Kinda sad about all the engine specs
01-06-2018, 04:07 PM
#41
Safety Car
love it! very cool design and big torq with reliability from the factory coming your way! I put TT on my c5 and I disagree about reliability being poor. This engine puts 800 hp and trq at the tire at lower revs and is dead nuts reliable. Packaging is an issue.
the design and packaging on this will give you a nice fat 850 hp to start with room to grow and slap and electric motor up front and you will indeed see the world through a screaming face at the hit of the throttle.
Don't knock it till you try it. This is going to be one bad animal and I'm excited to see GM step up and show the true potential with some cool designs. Let's hope it lasts and doesn't get too watered down by insurance companies.
We currently have 755, they will top that easily and durability should improve as well.
the design and packaging on this will give you a nice fat 850 hp to start with room to grow and slap and electric motor up front and you will indeed see the world through a screaming face at the hit of the throttle.
Don't knock it till you try it. This is going to be one bad animal and I'm excited to see GM step up and show the true potential with some cool designs. Let's hope it lasts and doesn't get too watered down by insurance companies.
We currently have 755, they will top that easily and durability should improve as well.
01-06-2018, 04:32 PM
#42
Safety Car
They idle properly. IE: they don't move. Modern electric cars have DC brushless motors which are not efficient at start and the inverter decides what RPM will determine max torque. It is not a zero rpm unlike induction motors invented by N.Tesla..
01-06-2018, 07:07 PM
#43
The following 2 users liked this post by sunsalem:
Dominic Sorresso (01-06-2018),
jimmyb (01-07-2018)
01-07-2018, 12:10 AM
#45
Drifting
Tesla and others are using 3-phase AC motors; The advantage over DC brushless is that no permanent magnet is needed, which are expensive. Tesla uses a DC battery voltage around 450 volts, followed by a DC-to-3-phase converter at the motor.
01-07-2018, 09:46 AM
#46
Team Owner
"A permanent magnet synchronous motor (PMSM) motor is used to design the propulsion system of GM’s Chevrolet Bolt battery electric vehicle (BEV). Magnets are buried inside the rotor in two layer ‘V’ arrangement. The Chevrolet Bolt BEV electric machine rotor design optimizes the magnet placement between the adjacent poles asymmetrically to lower torque ripple and radial force. Similar to Chevrolet Spark BEV electric motor, a pair of small slots are stamped in each rotor pole near the rotor outer surface to lower torque ripple and radial force. Rotor design optimizes the placement of these slots at different locations in adjacent poles providing further reduction in torque ripple and radial force. As a result of all these design features, the Chevrolet Bolt BEV electric motor is able to meet the GM stringent noise and vibration requirements without implementing rotor skew, which (rotor skew) lowers motor performance and adds complexity to the rotor manufacturing and hence is undesirable. A bar-wound stator construction, similar to Chevrolet Spark battery electric vehicle, is implemented in Chevrolet Bolt BEV. Bar-wound construction, which GM has adopted for most of its electric and hybrid vehicle motor construction, is known to provide high slot fill, short end-turn length, improved thermal performance, and improved vehicle efficiency especially at low to medium speed ranges. System design, including gearing takes advantage of these machines to ensure the aggregate majority of the driving energy is consumed in the higher efficiency areas of the motor efficiency envelope. However in order to lower the winding ac effect at higher speeds and expanded the high efficiency portions of the envelope, the Chevrolet Bolt BEV motor implements six conductors per slot design while four conductors per slot design was used in Chevrolet Spark motor design. As a result, individual conductor size is smaller in new design resulting in reduced winding AC effects and improved joule loss at high speed operations. Winding layout design in Chevrolet Bolt BEV motor is optimized to minimize voltage between conductors within the slot. This has allowed to eliminate the slot insulation between conductors, further increasing the slot fill and reducing material and manufacturing costs. Stator design of Chevrolet Bolt BEV adopts a special feature, introduced in Gen2 Chevrolet Volt, the stator slot opening size and placement under each pole are optimized to lower torque ripple and radial force. This feature supplements the torque ripple and radial force reduction features introduced in the rotor design as described above."
The world's best selling EV is the leaf, with almost 300,000 sold. It also uses a variation of induction motor known as the Permanent Magnet AC Motor (PMAC).
In addition, the Model 3 uses a permanent magnet (PM) electric motor instead of the AC induction motors used in all Tesla products to date.
While not a 100% EV, the new Acura NSX has three permanent magnet synchronous AC motors.
Last edited by JoesC5; 01-07-2018 at 10:00 AM.
The following users liked this post:
RedLS6 (01-07-2018)
01-07-2018, 09:57 AM
#47
Drifting
The Bolt is an example of "other" brands of EV's.
"A permanent magnet synchronous motor (PMSM) motor is used to design the propulsion system of GM’s Chevrolet Bolt battery electric vehicle (BEV). Magnets are buried inside the rotor in two layer ‘V’ arrangement. The Chevrolet Bolt BEV electric machine rotor design optimizes the magnet placement between the adjacent poles asymmetrically to lower torque ripple and radial force. Similar to Chevrolet Spark BEV electric motor, a pair of small slots are stamped in each rotor pole near the rotor outer surface to lower torque ripple and radial force. Rotor design optimizes the placement of these slots at different locations in adjacent poles providing further reduction in torque ripple and radial force. As a result of all these design features, the Chevrolet Bolt BEV electric motor is able to meet the GM stringent noise and vibration requirements without implementing rotor skew, which (rotor skew) lowers motor performance and adds complexity to the rotor manufacturing and hence is undesirable. A bar-wound stator construction, similar to Chevrolet Spark battery electric vehicle, is implemented in Chevrolet Bolt BEV. Bar-wound construction, which GM has adopted for most of its electric and hybrid vehicle motor construction, is known to provide high slot fill, short end-turn length, improved thermal performance, and improved vehicle efficiency especially at low to medium speed ranges. System design, including gearing takes advantage of these machines to ensure the aggregate majority of the driving energy is consumed in the higher efficiency areas of the motor efficiency envelope. However in order to lower the winding ac effect at higher speeds and expanded the high efficiency portions of the envelope, the Chevrolet Bolt BEV motor implements six conductors per slot design while four conductors per slot design was used in Chevrolet Spark motor design. As a result, individual conductor size is smaller in new design resulting in reduced winding AC effects and improved joule loss at high speed operations. Winding layout design in Chevrolet Bolt BEV motor is optimized to minimize voltage between conductors within the slot. This has allowed to eliminate the slot insulation between conductors, further increasing the slot fill and reducing material and manufacturing costs. Stator design of Chevrolet Bolt BEV adopts a special feature, introduced in Gen2 Chevrolet Volt, the stator slot opening size and placement under each pole are optimized to lower torque ripple and radial force. This feature supplements the torque ripple and radial force reduction features introduced in the rotor design as described above."
While not a 100% EV, the new Acura NSX has three permanent magnet synchronous AC motors.
"A permanent magnet synchronous motor (PMSM) motor is used to design the propulsion system of GM’s Chevrolet Bolt battery electric vehicle (BEV). Magnets are buried inside the rotor in two layer ‘V’ arrangement. The Chevrolet Bolt BEV electric machine rotor design optimizes the magnet placement between the adjacent poles asymmetrically to lower torque ripple and radial force. Similar to Chevrolet Spark BEV electric motor, a pair of small slots are stamped in each rotor pole near the rotor outer surface to lower torque ripple and radial force. Rotor design optimizes the placement of these slots at different locations in adjacent poles providing further reduction in torque ripple and radial force. As a result of all these design features, the Chevrolet Bolt BEV electric motor is able to meet the GM stringent noise and vibration requirements without implementing rotor skew, which (rotor skew) lowers motor performance and adds complexity to the rotor manufacturing and hence is undesirable. A bar-wound stator construction, similar to Chevrolet Spark battery electric vehicle, is implemented in Chevrolet Bolt BEV. Bar-wound construction, which GM has adopted for most of its electric and hybrid vehicle motor construction, is known to provide high slot fill, short end-turn length, improved thermal performance, and improved vehicle efficiency especially at low to medium speed ranges. System design, including gearing takes advantage of these machines to ensure the aggregate majority of the driving energy is consumed in the higher efficiency areas of the motor efficiency envelope. However in order to lower the winding ac effect at higher speeds and expanded the high efficiency portions of the envelope, the Chevrolet Bolt BEV motor implements six conductors per slot design while four conductors per slot design was used in Chevrolet Spark motor design. As a result, individual conductor size is smaller in new design resulting in reduced winding AC effects and improved joule loss at high speed operations. Winding layout design in Chevrolet Bolt BEV motor is optimized to minimize voltage between conductors within the slot. This has allowed to eliminate the slot insulation between conductors, further increasing the slot fill and reducing material and manufacturing costs. Stator design of Chevrolet Bolt BEV adopts a special feature, introduced in Gen2 Chevrolet Volt, the stator slot opening size and placement under each pole are optimized to lower torque ripple and radial force. This feature supplements the torque ripple and radial force reduction features introduced in the rotor design as described above."
While not a 100% EV, the new Acura NSX has three permanent magnet synchronous AC motors.
01-07-2018, 10:06 AM
#48
Team Owner
Kind of blows your argument that "Tesla and others" use AC 3 phase motors without permanent magnets, out of the water.
Last edited by JoesC5; 01-07-2018 at 10:12 AM.
The following users liked this post:
3 Z06ZR1 (01-08-2018)
01-07-2018, 10:17 AM
#49
Drifting
The latest Tesla design car, the Model 3 "el cheapo model" uses a permanent magnet motor.
Kind of blows your argument that "Tesla and others" use AC 3 phase motors without permanent magnets, out of the water.
But you are correct that modern electric cars don't use brushless DC motors as stated earlier by Shaka.
Kind of blows your argument that "Tesla and others" use AC 3 phase motors without permanent magnets, out of the water.
But you are correct that modern electric cars don't use brushless DC motors as stated earlier by Shaka.
Permanent magnets can be used in AC motors for improved performance but are not necessary. When they are used, they are used in different places for different purposes and do not need to have as much mass as an equivalent DC. It all comes down to cost and efficiency, with the tradeoff being a more complex drive for AC versus DC.
In a permanent magnet AC, the magnets can be smaller and can be located in the stator which doesn't rotate (inertia), although some may be in the rotor. They are usually used to smooth out the torque ripple.
Last edited by RedLS6; 01-07-2018 at 10:31 AM.
01-08-2018, 04:26 PM
#50
Melting Slicks
The 812 engine torque was there to show what you can do with 6.5L and Direct Injection. That's all you need to get 530lb-ft NA. Since GM already makes a 6.2L DI engine that is quite cheap it won't be hard to get torque out.
The same S2000 head design in 12 cylinders would equate to 6 liters, hardly small. The same design with the stroker bits, as you mentioned would rev to over 8000 rpm for the same piston speed. Still high revving in anyone's book. No one says you are restricted to 8 huge bore cylinders, why not 12 smaller ones?
The S2000 engine is discontinued, but any high output K series Honda engine can hit those piston speeds reliably at ~$5,500 crate engine cost. Hardly exotic pricing. Unlike in forced induction, a large V10 or V12 doesn't need fancy forged pistons so there are savings to be had. With cast pistons you get better wear resistance especially in cold climates compared to forged pistons, less piston slap and so on. K series don't have forged rods either, just cracked caps. Similarly, Honda has found a way to use high quality steel in the head and get better wear and still rev to F1 piston speeds.
The same S2000 head design in 12 cylinders would equate to 6 liters, hardly small. The same design with the stroker bits, as you mentioned would rev to over 8000 rpm for the same piston speed. Still high revving in anyone's book. No one says you are restricted to 8 huge bore cylinders, why not 12 smaller ones?
The S2000 engine is discontinued, but any high output K series Honda engine can hit those piston speeds reliably at ~$5,500 crate engine cost. Hardly exotic pricing. Unlike in forced induction, a large V10 or V12 doesn't need fancy forged pistons so there are savings to be had. With cast pistons you get better wear resistance especially in cold climates compared to forged pistons, less piston slap and so on. K series don't have forged rods either, just cracked caps. Similarly, Honda has found a way to use high quality steel in the head and get better wear and still rev to F1 piston speeds.
Twelve cylinder mills cost a fortune to make. If you are talking a 4 V head, you need 48 valves, 4 large, expensive camshafts, a huge, long crank, etc. Yes, individual pulses can be reduced by lots of tiny cylinders and a short stroke, but there are not now and never will be "cheap" 12 cylinder engines. Too many parts, too much overall weight, large external dimensions.
This discussion started about how power is made: HP = Torque x RPM/5252. You can boost HP by increasing torque, RPM, or both. Very high rpm for street motors of any size is just going to be expensive. By comparison, when F1 hit 22,000 rpm with pneumatic valves, one of the first things done to cut costs was to cut the max rpm using electronic cutoffs. High revs just put more stress on a car motor. Unless you have some good reason to do so, like homologation preventing use of big displacement engines, it is almost always easier and much cheaper to make lots of power by increasing torque instead of RPM.
Last edited by quick04Z06; 01-08-2018 at 04:36 PM.
01-10-2018, 03:05 PM
#51
Safety Car
The F22 Honda engine has tiny pistons, tiny rods, tiny crankshaft, and hence tiny reciprocating mass.
Twelve cylinder mills cost a fortune to make. If you are talking a 4 V head, you need 48 valves, 4 large, expensive camshafts, a huge, long crank, etc. Yes, individual pulses can be reduced by lots of tiny cylinders and a short stroke, but there are not now and never will be "cheap" 12 cylinder engines. Too many parts, too much overall weight, large external dimensions.
This discussion started about how power is made: HP = Torque x RPM/5252. You can boost HP by increasing torque, RPM, or both. Very high rpm for street motors of any size is just going to be expensive. By comparison, when F1 hit 22,000 rpm with pneumatic valves, one of the first things done to cut costs was to cut the max rpm using electronic cutoffs. High revs just put more stress on a car motor. Unless you have some good reason to do so, like homologation preventing use of big displacement engines, it is almost always easier and much cheaper to make lots of power by increasing torque instead of RPM.
Twelve cylinder mills cost a fortune to make. If you are talking a 4 V head, you need 48 valves, 4 large, expensive camshafts, a huge, long crank, etc. Yes, individual pulses can be reduced by lots of tiny cylinders and a short stroke, but there are not now and never will be "cheap" 12 cylinder engines. Too many parts, too much overall weight, large external dimensions.
This discussion started about how power is made: HP = Torque x RPM/5252. You can boost HP by increasing torque, RPM, or both. Very high rpm for street motors of any size is just going to be expensive. By comparison, when F1 hit 22,000 rpm with pneumatic valves, one of the first things done to cut costs was to cut the max rpm using electronic cutoffs. High revs just put more stress on a car motor. Unless you have some good reason to do so, like homologation preventing use of big displacement engines, it is almost always easier and much cheaper to make lots of power by increasing torque instead of RPM.
Yes it will be large (mostly just long) but we have an ME chassis.
I don't think it would be heavy ~550lbs. LT4 is 529lbs.
01-12-2018, 08:20 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
GM can Siamese the ecotec into a v8 and the head, cams, are all there, but anytime you engineer a new engine platform it's big bucks to do the castings until we can print them 
01-12-2018, 08:34 PM
#53
Safety Car
"Same as the LCV but features Intake Valve Lift Control (IVLC) system provides two-stage variable valve lift in addition to continuous variable timing. Continuously commanded by engine control unit, the valve rocker arm switches between high-lift and low-lift profiles on the camshaft, actuated by an oil control valve through a two-feed stationary hydraulic lash adjuster, allowing for either 4.0 or 10.5 mm lift.[20] It also features a start-stop system. Maximum engine speed is listed at 7000 RPM."
So using these parts in a V12 arrangement should make for a nice 600hp/550tq 7.5L naturally aspirated engine with variable lift and phasing and similar piston speeds and power/torque to what Honda is getting in the K24.
Honestly, why doesn't GM build this? Other than block, crank, and cams the majority of the parts are off the shelf and economies of scale already exist. 600hp is just the beginning, this is the state of tune used in the Impala/Malibu.
01-13-2018, 09:04 AM
#54
Le Mans Master
The Impala engine actually sounds quite nice, according to wiki:
"Same as the LCV but features Intake Valve Lift Control (IVLC) system provides two-stage variable valve lift in addition to continuous variable timing. Continuously commanded by engine control unit, the valve rocker arm switches between high-lift and low-lift profiles on the camshaft, actuated by an oil control valve through a two-feed stationary hydraulic lash adjuster, allowing for either 4.0 or 10.5 mm lift.[20] It also features a start-stop system. Maximum engine speed is listed at 7000 RPM."
So using these parts in a V12 arrangement should make for a nice 600hp/550tq 7.5L naturally aspirated engine with variable lift and phasing and similar piston speeds and power/torque to what Honda is getting in the K24.
Honestly, why doesn't GM build this? Other than block, crank, and cams the majority of the parts are off the shelf and economies of scale already exist. 600hp is just the beginning, this is the state of tune used in the Impala/Malibu.
"Same as the LCV but features Intake Valve Lift Control (IVLC) system provides two-stage variable valve lift in addition to continuous variable timing. Continuously commanded by engine control unit, the valve rocker arm switches between high-lift and low-lift profiles on the camshaft, actuated by an oil control valve through a two-feed stationary hydraulic lash adjuster, allowing for either 4.0 or 10.5 mm lift.[20] It also features a start-stop system. Maximum engine speed is listed at 7000 RPM."
So using these parts in a V12 arrangement should make for a nice 600hp/550tq 7.5L naturally aspirated engine with variable lift and phasing and similar piston speeds and power/torque to what Honda is getting in the K24.
Honestly, why doesn't GM build this? Other than block, crank, and cams the majority of the parts are off the shelf and economies of scale already exist. 600hp is just the beginning, this is the state of tune used in the Impala/Malibu.
cost is the big reason. it's easier to use boost than displacement.
a v12 would be impressive, and the old caddy did it in the cien and caddy prototypes
01-13-2018, 12:06 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
01-13-2018, 12:21 PM
#57
Team Owner
I can't speak for Shaka and his car, but I can add an E-Force or a Heartbeat to my C6 Z06 and get 600 HP and still get 30 MPG, as the forced induction is an on-demand power adder and cruising down the Interstate at 70 MPH will not require the forced induction to be in boost, so my 7 Liter LS7 will still be running as a NA engine with it's efficient 11.0:1 compression ratio, and still get the same fuel economy as before adding the additional 150 horsepower(when in boost).
Last edited by JoesC5; 01-13-2018 at 12:24 PM.
01-13-2018, 12:32 PM
#58
The Consigliere
Member Since: May 2006
Location: 2023 Z06 & 2010 ZR1
Posts: 22,247
Received 5,443 Likes
on
2,270 Posts
My 600 hp NA Katech C6 Z06 would pull just under 30 mpg on the highway.
But - that set-up wouldn't pass tailpipe emission limits OEM manufacturers have to meet today.
But - that set-up wouldn't pass tailpipe emission limits OEM manufacturers have to meet today.
The following users liked this post:
Shaka (01-13-2018)
01-15-2018, 07:57 PM
#60
Safety Car
I'd love to see EPA validate some of the claims in this thread! yes, big cams, high rolling resistance tires, no cats, superchargers that don't take any power to spin, and big aero. All good for 30 mpg and good emissions.
If we're going there I would like to throw my numbers in there too. I can tow my racecar on a trailer with a 5000lb V8 all motor SUV and use no gas at all. (the secret is to watch the MPG meter downhill in gear!)
If we're going there I would like to throw my numbers in there too. I can tow my racecar on a trailer with a 5000lb V8 all motor SUV and use no gas at all. (the secret is to watch the MPG meter downhill in gear!)