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Old 12-26-2017, 04:55 PM
  #321  
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Originally Posted by Quinten33 View Post
Turbos have come a long way. Turbo lag is really only found in sub-$23,000 Vehicles that use turbochargers for advertising and downsizing. Higher displacement engines put out more exhaust gases and therefore spool up Turbos faster. And with two throttle bodies instead of one, the car should rev from 1000rpm to redline much quicker, also reducing turbo lag. Those appear to be decent size turbos, maybe somewhere around 55mm. I’m curious to see it they’re going to use boost by gear. It’s a common thing in drag builds and can also be found McLarens. Some of us want a naturally aspirated V8, but what about a Naturally aspirated V10 as well? GM would never do it, but a 5-liter N/A DOHC V10 with a high(9000rpm) redline would be epic. It worked with the Lexus LFA.
That's not true at all. Even the best turbos on the market have lag. Using 2 turbos instead of 1 is not on par with what we have seen in the best cars. Even if GM did implement its patent mentioned earlier, it would only be on par with a Toyota from the early 90's.

Compare the 911 range, only the Turbo S has dynamic lag which keeps the throttle opened to reduced lag:
"The engines now also have a dynamic boost function, which improves throttle response during spirited driving. It maintains the boost pressure during load changes - i.e. when the accelerator pedal is briefly released. This is achieved by interrupting fuel injection, while the throttle valve remains partially open. As a result, the engine responds to changing throttle applications with practically no delay. The effects of this function are particularly pronounced in the Sport and Sport Plus modes."
http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=963
^if you buy the second best 911 it won't have this feature.

Then there is Audi, with electric powered compressors:
"The EPC draws up to 7kW of power from the 48V system, spinning up to its maximum 70,000rpm in just 250 milliseconds and giving the engine’s exhaust-driven turbos a boost-building head start."
https://www.goauto.com.au/future-mod...-04/13922.html
^if you don't buy the top of the line Audi you won't get this system.

As far as I can tell, anti-lag is not a standard feature on most turbo cars nowadays. If the Corvette debuts with the throttle response that is worse than a early 90s Toyota Supra that's not really acceptable.

NA V10? Sign me up. Possibly the best engine arrangement of all time.

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Old 12-26-2017, 05:11 PM
  #322  
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Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick View Post
That's not true at all. Even the best turbos on the market have lag. Using 2 turbos instead of 1 is not on par with what we have seen in the best cars. Even if GM did implement its patent mentioned earlier, it would only be on par with a Toyota from the early 90's.

Compare the 911 range, only the Turbo S has dynamic lag which keeps the throttle opened to reduced lag:
"The engines now also have a dynamic boost function, which improves throttle response during spirited driving. It maintains the boost pressure during load changes - i.e. when the accelerator pedal is briefly released. This is achieved by interrupting fuel injection, while the throttle valve remains partially open. As a result, the engine responds to changing throttle applications with practically no delay. The effects of this function are particularly pronounced in the Sport and Sport Plus modes."
http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=963
^if you buy the second best 911 it won't have this feature.

Then there is Audi, with electric powered compressors:
"The EPC draws up to 7kW of power from the 48V system, spinning up to its maximum 70,000rpm in just 250 milliseconds and giving the engineís exhaust-driven turbos a boost-building head start."
https://www.goauto.com.au/future-mod...-04/13922.html
^if you don't buy the top of the line Audi you won't get this system.

As far as I can tell, anti-lag is not a standard feature on most turbo cars nowadays. If the Corvette debuts with the throttle response that is worse than a early 90s Toyota Supra that's not really acceptable.

NA V10? Sign me up. Possibly the best engine arrangement of all time.
That design looks very similar to what Iíve seen in the 720s and 488 and they won performance car of the year and MT best drivers car, and in both reviews they mentioned howís there was virtually zero lag. It wonít be as instant as a blower but that doesnít mean itíll be worse.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:34 PM
  #323  
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Originally Posted by tbrenny33 View Post
That design looks very similar to what I’ve seen in the 720s and 488 and they won performance car of the year and MT best drivers car, and in both reviews they mentioned how’s there was virtually zero lag. It won’t be as instant as a blower but that doesn’t mean it’ll be worse.
http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/why-fe...bos-1678575660

Ferrari defines zero turbo lag as "less than 1 second response."

http://www.motoring.com.au/ferrari-defends-turbo-49681/
"Asked at the Geneva show exactly how Ferrari measures turbo lag, Ferrari CEO Amedeo Felisa said it was “the time needed for the engine to go from settle condition to 80 per cent of torque'"

Even 1 second to full boost is at least 4 times longer than an electric driven compressor. Turbo lag is still too ugly to quote, which is why you'll only find lag quoted for 48V spun compressors. What we're stuck with is subjective BS like virtual, effectively zero, and so forth. Don't buy the marketing bull.

However, if I were to see a hot vee with twin scroll turbochargers and an anti-lag system that keeps the throttle open then I'd say ok, looks promising.

So far what we got is just two turbos, which is more like a base Carrera 911. If MT did their homework right, the lag is .75 seconds to 3 seconds. That is 3 to 12 times more lag than an electrically driven compressor depending on where you are in the rev range. Stunning to me, see minute 7:

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Old 12-26-2017, 05:53 PM
  #324  
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Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick View Post
Ok, but how does the CAD jive with this system? I see two equal sized turbos in the CAD not a high pressure and a low pressure unit in series. There is no way the CAD embodies the patent.
Looks like diesel application which the 2 stage increases pressure substantially.
The C8 has a bi turbo arrangement, IE one for each bank for odd and even firings. I don't know how they address lag. This is a fun project for GM engineers and it is going to be great to discover American genius in this courageous endeavor. Zora has probably given his blessings from above.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:09 PM
  #325  
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Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick View Post
No hot vee, better hope GM has some patented anti-lag trickery in there somewhere.
Good. For those of us who want to modify the car the Hot-V setups work great for stock, suck if you want to upgrade.

Originally Posted by JerriVette View Post
Hey buddy...I don't have a problem having GM building you a 140 grand twinturbo corvette..it's cool as hell..

There is always the options packages of 1LT, 2Lt, 3Lt and I think there is even room for big spenders like you to get a 4LT interiors lathered with soft supple leathers and carbon fibers if that's your thing..

I don't want to drop the coin for twin turbo blah blah blah..I got better things to spend my money on..

That said...a 500 hp naturally aspirated LT1 v8 set mid ship in the rear of this new beauty with a dct and I'll pay whatever GM wants to charge for the dct so slow your roll...it's probably the same 4 grand or so that Porsche charges tops..

Let me have that targa roof panel that slides back behind the seats or allows me to lift it off.,.i don't care which...

And I'll drop what you so proudly call cheap...

I always hear these words inexpensive, cheap when discussing a 60 grand plus sports car ...

Give me a break already...

I could buy a dosen or more zr1 s for cash if I wanted...

Not everybody jerks off to 6 figure sports cars
GM has shown they cannot build and sell a 150K car.

The Z06/ZR1 are 55K Corvettes with a bunch of add ons. They do not come with the high engineering and development cost this car will.

So you can't count that by saying "They sold 2000 ZR'1 in 2 weeks" because they need to sell this in mass to pay for it, not a bolt on car where 80 percent of the engineering costs are already covered.

I suspect the pricing will be more inline with what we are used to seeing.

GM has failed every single time they try to make a high dollar car and either they will price it right, or they will price it at 150K.

The few 'gotta have it''s will buy one and you'll see steep discounts.

Personally I'm genuinely excited. The C7 was a far superior C6, the C6 was a better C5. They were always trying to compete against something they were not.

Now to see them compete against the other with the same platform and releasing themselves from the constraints of that platform.

We'll see how good they really are now.

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Old 12-26-2017, 06:34 PM
  #326  
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Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick View Post
http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/why-fe...bos-1678575660

Ferrari defines zero turbo lag as "less than 1 second response."

http://www.motoring.com.au/ferrari-defends-turbo-49681/
"Asked at the Geneva show exactly how Ferrari measures turbo lag, Ferrari CEO Amedeo Felisa said it was ďthe time needed for the engine to go from settle condition to 80 per cent of torque'"

Even 1 second to full boost is at least 4 times longer than an electric driven compressor. Turbo lag is still too ugly to quote, which is why you'll only find lag quoted for 48V spun compressors. What we're stuck with is subjective BS like virtual, effectively zero, and so forth. Don't buy the marketing bull.

However, if I were to see a hot vee with twin scroll turbochargers and an anti-lag system that keeps the throttle open then I'd say ok, looks promising.

So far what we got is just two turbos, which is more like a base Carrera 911. If MT did their homework right, the lag is .75 seconds to 3 seconds. That is 3 to 12 times more lag than an electrically driven compressor depending on where you are in the rev range. Stunning to me, see minute 7:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISIUGwt_t6w
No lag in this 911.

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Old 12-26-2017, 06:40 PM
  #327  
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Wow, no one has driven the ME’s turbo motor and we are already complaining about its turbo lag. Let’s give GM a break and see how it works in real life.

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Old 12-26-2017, 06:48 PM
  #328  
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Originally Posted by elegant View Post
Wow, no one has driven the MEís turbo motor and we are already complaining about its turbo lag. Letís give GM a break and see how it works in real life.
Yeah. I canít wait for the next round of spy shots!
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:58 PM
  #329  
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Originally Posted by Shaka
No lag in this 911.

You cannot tell lag from a video.
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:02 PM
  #330  
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Then why are we looking at CAD leaks if all we should do is wait for the test drive?

Truth is you can tell something from the turbo arrangement from these CADs. It's not a hot vee like Panamera V8, AMG GT R V8, or BMW M.
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:54 PM
  #331  
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Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick View Post
Then why are we looking at CAD leaks if all we should do is wait for the test drive?

Truth is you can tell something from the turbo arrangement from these CADs. It's not a hot vee like Panamera V8, AMG GT R V8, or BMW M.
Yeah, those none of those AMG turbo engines have noticeable lag. But they use small turbochargers, which donít require as much gas to spin up. The E43 AMG has a Twin Turbo six cylinder that makes somewhere around 35lbs of boost from the factory, which is absolutely nuts.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:25 PM
  #332  
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Originally Posted by Quinten33 View Post
Yeah, those none of those AMG turbo engines have noticeable lag. But they use small turbochargers, which donít require as much gas to spin up. The E43 AMG has a Twin Turbo six cylinder that makes somewhere around 35lbs of boost from the factory, which is absolutely nuts.
Oh, which one? I see that it makes 16 psi:
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the...ew/2100001099/

I believe the AMG A45 is the frontruner in boost, something like 25psi. AMG is definitely at the peak of turbocharger tech, especially given their F1 dominance.

AMG E63 S is hot vee and makes 600hp out of 4 liters. In 5.5L trim it could theoretically add up to 825hp. So hot vees are good for top power as well.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:17 PM
  #333  
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Originally Posted by JerriVette View Post
Hey buddy...I don't have a problem having GM building you a 140 grand twinturbo corvette..it's cool as hell..

There is always the options packages of 1LT, 2Lt, 3Lt and I think there is even room for big spenders like you to get a 4LT interiors lathered with soft supple leathers and carbon fibers if that's your thing..

I don't want to drop the coin for twin turbo blah blah blah..I got better things to spend my money on..

That said...a 500 hp naturally aspirated LT1 v8 set mid ship in the rear of this new beauty with a dct and I'll pay whatever GM wants to charge for the dct so slow your roll...it's probably the same 4 grand or so that Porsche charges tops..

Let me have that targa roof panel that slides back behind the seats or allows me to lift it off.,.i don't care which...

And I'll drop what you so proudly call cheap...

I always hear these words inexpensive, cheap when discussing a 60 grand plus sports car ...

Give me a break already...

I could buy a dosen or more zr1 s for cash if I wanted...

Not everybody jerks off to 6 figure sports cars
Well then buddy. GM already makes your inexpensive Vett. See C7 Stingray/ GS. There your dream car.

Many off us want more than that from our cars.

Drive a 458 Italia then tell me that the Corvette Z06/ Z07 is not full of compromises. I have a 458 and it's in a different league completely. Not because Ferrari has better technology it's because they build the best car with the best materials and then charge for what they build.

There no comparison. I love the Corvette and I currently have number 12 or so with a 2016 Z06 Z07 Callaway SC757. It's a 130k plus car and still has major compromises. Namely the Interior quality is exactly what you get in a 3lt Stingray. So a car costing 2 times the cost of a Stingray still has the exact same interior expect for badging. The paint work is exactly like a 55k inexpensive entry level Vett. Yes 55k is inexpensive. Heck there are Ford Mustang and Chevrolet Camero that cost more than a Stingray.

In addition the A8 that GM promised was on par with Porsche PDK is no where close to compare with the PFK or the Getrag DCT in the Ferrari. The A8 is terrible in comparison in both auto mode and shift speed is a joke for a 130k car.

There 30k VW that have faster shift quality than the top of line Corvette. That the compromise GM makes to keep guys like you happy.

GM compromised on this 130k car and it has the same transmission that comes in my Chevrolet High Country pick up truck.

BTW The DCT is going to be far more than a 4 k option. Porsche built the own transmission in house and it comes as standard transmission on everything from a Cayman to the Cayenne SUV.

So some of us want the best car GM can build and are more than willing to pay for the privilege of owning one.

It's not that we jerks off to 250k sports car but we are educated enough to understand that you don't spend 60k and get a car with the same refinement the as a 250k car.

So again your cheap that cool and is why you could by 10 ZR1 as you state and everyone will be a compromised 140k car with a 60k interior and a truck motor and transmission. But yes that a great deal for those of us that want a real super car built by GM.

Others of us too who worked hard and appreciate the refinement that comes with a European super car and we are willing to pay for it.

So don't be a dick because other would like GM to show the world that they too can build a refined super car and one that does not need a asterisk about what a great performer it is for the money.

Not everyone has unrealistic expectation. We just want GM to build a world class car with No Compromises.

That does not make us jerks offs. In fact I see it just the opposite. Some jerks off want 200k technology but want to pay 60k.

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Old 12-26-2017, 09:30 PM
  #334  
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Apparently 60 people have been walked out related to these leaks.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:30 PM
  #335  
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Originally Posted by vetteman41960
Week then buddy. GM already makes your inexpensive Vett. See C7 Stingray/ GS. There your dream car.

Many off us want more than that from our cars.

Drive a 458 Italia then tell me that the Corvette Z06/ Z07 is not full of compromises.

There no comparison. I live the Corvette and I currently have number 12 or so with a 2016 Z06 Z07 Callaway SC757. It's a 130k plus car and still has major compromises. Namely the Interior quality is exactly what you get in a 3lt Stingray. So a car costing 2 times the cost of a Stingray still has the exact same interior expect for badging.

In addition the A8 that GM promised was on part with Porsche PDK is no where close to compare .

GM compromised on this 130k car and it has the same transmission that comes in my Chevrolet High Country pick up truck.

BTW The DCT is going to be far more than a 4 k option. Porsche built the own transmission in house and it comes as standard transmission on everything from a Cayman to the Cayenne SUV.

So buddy some of us want the best car GM can build and are more than willing to pay for the privilege of owning one.

It's not that we jerks off to 250k sports car but we are educated enough to understand that you don't spend 60k and get a car with the same refinement the as a 250k car.

So again your cheap that cool and is why you could by 10 Ferrari or Lamborghini as you state.

Others of us who worked hard and appreciate the refinement that comes with a European super car and we are willing to pay for it.

So don't be a dick because other would like GM to show the world that they too can build a refined super car and one that does not need a asterisk about what a great performer it is for the money.

Not everyone has unrealistic expectation. We just want GM to build a world class car with No Compromises.

That does not make us jerks offs. In fact I see it just the opposite. Some jerks off want 200k technology but want to pay 60k.
The corvette will never be super car. They will build a car that will give a super car a run for its money at half the price though. If your looking for a super car, GM is not for you.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:05 PM
  #336  
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Originally Posted by LT1 Z51 View Post
Apparently 60 people have been walked out related to these leaks.

So the C8 is cancelled?

That is about 1/2 the Corvette team I'd guess.

Or did the not have any model security and anyone could open them?
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:12 PM
  #337  
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Originally Posted by NoOne View Post
So the C8 is cancelled?

That is about 1/2 the Corvette team I'd guess.

Or did the not have any model security and anyone could open them?
At this point, part designs would be open to far more than just the Corvette Design team. Procurement would be working with suppliers. Production engineering would be involved validating the production process. Etc.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:21 PM
  #338  
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Originally Posted by Zymurgy View Post
At this point, part designs would be open to far more than just the Corvette Design team. Procurement would be working with suppliers. Production engineering would be involved validating the production process. Etc.
That is not how it works.

Procurement handles paperwork and has no access to models or any other data.

PPAP is a ways off in the process also where you would have a larger group involved like suppliers and farther off in the future. If anything they are building one off parts and usually are not told exactly what it is for but if they are talking volume numbers most can figure it out but again this data is very compartmentalized.

Either they fired large portions of the C8 Team or someone did not have model security setup right and someone was able to open data that they should not have been able to open.

Someone not having security setup right sounds most plausible although the PT group probably has the most access but if that 60 number is anywhere near right my guess is it is the people responsible for model security.

My next guess is once one person found out that they could open stuff they couldn't word spread and a lot of other people opened those same files.

Just because you can open it doesn't mean you should.

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Old 12-26-2017, 10:36 PM
  #339  
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Originally Posted by vetteman41960 View Post
Well then buddy. GM already makes your inexpensive Vett. See C7 Stingray/ GS. There your dream car.

Many off us want more than that from our cars.

Drive a 458 Italia then tell me that the Corvette Z06/ Z07 is not full of compromises. I have a 458 and it's in a different league completely. Not because Ferrari has better technology it's because they build the best car with the best materials and then charge for what they build.

There no comparison. I love the Corvette and I currently have number 12 or so with a 2016 Z06 Z07 Callaway SC757. It's a 130k plus car and still has major compromises. Namely the Interior quality is exactly what you get in a 3lt Stingray. So a car costing 2 times the cost of a Stingray still has the exact same interior expect for badging. The paint work is exactly like a 55k inexpensive entry level Vett. Yes 55k is inexpensive. Heck there are Ford Mustang and Chevrolet Camero that cost more than a Stingray.

In addition the A8 that GM promised was on par with Porsche PDK is no where close to compare with the PFK or the Getrag DCT in the Ferrari. The A8 is terrible in comparison in both auto mode and shift speed is a joke for a 130k car.

There 30k VW that have faster shift quality than the top of line Corvette. That the compromise GM makes to keep guys like you happy.

GM compromised on this 130k car and it has the same transmission that comes in my Chevrolet High Country pick up truck.

BTW The DCT is going to be far more than a 4 k option. Porsche built the own transmission in house and it comes as standard transmission on everything from a Cayman to the Cayenne SUV.

So some of us want the best car GM can build and are more than willing to pay for the privilege of owning one.

It's not that we jerks off to 250k sports car but we are educated enough to understand that you don't spend 60k and get a car with the same refinement the as a 250k car.

So again your cheap that cool and is why you could by 10 ZR1 as you state and everyone will be a compromised 140k car with a 60k interior and a truck motor and transmission. But yes that a great deal for those of us that want a real super car built by GM.

Others of us too who worked hard and appreciate the refinement that comes with a European super car and we are willing to pay for it.

So don't be a dick because other would like GM to show the world that they too can build a refined super car and one that does not need a asterisk about what a great performer it is for the money.

Not everyone has unrealistic expectation. We just want GM to build a world class car with No Compromises.

That does not make us jerks offs. In fact I see it just the opposite. Some jerks off want 200k technology but want to pay 60k.
I think it is silly to compare Ferrari with Corvette in the first place. Different market, different volume, literally NO common ground.
Now, to call Ferrari the "best car with the best materials" is just as silly. There is literally an entire INDUSTRY of guys (like forum member Todd Cooperider) who make plenty of money doing VERY EXPENSIVE paint correction on NEW Ferraris. There are guys that do nothing but re-finish Ferrari "soft feel" dashboard trim and controls when, at 2 years old, they become sticky and gooey (fail, in other words).

Ferrari builds great cars and charges what the market will bear. But, while many Corvette owners are guilty of drinking the Kool-Aid, Ferrari has more than it's fair share of the same type owner/fans/loyalist. (they bought the FF.....I rest my case. NO Ferrari should ever be UGLY).

Last edited by jimmyb; 12-26-2017 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 12-26-2017, 11:21 PM
  #340  
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Originally Posted by NoOne View Post
That is not how it works.

Procurement handles paperwork and has no access to models or any other data.

PPAP is a ways off in the process also where you would have a larger group involved like suppliers and farther off in the future. If anything they are building one off parts and usually are not told exactly what it is for but if they are talking volume numbers most can figure it out but again this data is very compartmentalized.

Either they fired large portions of the C8 Team or someone did not have model security setup right and someone was able to open data that they should not have been able to open.

Someone not having security setup right sounds most plausible although the PT group probably has the most access but if that 60 number is anywhere near right my guess is it is the people responsible for model security.

My next guess is once one person found out that they could open stuff they couldn't word spread and a lot of other people opened those same files.

Just because you can open it doesn't mean you should.
The people walked out are not only related to the CAD. They are related to ALL LEAKS in regards to this program. Even if the information is verbal. They went thru this on the C7 release as well. A lot of supplier employees had to be reassigned due to leaks.
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-vet (12-27-2017)

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