Rapid Fred

I like your thinking. I believe that with sports cars racing success definitely helps sales volume. If GM is paralleling the C7 and C8 for a few years, having a well-resourced racing program for each version could make sense, particularly if GM is not doing all the funding. To those who feel racing gives the marque credibility, the C7 would not seem "inferior" to the C8, but more like a "little brother." Doesn't Porsche do it in a similar way to how you envision this? As someone who will be driving a "traditional" Vette for at least the next 7-8 years, and a big fan of the WeatherTech series and Corvette Racing, I hope your prognostication is spot on.

Shaka

Right. They even got rid the GT1 class when the C5R kept on winning. They have been socking to Corvette since by making up new rules but they allow Ford and Ferrari to cheat.

Rapid Fred

Interesting and logical. Only problem is, with the C8 so radically different from the C7, I can see them being willing to break the mold so as to ASAP feature the C8 as the "pinnacle" of GM performance sports cars. Let's face it, the C6 was really the C5A, and even the C7 was an extension, rather than re-thinking of the line -- so the connection of the body lines of the race car to what was in the showroom probably was not as critical. Now, if the "Zora" is unveiled in Jan 2019 but not sold until late in the year (when the IMSA series is over) then your timeline would seem to be spot-on...

Mjolitor 68

Eric told me WHELEN spent around $5M tuning the DP so it could win.

Since I don’t want to hire engineers and pay for tuning it maybe I buy one a few years old

Jeff V.

Here's the biggest problem with that.

You can't test a race car when it's dressed up like this:



Going back to the coffee table book, Jim Mero is quoted as saying he had to fight tooth and nail to get permission to strip an early C7 IVER down to just the swirly vinyl camo and test it at Michelin's private test track. GM didn't even want one of their biggest partners seeing the car early.

The simple truth is, they can't test an ME version of the race car with heavy cladding on it. If they strip it down to just swirly vinyl, too many people will see it before it's meant to be seen.

MitchAlsup

Formula one figured this out in 1959-60. No competitive F1 car has had the engine anywhere else since.

Taking all that weight off the nose also improves the steering, and takes the engine torque out of the chassis. Both help the driver feel what the car is trying to tell him/her.

Putting that weight in front of the rear wheels improves traction so that WHEN the tires start to lose traction, the driver gets plenty of feedback and in general, the car transitions between slip and slide much more gracefully.

Finally, moving the driver forward, places the center of rotation at the hip of the driver, which lets the balance functions in his ear feel what the car is doing easier.

All of these are favorable to the driving experience (street and race).

jimmyb

A couple of points:
1. It's a RACE, not a SPRINT. I have no doubt the Ford GT's are faster, and Corvette Racing won back to back titles. Great team, great car, great drivers. Put 'em all together....CHAMPIONSHIPS
2. The C7.R's do not APPROACH the horsepower of the C7 Z06, much less the C7 ZR1, so traction is less an issue than with the street cars.
3. I believe the C8 will become the C8.R, I think for the 2020 season.

And finally: No one is arguing the basic physics advantage of a rear mid-engine race car. But to suggest that the front engine car is out of it's league is silly also. Corvette Racing didn't win the last 2 Championships because they were lucky. At some point, the cars had to have SOME speed to them.

OnPoint

Jeff V.

I think what's happening is some people are coming in, reading the last 3-5 posts, and then thinking they're going to dazzle everyone by evangelizing about the glory of mid engine architectures.

That's cool, I guess. But it's not the conversation the rest of us are having.

Shaka

Very nice post. Thanks. Yes physics, the perpetual reminder of God who's laws can't be defied. Suppose you have the following two wheel drive cars with the same compound tires.
A C5, a Boxter, a 911, an Elise, a Golf GTI and a 458. Put them on a tight autocross track where braking and acceleration are not paramount. This is how they will finish. 1st, Corvette, 2nd, GTI, 3rd Boxter, 4th Ferrari, 5th Lotus and last 911. Why is this? All to do with tire loading. The Lotus is 1000 lbs lighter than the Boxter, the Corvette's outside loading of the tires will be almost equal.
Which tires will be the hottest? The Golf's front tires, the 911s rear tires. The coldest tires, Golf rear tires, Elise all four, 911 front tires, then the C5 all 4.
Now add water or sand. Grip is reduced drastically. Who wins? Tire temps in the dry tell you how the cars will do in the wet. Corvette wins again.
On the usual road course tracks, the 911 will have high tire wear both back and front which require more frequent pit stops. Why is the front tire wear great on the 911? Much slip due to insufficient loading. The rear is kept at grip saturation and the at limit of their friction circle.. 911s have actually reached the end of road as far as competitive racing is concerned because of where the engine is located.
What would your rather drive in the wet at the limit? The Corvette or the 458? At the limit, the Ferrari will be unmanageable and the Vette will be sweet. Check out the Ferrari chalenge series when it rains.
Now when it comes to braking and accelerating into and out of turns, the nature of the Corvettes tire loading is not optimized for maximum 4 tire grip. As you rightly observed, the C7R, still with the same engine as the C5R, will shine because of the efficient use of the tires. It's like Nuvolari in his Alfa against the Auto Unions and Mercedes. The ME Vette is entering a challenging arena. Can the Corvette boys meet it?.
--

Lavender

It only swept the championships for 2 years straight... Does this sound like "struggling" to you?

2cnd Chance

MitchAlsup

Which is why the ME Corvette will not be a RE Corvette.

It appears you have never driven a properly setup ME car in the wet.

And this is exactly where the ME performance gains big time.

Bill Dearborn

I think you just made the other poster's point. The C7 R was developed in parallel with the C7 and was on track a few months after C7 Customer deliveries started. GM even made a special note of mentioning how well connected the race program and the design/development teams were during the development of the C7.

There is nothing about the C8 that will stop them from following the same process. The other thing you seem to think moving the engine will cause major development issues for the race team but I sort of doubt that. GM has plenty of mid engine race car development under the belt over the last few years. In fact it goes all the way back to the early 2000s with the first Caddie Prototype car. Sure contracted race companies like P&M developed the car but you really think GM engineers weren't heavily involved as well?

The things they have to worry about on the mid engine car all the same things they had to worry about with the front mid engine cars they are driving now. The major difference is the engine moves 4 or 5 feet to the rear meaning they will have to change spring rates, stabilizer bar rates and shock dampening.

Bill

vetteman41960

Have you ever driven a 458 Italia? I own one and also a Corvette Z06 Callaway SC 757.

Anywhere near the limits in wet or dry there is no comparison at all.

The Callaway wants to kill me and the Ferrari is much more compliant and comfortable to drive at or near the limit.

If you ever driven a 458 I promise you would relies why the Callaway with 757 hp and 777 ft pound of torque maybe faster the 458 is quicker manly due to the DCt transmission and a much easier car to drive.

There no comparison for an average driver like myself the Ferrari is a much more pleasant car to drive.

Anyone who has driven an SC 757 will tell you the car wants to kill you.

Read a review on the Callaway same story over and over to much HP for the front mid engine rear drive platform to handle.

Then read reviews on a 458 nothing but glowing received from the linear power deliver to the lighting fast shift to the handling that feels like a go cart.

The spec you see for the Corvette are done by professional drivers who CA drive the car at the limit.

I promise an average driver like myself cannot come close to the 0 60 performance or the skid pad numbers the Corvette can produce with a pro behind the wheel.

Now anyone can get in the 458 and replicate the performance numbers.

That the difference. I don't think you driven a 458 or if you have it was not much because this car is incredibly.

All these statement are from a life long Corvette Fan . I go to at least the 3 endurance races held in southeast US every year and follow every race start to finish.

I love Corvette racing but they win not because the car is the fastest that is proof by looking how few plot position or fastest lap time in any race.

It's because the drivers and team are the best GT team in the world. Plus the cars don't break.

That's why 2 year back to back championships in GTLM not because the cars where even close to having the fastest race pace.

Jeff V.

That's not what they said. One or two other people said the race car will begin racing around the same time the ME road car is debuted to the public. I contend that's not possible since they can't test it on track while also maintaining the secrecy of it's appearance. The road car and the race car will not debut at the same time like some wishful thinkers are hoping for.

Again, I'm talking about the introduction. The point when the secrecy is over. That's got absolutely nothing to do with customer deliveries.

The previous 3 Corvette race cars have lagged the road car by a year or more. There is no reason to believe the ME will suddenly buck this trend.

If they debut the road car in Jan 2019, then the soonest we can see the race car competing is Jan 2020. Even if they debut the road car late this year, that's still unlikely to be enough time to get the race car fully tested in time to race by Jan 2019.

sunsalem

That it is (speaking from experience).

Other than Garcia, who is something of a God behind the wheel of the C7R, I wouldn't consider the Corvette drivers to be among the "top" GT drivers.
HOWEVER, the pit crews, team strategy, strong factory backing, cars that can take a pounding and keep on going, plus mechanicals that are damn near bullet-proof all work together to bring the gold home to Detroit.
Over the last 20 years, Corvette Racing has been THE finest GT team in the world.
Their records speak for themselves...all Corvette fans should take pride in their achievement.

Your rationale is based on a Jan. 2019 reveal...I'm not sure that can be counted on.

Shaka

I was responding to JimmyBs post so please entertain the context of my post at least. Yes, I have driven my buddies 458 on numerous occasions. Nothing comes close to that refinement but physics is physics. The way I test a chassis is on a multi lane straight highway when there is no traffic. I swerve left and right at ever increasing speeds. I brake, I accelerate with much variation of input during those turns at speeds starting at 60 and ending at 130 or 40. I get a pretty good idea of how the chassis behaves. If the road is wet, the car's shortcoming are exaggerated. I haven't driven it in the wet yet but my 08 Z06 Vette is very predictable. My front engine roadster beats the 458 in everything up to 130 mph. There are always compromises in chassis design. The C7 Z06, the C7 ZR1 and the F12 simply can't handle the power to the back wheels. The 458 can be driven without grannies, but the 488 and the La Ferrari can't.
The C7GS is nothing to scoff at. It beat the 458 at Laguna Seca. The Z06 has a faster time than the 488 at the Ring.
Nothing can touch a sprint car on dirt ovals. Nothing can touch a rear engine rail car in the desert.
The Mercedes GTR is much more refined than the Vette and so is the F12. Both the GS and the Z06 outbrake the 458 and the 488. All depends on how physics is employed.

NewYuriCity

I'm sorry, but please never ever do that again, or at least don't admit to it on a public forum. There are at least half a dozen great tracks in the Florida/South East area that I can think of off the top of my head, and the track is the only place you can get a real feel for the limits of a car. Swerving around at 130mph on a public highway is not testing a vehicle's chassis, it's just driving irresponsibly.

Shaka

I don't do that often and I see to it that conditions are perfect. I would have to go to race tracks 70 miles north and 70 miles south from where I live and on track days to test a set up. Both lousy tracks for my purpose.
Are you telling me that you don't have favorite on and off ramps close by? Ofcourse I would never post a video and no animals are ever hurt when I do it.