead of leafs? - Page 3 - CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion

Notices
C8 General Discussion The place to discuss the next generation of Corvette, be it mid-engine, Zora, or whatever form it may take.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Should C8 have springs instead of leafs?

Reply

 
 
 
Old 12-16-2017, 12:21 PM
  #41  
torquetube
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: West coast CA
Posts: 3,720
Thanked 119 Times in 108 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
Does this mean that the ME Vette will corner like the 1990 Sedan Deville that I had decades ago?
Well, exactly the same correlation=causation argument was made in this very thread regarding the Camaro ZL1. So if you believe that the shape of the spring is what matters, then that is the conclusion you should come to.

(The shape of the spring isn't what matters).
torquetube is online now  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to torquetube For This Useful Post:
JerriVette (12-17-2017), Kappa (12-16-2017)
Old 12-16-2017, 12:55 PM
  #42  
jimmyb
CF Senior Member
 
jimmyb's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 5,818
Thanked 649 Times in 359 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by elegant View Post
Sure hope the poster is either kidding and knows that color assignment on a CAD drawing is done by a backroom engineer.

I got a call from Tadge three minutes ago that because of the above post, all MEs with now come standard with Velocity Yellow coils and a Jake emblem and for the MEs, we now get to specify, at a $295 color upcharge, every color of every part on our suspension, with a $495 color upcharge, specifying color choice for every part of our motors.
Hence the
jimmyb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2017, 04:34 PM
  #43  
firstvettesoon
CF Senior Member
 
firstvettesoon's Avatar
 
Member Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 987
Thanked 704 Times in 246 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
Does this mean that the ME Vette will corner like the 1990 Sedan Deville that I had decades ago?

And here on this forum I was led to believe that the Vette's leaf springs were the pinnacle of suspension engineering.
This is 2017. Those aren't run of the mill coil springs. They are helical compression leaf springs! The best of both worlds!

Last edited by firstvettesoon; 12-16-2017 at 04:35 PM.
firstvettesoon is online now  
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to firstvettesoon For This Useful Post:
elegant (12-16-2017), Shaka (12-17-2017), Tool Hoarder (12-17-2017)
Old 12-17-2017, 12:26 AM
  #44  
Tool Hoarder
CF Senior Member
 
Tool Hoarder's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2013
Location: Virginia Beach Virginia
Posts: 3,167
Thanked 235 Times in 161 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by firstvettesoon View Post
This is 2017. Those aren't run of the mill coil springs. They are helical compression leaf springs! The best of both worlds!


I'm a huge composite monoleaf fan, but that right there is funny.
Tool Hoarder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2017, 09:34 PM
  #45  
wishihad1-2
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Posts: 276
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JerriVette View Post
Leaf springs are lighter and less expensive.
Leaf springs are more expensive than coils. That is even true if you compare the leaf springs under a Chevy pickup vs the coils Dodge uses in their coil spring live axle. The leaf spring in a pickup saves money because you don't have to buy all the other parts (additional trailing links, lateral link, etc). In the case of the Corvette's fiberglass spring they are definitely more expensive than coils. When GM did the C4 they were probably just emammored with the tech. When the C5 came around GM was trying to figure out how to package the suspension (even considered pushrods + bellcranks) they decided the low profile of the leaf spring made the most sense.


Originally Posted by range96 View Post
A few grams lighter, too. I'm not so sure if it is as linear, though.
Linear can be a property of the spring alone but when you are talking automotive suspension it's a combination of the spring and suspension kinematics.

General comment, a few people have credited David Hill with the dual mount leaf spring setup. That was an idea GM copied from Fiat but GM combined it with their fiberglass spring technology. The C4 was the first car to used the combination.

Originally Posted by torquetube View Post
The commentariat gets hung up on comparatively unimportant stuff that's easy to see and ignores the subtle things that actually matter. Tire compound, geometry, rate, etc. make a car fast. Not the shape of the spring or the color of the shocks.

The transverse leafs are an elegant solution. I'd like to see them stay. But any number of mundane design or production details could tip the balance one way or the other, details that have nothing to do with scoring the ultimate 'ring time.

It's a passenger car and consumer product. Everything is a trade-off. If for example GM wants adjustable ride height on the C8 so it doesn't scrape on speed bumps, they will choose coil springs only because they're easier to integrate with a height adjuster. Big deal.
This post really gets it.
wishihad1-2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to wishihad1-2 For This Useful Post:
RedLS6 (12-22-2017), Shaka (12-18-2017)
Old 12-17-2017, 10:00 PM
  #46  
JerriVette
CF Senior Member
 
JerriVette's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2003
Location: Bergen county NJ
Posts: 9,885
Thanked 575 Times in 443 Posts
Default

Thanks wish I had 1-2 ..I never knew the Chevy pickup trucks had plastic leaf springs like corvettes..

I could care less what springs GM chooses for the rear mid engine corvette as long as it's an awesome performance vehicle...

Happy holidays
JerriVette is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 12:52 PM
  #47  
wishihad1-2
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Posts: 276
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JerriVette View Post
Thanks wish I had 1-2 ..I never knew the Chevy pickup trucks had plastic leaf springs like corvettes..

I could care less what springs GM chooses for the rear mid engine corvette as long as it's an awesome performance vehicle...

Happy holidays
Sorry, didn't mean to confuse, I don't think GM has ever used fiberglass leaf springs in their full size pickups. They did use them from the factory in some versions of the Astro van and they are an option for heavy trucks
https://liteflex.com/

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge all recent full size pickups have used conventional steel leaf springs with the exception of the Chrysler coil spring + live axle setup on the recent Dodge trucks. The important point was that the leaf springs (even steel ones) are more expensive than coil springs by a significant margin. The savings is in the other parts and assembly steps that aren't needed with a leaf spring design. That's one of the things people overlook when assuming the Corvette leaf spring is a cost saving measure. Well in the truck it only saves money because you don't buy all those suspension arms. The Corvette still has all those suspension arms. The other point is why would GM use this cost savings technology only on the most expensive car they sell, but not the many cheaper models?
wishihad1-2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2017, 11:36 AM
  #48  
FrankLP
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
FrankLP's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2010
Location: Omaha Nebraska
Posts: 2,658
Thanked 197 Times in 173 Posts
2016 C5 of the Year Finalist
Default

And the latest leaked CAD image (originally from ZERV) of the front area here in this thread:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...e-zerv-10.html

Last edited by FrankLP; 12-21-2017 at 11:38 AM.
FrankLP is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2017, 03:30 AM
  #49  
Suns_PSD
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,935
Thanked 186 Times in 163 Posts
Default

Either can be made to work well. Whatever GM deems best for the application once considering weight/ packaging/ cost/ performance/ etc.. is fine with me. I'm sure it will be great.
Suns_PSD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2017, 11:21 AM
  #50  
RedLS6
CF Senior Member
 
RedLS6's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2003
Location: Cary NC
Posts: 709
Thanked 55 Times in 38 Posts
Default

Neither coil spring nor transverse leaf matters much when your alignment drifts all over the map at the track or under spirited driving because your eccentrics slipped. I wish they would give us a lockable system similar to the camber kits on the market. Not that these kits are expensive, they're not.

Last edited by RedLS6; 12-22-2017 at 11:23 AM.
RedLS6 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2018, 11:41 PM
  #51  
johnglenntwo
CF Senior Member
 
johnglenntwo's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2010
Location: Beaverton OR
Posts: 6,208
Thanked 128 Times in 113 Posts
Default Same as C8R! ;)

The Ford GT does a lot of cross design but certainly didn't hold that race car prowess enough.
Keep it simple stupid maybe for the base?)!

Last edited by johnglenntwo; 05-26-2018 at 01:21 PM.
johnglenntwo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 10:01 AM
  #52  
RussM05
CF Senior Member
 
RussM05's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2012
Location: Thomas Texas
Posts: 1,176
Thanked 59 Times in 41 Posts
Default

Please stop calling it a "leaf" spring. The Corvette hasn't had a leaf spring since the early 1980's. Leaf springs are a stack of thinner steel and a composite spring is one piece. The major difference is the composite spring is much lighter than the steel leaf spring.
RussM05 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 10:19 AM
  #53  
JoesC5
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 1999
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 38,629
Thanked 1,117 Times in 824 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RussM05 View Post
Please stop calling it a "leaf" spring. The Corvette hasn't had a leaf spring since the early 1980's. Leaf springs are a stack of thinner steel and a composite spring is one piece. The major difference is the composite spring is much lighter than the steel leaf spring.
A leaf spring can have one component or multiple components.

The 1967 base Camaro/Firebird had rear leaf springs and each of them only had one leaf(named a mono leaf) and made of steel. The thickness of the mono leaf varied along it's length.




Do you believe that this is a photo of a coil spring rear suspension or a torsion bar rear suspension since the steel spring does not have multiple leafs?



Last edited by JoesC5; 05-27-2018 at 11:05 AM.
JoesC5 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JoesC5 For This Useful Post:
SBC_and_a_stick (05-30-2018)
Old 05-27-2018, 03:07 PM
  #54  
johnglenntwo
CF Senior Member
 
johnglenntwo's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2010
Location: Beaverton OR
Posts: 6,208
Thanked 128 Times in 113 Posts
Default !? ;)

Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
A leaf spring can have one component or multiple components.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_spring
johnglenntwo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 03:17 PM
  #55  
RussM05
CF Senior Member
 
RussM05's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2012
Location: Thomas Texas
Posts: 1,176
Thanked 59 Times in 41 Posts
Default

The Corvette never had a mono steel leaf spring. My 1969 Camaro did.

I restored a 1971 Corvette with the multi-leaf rear leaf spring. The leaves were assembled with a bolt in the middle. All but one of the leaves had cracked in 2 at the hole for the bolt. I picked up a used spring at a swap meet and rebuilt it. The leaves were sandwiched with plastic between each leaf. Damn thing was really heavy.

Last edited by RussM05; 05-27-2018 at 03:25 PM.
RussM05 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 03:18 PM
  #56  
JoesC5
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 1999
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 38,629
Thanked 1,117 Times in 824 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by johnglenntwo View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_spring
As usual, your post doesn't offer anything of substance.
JoesC5 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 03:28 PM
  #57  
JoesC5
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 1999
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 38,629
Thanked 1,117 Times in 824 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RussM05 View Post
The Corvette never had a mono steel leaf spring. My 1969 Camaro did.
I restored a 1971 Corvette with the multi-leaf rear leaf spring. The leaves were assembled with a bolt in the middle. All but one of the leaves had cracked in 2 at the hole for the bold. I picked up a used spring at a swap meet and rebuilt it. The leaves were sandwiched with plastic between each leaf. Damn thing was really heavy.
You just admitted that a leaf spring can be a mono leaf made of steel, completely contradicting what you earlier posted.

"Leaf springs are a stack of thinner steel and a composite spring is one piece." is what you posted..

Your 1969 Camaro had leaf springs and it did not have a stack of thinner steel. It was comprised of a single leaf and was made of steel.

BTW, the material a spring is made of does not determine what type of spring it is(ie:. leaf, coil, or torsion bar). A leaf spring can be made of steel or composite and can be of a single leaf design or of a multi-leaf design.
JoesC5 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 03:41 PM
  #58  
johnglenntwo
CF Senior Member
 
johnglenntwo's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2010
Location: Beaverton OR
Posts: 6,208
Thanked 128 Times in 113 Posts
Default Not unless you open it! ;)

Originally Posted by RussM05 View Post
Please stop calling it a "leaf" spring. The Corvette hasn't had a leaf spring since the early 1980's. Leaf springs are a stack of thinner steel and a composite spring is one piece. The major difference is the composite spring is much lighter than the steel leaf spring.
Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
As usual, your post doesn't offer anything of substance.
It then simply defines the truth perfectly invalidating his statement.
Like bringing up 1950 truck pics indirectly doesn't (as usual!).
johnglenntwo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 04:00 PM
  #59  
RussM05
CF Senior Member
 
RussM05's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2012
Location: Thomas Texas
Posts: 1,176
Thanked 59 Times in 41 Posts
Default

I believe Chevrolet called it a composite spring when they switched over from steel leaf spring to composite fiberglass. Not sure of the exact year but it was around 1980. I understood it was mainly to reduce weight. Around that time, the aftermarket started selling a replacement composite rear springs for any of the C3's. The vendors advertised it would improved handling and reduced weight.

Getting back to the original subject, I think the ME design will use coil springs for packaging reasons.

JoesC5..... if you've been drinking, I suggest putting your keyboard down and enjoy the holiday weekend.
RussM05 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2018, 06:07 PM
  #60  
JoesC5
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 1999
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 38,629
Thanked 1,117 Times in 824 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RussM05 View Post
I believe Chevrolet called it a composite spring when they switched over from steel leaf spring to composite fiberglass. Not sure of the exact year but it was around 1980. I understood it was mainly to reduce weight. Around that time, the aftermarket started selling a replacement composite rear springs for any of the C3's. The vendors advertised it would improved handling and reduced weight.

Getting back to the original subject, I think the ME design will use coil springs for packaging reasons.

JoesC5..... if you've been drinking, I suggest putting your keyboard down and enjoy the holiday weekend.
Unfortunately, your lack of knowledge is forcing you to believe that the leaf spring only has only one configuration, that of having multiple leafs. As I've been trying to explain to you, that is not the case.

From a company that knows a lot about leaf springs.

"There are four basic types of leaf spring systems in the racing industry today.

Multi-Leaf Spring – This type of leaf spring has more than 1 leaf in its assembly. It consists of a center bolt that properly aligns the leaves and clips to resist its individual leaves from twisting and shifting.

Mono Leaf Spring – Consists of one main leaf where the material’s width and thickness are constant. Example – the leaf will be 2 1/2” wide throughout its length, and .323 in thickness throughout its entire length. The spring rate is lighter than other styles of leaf springs and usually requires a device to control positive and negative torque loads as well as requiring coil springs to hold the chassis at ride height.

Parabolic Single Leaf – Consists of one main leaf with a tapered thickness. This style is sufficient to control axle torque and dampening, while maintaining ride height. The advantage of this style is that the spring is lighter than the multi-leaf.

Fiberglass Leaf Spring – The fiberglass leaf spring is made of a mixture of plastic fibers and resin; it is lighter than all other springs. However, the cost is three times greater. The disadvantage is that they produce inconsistent spring rates. In addition, fiberglass springs are sensitive to heat. The resins break down when exposed to heat and heat cycles (produced from exhaust and/or brake systems) which will cause the resin in the spring to become brittle, resulting in the spring collapsing. Another problem occurs with inconsistent resin mix which will cause the leaf to splinter and break. Furthermore, the fiberglass spring is susceptible to damage from rocks and debris."

https://landrumspring.com/technical/...l-information/

Maybe this site will help you out when you are designing your next leaf spring. https://www.engineersedge.com/materi...ing-design.htm

Or this one https://ijirset.com/upload/may/12_DESIGN.pdf

Last edited by JoesC5; 05-27-2018 at 07:29 PM.
JoesC5 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Should C8 have springs instead of leafs?


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: