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What was the last mid-engine car you saw that sold for under $100k, an MR2, a Fiero? Assuming you count the Porsche Boxster, that one is going for upwards of $70k now...if you add a couple of bells and whistles you are back to $100k.
Most notably the C8 isn't designed to compete with these. It's designed to compete with 488s, 911s, GTRs, LFAs, Vipers. Thinking a mid-engine Corvette will be $75k is naive.
If correct then the front engine stays and the mid is a new model. The average Corvette buyer is gone at 100k.
Alrighty then. So Corvette is not a profit center? You're going to have to prove that. If, as you are implying, "halo" cars DON'T have to make money, why is the Viper dead? Why is the Audi R8 discontinued in 2020? Etc...
Viper is dormant for a couple of reasons. 1) Dodge currently has plenty of attention with Hellcats and Demons. It doesn't need the Viper right now as a result. 2) The current design of the Viper can no long pass emissions or safety standards. As a result, it sleeps until it is needed and the economics make sense.
As for the R8, that is more complicated. The R8 and the Lamborghini Gallardo are the same car just reskinned. The design has been around 2003. While a great design, it is tired. While it gets a refresh that can work for both Lambo and Audi, sales of both are doing just fine. Audi has tons of S and RS models to bring in the average buyer. And quite frankly the Gallardo was a bit low priced by Lambo standards. Much like the Countach, the draw is not actually owning one, but the dream of owning one. Gallardo's were almost affordable for your average upper-middle class buyer and that just won't do.
What was the last mid-engine car you saw that sold for under $100k, an MR2, a Fiero? Assuming you count the Porsche Boxster, that one is going for upwards of $70k now...if you add a couple of bells and whistles you are back to $100k.
Most notably the C8 isn't designed to compete with these. It's designed to compete with 488s, 911s, GTRs, LFAs, Vipers. Thinking a mid-engine Corvette will be $75k is naive.
Viper is dormant for a couple of reasons. 1) Dodge currently has plenty of attention with Hellcats and Demons. It doesn't need the Viper right now as a result. 2) The current design of the Viper can no long pass emissions or safety standards. As a result, it sleeps until it is needed and the economics make sense.
As for the R8, that is more complicated. The R8 and the Lamborghini Gallardo are the same car just reskinned. The design has been around 2003. While a great design, it is tired. While it gets a refresh that can work for both Lambo and Audi, sales of both are doing just fine. Audi has tons of S and RS models to bring in the average buyer. And quite frankly the Gallardo was a bit low priced by Lambo standards. Much like the Countach, the draw is not actually owning one, but the dream of owning one. Gallardo's were almost affordable for your average upper-middle class buyer and that just won't do.
The Viper isn't dormant....it's DEAD. It's dead because it didn't sell in sufficient numbers to be viable. You can try to blame it's demise on many things, but the reality is that the car just didn't SELL. Safety standards, emissions, whatever aren't the reason it's gone, they are symptoms of the BIGGER problem....TERRIBLE SALES. Bad sales mean NO budget to keep the car up to current standard.
The Gen2 R8 is based on the Lamborghini Huracan, the Gen1 R8 was based on the Gallardo. The Gen2 R8 has been out since 2015 (the Huracan came out in 2014) and sadly, the Gen2 R8's big problem is it's styling, which is VERY conservative (this applies to most of the Audi lineup right now) compared to the Gen1. That won't do at that price point ($164,900 base MSRP)
The mid-engine Vette will be the fastest Corvette every produced. Why should it be priced less than modern Z06s, ZR-1s and similar?
One rumor is they may keep a front engine version as well, but it would be to Corvette what an H3 is to an H1.
The reason the front engine car (beyond the C7) rumor exists is very simple. Mid-engine architecture tends to not be very user friendly as a daily driver (there are a FEW exceptions to that), and one of the BIGGEST selling point to the current and recent Corvettes (C5/C6/C7) is their exceptional utility for a sports car. As far as the first mid-engine introduced, I doubt seriously if it will be "the fastest Corvette ever". Corvette history suggests that the first ME car will be very quick and at a more normal Corvette price point. The hot rod versions will follow. The McDonalds car did not look to have excessively large brakes or tires to imply some kind of ZR1 eating monster car.
Look at literally EVERY mid-engine car intro from Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren. The "base" car comes out first, followed 2 years later by the "specials". There have been ZERO exceptions to that.
GM is not giving up FE manual trans Corvettes thorough 2021. However, GM, along with every other major OEM has signed an agreement that automatic emergency braking (AEB) will be with us starting the 2022 model year. Additionally, because many other desired safety options, such as blind spot protection (BSP), can not physically fit on a C7 (per Tadge there is no space in the rear outer corners due to the heat exchangers there), and with more and more customers (including C7 customers) unhappy that they are without BSP and similar, there will not be a FE Corvette with or without a clutch-pedal-manual after 2021. Coincidence that that the last year for the C7 is 2021?
I have had 53 manual trans vehicles in a row. And I who said I would never own a automatic nor a DCT (even as late as one year ago) am going to get my ME even with its having only a DCT.
Clearly some CVF members have posted, “if no manual option, no ME for me.” We shall see how true that is a year or two after the ME is out.
Corvette can’t be priced at $200K, it needs to be something the middle class can aspire to. When the middle class are in the Chevy showroom buying a Malibu or Impala, they look over at the Corvette and think “someday”. If the Corvette becomes $200K, those “Corvette Dreamers” won’t even give the Corvette a second look because at $200K it becomes unobtainable.
This, once a car becomes $200k that reaches outside the price-point of a ton of people. I think if the base ME car comes out around $80k before options we would all know that with the C8Z/C8ZR1 GM would out-price the middle class and maybe even the upper middle class. I have no doubt the 850 horsepower ME car will break $150-$180k unfortunately.
What was the last mid-engine car you saw that sold for under $100k, an MR2, a Fiero? Assuming you count the Porsche Boxster, that one is going for upwards of $70k now...if you add a couple of bells and whistles you are back to $100k.
Most notably the C8 isn't designed to compete with these. It's designed to compete with 488s, 911s, GTRs, LFAs, Vipers. Thinking a mid-engine Corvette will be $75k is naive.
Straight from Porsche's website:
Only the top spec, fully loaded, boxsters/caymans cost 100k.
(And Porsche is notorious for charging $$$$ for optional equipment)
The C8 is designed to compete against Ferraris and 911s etc.. But it won't be priced like them. Corvettes have always been about performance value. Now I don't doubt a ZO6 or ZR1 spec C8 will cost 100k+.
But I stand by my prediction. GM will sell the base mid engine C8 for 65-75k. It will be a high volume car, just like the C7, the C6 , and the C5 before that. GM's 30k unit transmission order proves that. There is no way they would plan on selling those numbers if C8s cost 200k each, or even 150k. There just aren't enough customers for a Corvette at that price tag. Look at what happened to the prior Ford GT. Pretty bad *** car and reasonably priced (~150k) for what it was, and yet Ford could only sell 1-2 thousand a year.
Last edited by Corvette#2; 01-16-2018 at 05:24 AM.
Pleas explain what besides the transaxle costs so much more to produce a rear mid engine car than a front mid engine car...?
Like mentioned a thousand times already...a simple LT1 engine version should cost about the same as today's c7 give or take a few grand..
Change is tough for people in general.
The sky is falling.
If GM runs the most expensive corvette as a rear mid engine car then it would be easy to keep the c7 around for a couple of year...as a standard corvette but that has not been historically what GM does with corvettes..
corvettes have been raping exotic cars costing double or triple more as part of its heritage.
Only the top spec, fully loaded, boxsters/caymans cost 100k.
(And Porsche is notorious for charging $$$$ for optional equipment)
The C8 is designed to compete against Ferraris and 911s etc.. But it won't be priced like them. Corvettes have always been about performance value. Now I don't doubt a ZO6 or ZR1 spec C8 will cost 100k+.
But I stand by my prediction. GM will sell the base mid engine C8 for 65-75k. It will be a high volume car, just like the C7, the C6 , and the C5 before that. GM's 30k unit transmission order proves that. There is no way they would plan on selling those numbers if C8s cost 200k each, or even 150k. There just aren't enough customers for a Corvette at that price tag. Look at what happened to the prior Ford GT. Pretty bad *** car and reasonably priced (~150k) for what it was, and yet Ford could only sell 1-2 thousand a year.
I think there is a small chance that the mid-engine Vette is priced at $85k. You are giving the general too much credit though. The sticker price for a ZR-1 in 1995 was approx. $69k. The sticker price for a base 2017 Z06 is approx. $79k. The 2009 ZR-1 had a sticker price of $105k. The mid-engine Vette is not lining up to compete with Caymans (which are nothing more than Boxsters with a top). It will cost more than a Cayman. Look for it to cost a hair more than a Viper. It is a big leap forward in design. It will be a track monster, a critical darling, and wallets will open for it. Look for a decent percentage of those who might shop for a 911 or a base level Ferrari to give the mid-engine Vette a glance. It is not for the everyman. Corvette has 'sometimes' been about performance value. But with the strides forward with the performance of Camaros these days, that is the car for the everyman. Corvette is moving toward the premium market.
St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
Originally Posted by Atari_Prime
I think there is a small chance that the mid-engine Vette is priced at $85k. You are giving the general too much credit though. The sticker price for a ZR-1 in 1995 was approx. $69k. The sticker price for a base 2017 Z06 is approx. $79k. The 2009 ZR-1 had a sticker price of $105k. The mid-engine Vette is not lining up to compete with Caymans (which are nothing more than Boxsters with a top). It will cost more than a Cayman. Look for it to cost a hair more than a Viper. It is a big leap forward in design. It will be a track monster, a critical darling, and wallets will open for it. Look for a decent percentage of those who might shop for a 911 or a base level Ferrari to give the mid-engine Vette a glance. It is not for the everyman. Corvette has 'sometimes' been about performance value. But with the strides forward with the performance of Camaros these days, that is the car for the everyman. Corvette is moving toward the premium market.
If GM didn't want info known about their C8, the admins would have taken this down 2 months ago. Chances are, this info is on the wrong track, otherwise GM would demand it gone.
I have no idea what CVF’s standards are for keeping or removing material, but since GM wanted the ME’s CAD drawings taken down by all (so stated in their attorney’s communication to all media who had posted CAD drawings), and since 10 distinct, different CAD drawings are still present here (still in the “Code name ZERV” thread), GM is not controlling this forum.
And since that shows they are not, and several have separately confirmed that GM did not leak the CAD drawings and wishes they had not been made public, I can not support the thesis in the above post that the ME information in at least this thread, is wrong.
An article was just circulating around on Facebook that the highest volume seller for the C7 is the base Stingray in 1LT trim. GM would be dumb to abandon the "regular guy" who aspires to own a Corvette. We don't want Camaros. The base C8 will be $63 to $65k and be NA, manual, and RWD. The Cayman shows it can be done. The car will probably have a huge range in price from a base car to a loaded up one.
An article was just circulating around on Facebook that the highest volume seller for the C7 is the base Stingray in 1LT trim. GM would be dumb to abandon the "regular guy" who aspires to own a Corvette. We don't want Camaros. The base C8 will be $63 to $65k and be NA, manual, and RWD. The Cayman shows it can be done. The car will probably have a huge range in price from a base car to a loaded up one.
Yea that has to be the volume seller.. most people dont see the value in a grand sport or Z06.. most dont need carbon ceramics , upgraded aero etc..
Why do people automatically assume that rear engine is better for handling? Lmao. Kills me inside everytime I hear it.
Why do you say that? How do you explain the evolution in race cars over the past 6 decades?
Not trying to be argumentative. My C6 is the best handling vehicle I ever owned. My old Porsche 944 was probably the most intuitive. My old X1/9 was the most fun in many ways; certainly the most responsive. Limited experience for sure -- but it tells me something that I would like your thoughts on....
ADDENDUM -- I just realized what you meant. But, I don't know ANYBODY who thinks rear-engine is better than mid-engine or even front-engine (if the engine resides mostly behind the front wheels.) Even the 911 guys just claim to like the feel and challenge of it all (most of which Porsche has been trying to engineer out of 911s since 1973....)
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 01-17-2018 at 12:21 PM.
01-15-2018, 03:53 PM
