What would an average MSRP of $85K+ do to Corvette sales numbers?
02-22-2018, 10:46 AM
#41
Race Director
It would pretty much end them. The vast majority of Vettes sold are base models. GM is in real danger of significantly hurting themselves if they do what a small group want them to. Luckily, the mid engine car is either a Caddy, or a Fiero, and the C8 will be an evolution of the C7.
02-22-2018, 10:53 AM
#42
Race Director
Here's what the Germans offer for 65 to 80 grand.
I guess you guys are right...
Based off your logic...
https://www.caranddriver.com/compari...mparison-tests
I guess you guys are right...
Based off your logic...
https://www.caranddriver.com/compari...mparison-tests
02-22-2018, 12:32 PM
#43
Safety Car
What if the 2020 FE’s have an exciting new front fascia and a bump to 500 HP? That would add some juice (sales) to keeping the FE going for a few more years.
And what if the ME were to start in the upper $70K range, or even $85K as the OP speculated, though with its having lots of expensive options such as a truly exciting “5” level interior , a ”front axle list system, and something else new, with the majority are out the door at around $100,000.
What a well thought out plan that would be GM, especially since the new overtime BGA capacity is 33,000 units/annually.
Oversupply would then probably not be an issue, in fact could be just like 2014 when 1,000+ sold units could not be physically made (even at the then 40,500 unit/year capacity) and thus had to be prioritized as the earliest 2015’s. IMO, due to the reduction to 33,000 units max yearly, could result in demand moving well into the following year. As Kai noted on his August 29, 2017 video’d presentation, we believe we “right sized production for an entire generation” — for he also noted that without overtime, prodcution unit annual capacity is down to 24,000 per year.
Radical concept, what if GM got the demand and supply curve right to the point that for the first at least four years of a generation. And if that balance were to occur, the Plant could eliminate expensive overtime way earlier — rather than their keeping it going way too long (compared to demand) for the C7 generation.
The unhappy ones would be those FE & ME customers who did not get hooked up with the right dealers, and/or did not order soon enough.
And what if the ME were to start in the upper $70K range, or even $85K as the OP speculated, though with its having lots of expensive options such as a truly exciting “5” level interior , a ”front axle list system, and something else new, with the majority are out the door at around $100,000.
What a well thought out plan that would be GM, especially since the new overtime BGA capacity is 33,000 units/annually.
Oversupply would then probably not be an issue, in fact could be just like 2014 when 1,000+ sold units could not be physically made (even at the then 40,500 unit/year capacity) and thus had to be prioritized as the earliest 2015’s. IMO, due to the reduction to 33,000 units max yearly, could result in demand moving well into the following year. As Kai noted on his August 29, 2017 video’d presentation, we believe we “right sized production for an entire generation” — for he also noted that without overtime, prodcution unit annual capacity is down to 24,000 per year.
Radical concept, what if GM got the demand and supply curve right to the point that for the first at least four years of a generation. And if that balance were to occur, the Plant could eliminate expensive overtime way earlier — rather than their keeping it going way too long (compared to demand) for the C7 generation.
The unhappy ones would be those FE & ME customers who did not get hooked up with the right dealers, and/or did not order soon enough.
Last edited by elegant; 02-22-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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JerriVette (03-03-2018)
02-22-2018, 12:40 PM
#44
Team Owner
What if the 2020 FE’s have an exciting new front fascia and a bump to 500 HP? That would add some juice (sales) to keeping the FE going for a few more years.
And what if the ME were to start in the upper $70K range, or even $85K as the OP speculated, though with its having lots of expensive options such as a truly exciting “5” level interior , a ”front axle list system, and something else new, with the majority are out the door at around $100,000.
What a well thought out plan that would be GM, especially since the new overtime BGA capacity is 33,000 units/annually.
Oversupply would then probably not be an issue, in fact could be just like 2014 when 1,000+ sold units could not be physically made (even at the then 40,500 unit/year capacity) and thus had to be prioritized as the earliest 2015’s. IMO, due to the reduction to 33,000 units max yearly, could result in demand moving well into the following year. As Kai noted on his August 29, 2017 video’d presentation, we believe we “right sized production for an entire generation” — for he also noted that without overtime, prodcution unit annual capacity is down to 24,000 per year.
Radical concept, what if GM got the demand and supply curve right to the point that for the first at least four years of a generation. And if that balance were to occur, the Plant could eliminate expensive overtime way earlier — rather than their keeping it going way too long (compared to demand) for the C7 generation.
The unhappy ones would be those FE & ME customers who did not get hooked up with the right dealers, and/or did not order soon enough.
And what if the ME were to start in the upper $70K range, or even $85K as the OP speculated, though with its having lots of expensive options such as a truly exciting “5” level interior , a ”front axle list system, and something else new, with the majority are out the door at around $100,000.
What a well thought out plan that would be GM, especially since the new overtime BGA capacity is 33,000 units/annually.
Oversupply would then probably not be an issue, in fact could be just like 2014 when 1,000+ sold units could not be physically made (even at the then 40,500 unit/year capacity) and thus had to be prioritized as the earliest 2015’s. IMO, due to the reduction to 33,000 units max yearly, could result in demand moving well into the following year. As Kai noted on his August 29, 2017 video’d presentation, we believe we “right sized production for an entire generation” — for he also noted that without overtime, prodcution unit annual capacity is down to 24,000 per year.
Radical concept, what if GM got the demand and supply curve right to the point that for the first at least four years of a generation. And if that balance were to occur, the Plant could eliminate expensive overtime way earlier — rather than their keeping it going way too long (compared to demand) for the C7 generation.
The unhappy ones would be those FE & ME customers who did not get hooked up with the right dealers, and/or did not order soon enough.
This is the title of this thread...." What would an average MSRP of $85K+ do to Corvette sales numbers?". He did not say..."What would a starting MSRP of $85K + do to Corvette sales numbers?"
Last edited by JoesC5; 02-22-2018 at 12:46 PM.
02-22-2018, 09:52 PM
#45
So I read somewhere that the C8 may well be a mid-engine Corvette (the Zora may wind up being the C8 according to this speculation) and that the base price would ramp from the current $56K to $80K+. Hey, GM can do whatever they want, but if the average MSRP on a Corvette really goes that high (that's the base car they're talking about @ $80K+, there will be pricier versions), there is no chance GM is going to sell 30-40,000 of them annually in my view. Out of reach for that many sports car buyers. First off, there aren't that many sports cars buyers to begin with. The Corvette has always been an aspirational car (I aspired to own one, finally got there @ age 58), and guys like me get a few bucks together when they're older and many of them S T R E T C H to buy the car. I did. I wouldn't have even tried if the car had been $20K higher.
I think an awful lot of Corvette buyers are like me. I think if they really go that high on pricing they'll be lucky to sell 20K units annually. Maybe GM would prefer a higher demographic buyer and higher profit per car, but I think they would be better served to dish up a C8 version that has a window sticker closer to today's car for a number of reasons. Then they can have a couple of pricier models with a little more power, etc.
Cars are discretionary purchases, and I overcame my logic to buy this car. Because make no mistake, there are few dumber ways of flushing money down the toilet than blowing $60K than buying any brand new car. So it better make you happy. And my car does. But there are limits to my abilities to suspend sound monetary policy. So they'll lose some sales to guys who think like I do and others to guys who just can't come up with the dough, because every $10K you go north on price over a certain point reduces your buyer pool exponentially.
It is fascinating to watch this unfold. But my hope would be for a base model that carries a base price no higher than say $60K.
I think an awful lot of Corvette buyers are like me. I think if they really go that high on pricing they'll be lucky to sell 20K units annually. Maybe GM would prefer a higher demographic buyer and higher profit per car, but I think they would be better served to dish up a C8 version that has a window sticker closer to today's car for a number of reasons. Then they can have a couple of pricier models with a little more power, etc.
Cars are discretionary purchases, and I overcame my logic to buy this car. Because make no mistake, there are few dumber ways of flushing money down the toilet than blowing $60K than buying any brand new car. So it better make you happy. And my car does. But there are limits to my abilities to suspend sound monetary policy. So they'll lose some sales to guys who think like I do and others to guys who just can't come up with the dough, because every $10K you go north on price over a certain point reduces your buyer pool exponentially.
It is fascinating to watch this unfold. But my hope would be for a base model that carries a base price no higher than say $60K.
02-22-2018, 11:19 PM
#46
85k base would be the end of the Corvette. Corvette already has a problem with demographics. For continued success they need to pull in younger buyers. If you don’t believe me, read about the problems Harley-Davidson is having.
85k plus base is way too expensive for a Corvette. Most young buyers don’t consider a corvette to be a true premium car like a Porsche and 85k is basically porsche money. I think the corvette needs to represent a performance value or many buyers will move to the competition.
I’m a corvette fan, but I’m not a buyer if the base price increases much.
85k plus base is way too expensive for a Corvette. Most young buyers don’t consider a corvette to be a true premium car like a Porsche and 85k is basically porsche money. I think the corvette needs to represent a performance value or many buyers will move to the competition.
I’m a corvette fan, but I’m not a buyer if the base price increases much.
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JerriVette (02-26-2018)
02-23-2018, 12:02 PM
#47
Race Director
I will not purchase a C8 with base price approaching ninety thousand. Heck with just an automatic transmission offered on the C8 might as well purchase a Buick.
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JerriVette (02-26-2018)
02-23-2018, 01:11 PM
#48
1) Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, Chargers, Hellcats, Stingers, and similar are not sports cars. They are muscle cars or sport sedans depending on your pleasure. These cars are generally priced between $30-75k.
2) Corvette is a sports car. It falls into the category of cars such as Viper, Gallardo, 458, 488, M3, M4, AMG whatever, S5, S8, R8, and LFA. Of these cars Corvette has the cheapest base price, followed by the M3, which has a lot less horsepower. These cars range from about $60k to 300k.
3) Corvette has never been and was never intended to be a car for the every man. There's always been something a little heavier and a little cheaper with a V8 to give you some thrills.
4) Corvette has never been and was never intended to be a profit making center. It is a technology test bed and a loss leader.
The result, Corvette will and should be priced above the best Camaro or what's the point. If you are going to compete with the big boys you need to be built like the big boys and that comes with big boy prices. A $100k Corvette will do just fine and if we are lucky will come with better interior materials to boot. So accept it, rejoice, and enjoy the new mid-engine Corvette.
2) Corvette is a sports car. It falls into the category of cars such as Viper, Gallardo, 458, 488, M3, M4, AMG whatever, S5, S8, R8, and LFA. Of these cars Corvette has the cheapest base price, followed by the M3, which has a lot less horsepower. These cars range from about $60k to 300k.
3) Corvette has never been and was never intended to be a car for the every man. There's always been something a little heavier and a little cheaper with a V8 to give you some thrills.
4) Corvette has never been and was never intended to be a profit making center. It is a technology test bed and a loss leader.
The result, Corvette will and should be priced above the best Camaro or what's the point. If you are going to compete with the big boys you need to be built like the big boys and that comes with big boy prices. A $100k Corvette will do just fine and if we are lucky will come with better interior materials to boot. So accept it, rejoice, and enjoy the new mid-engine Corvette.
02-23-2018, 01:13 PM
#49
Put your manual C7 on a track against an automatic C7 with the same setup and it will beat you around every time. Let go of the past, embrace the future.
02-23-2018, 01:51 PM
#50
Safety Car
Erroneous. As per official GM statistics provided annually to the National Corvette Museum. Here are final 2017 production stats.
And when one additionally factors in not just the model, but that 2/3’s choose to purchase either the 2 level or 3 level interiors, paying $4K convertibles and so many other expensive options, it is easily seen that while some Corvettes are purchased at the lower end of the price scale, many are near-fully-loaded GS and Z06’s.
And when one additionally factors in not just the model, but that 2/3’s choose to purchase either the 2 level or 3 level interiors, paying $4K convertibles and so many other expensive options, it is easily seen that while some Corvettes are purchased at the lower end of the price scale, many are near-fully-loaded GS and Z06’s.
Last edited by elegant; 02-23-2018 at 01:54 PM.
02-26-2018, 01:31 AM
#51
Burning Brakes
Erroneous. As per official GM statistics provided annually to the National Corvette Museum. Here are final 2017 production stats.
And when one additionally factors in not just the model, but that 2/3’s choose to purchase either the 2 level or 3 level interiors, paying $4K convertibles and so many other expensive options, it is easily seen that while some Corvettes are purchased at the lower end of the price scale, many are near-fully-loaded GS and Z06’s.
And when one additionally factors in not just the model, but that 2/3’s choose to purchase either the 2 level or 3 level interiors, paying $4K convertibles and so many other expensive options, it is easily seen that while some Corvettes are purchased at the lower end of the price scale, many are near-fully-loaded GS and Z06’s.
The issue GM also has to worry about is the C7 is very good and so used C7 sales will cannibalize C8 sales for years for younger buyers, if the price of entry for the C8 is too high. I think something like $70-75k is an upper bound for base price elasticity.
02-26-2018, 01:17 PM
#52
Team Owner
Here's what the Germans offer for 65 to 80 grand.
I guess you guys are right...
Based off your logic...
https://www.caranddriver.com/compari...mparison-tests
I guess you guys are right...
Based off your logic...
https://www.caranddriver.com/compari...mparison-tests
If you want a 350-400 hp ME Corvette, knock yourself out Jerri.
You keep thinking there is this HUGE market for an ME car. The numbers out there don't show that.
Last edited by JustinStrife; 02-26-2018 at 01:17 PM.
02-26-2018, 09:26 PM
#53
Race Director
The 500 hp mid engine corvette with either a manual or dct will literally crush the Porsche turbo four cylinder in the marketplace...
If these two cars cost the same who in their right mind would chose the Porsche ?
Not dissing the fine boxster but given what GM can bring to the table at the same price and be a mid rear engine 500 hp v8 ...
All porsches , not to mention Ferrari, mclaren will be even more on red alert than they are for the c7 grand sport and z06 not to mention the zR1 at least from a track perspective....
I'm sure those other brands will not lose sales but with a 500 hp LT1 rear mid engine corvette corvette with a manual and a dct priced a few grand higher than today's model....plus options of course...the entire market segment will expand and reverse the previous trend slightly from continued lost sales to sporting cuv s like the macan etc...
Last edited by JerriVette; 02-26-2018 at 09:27 PM.
02-26-2018, 10:44 PM
#54
2nd Gear
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Maybe not the vast majority, but probably over half. The Grand Sports don't retail for more than $10K than the base model and when you factor those in you are probably talking 75% of sales. That means an Average MSRP less than $70k and a an average sale price in the low $60K range. I agree with the original premise - a base model for $85k will not sell more than 10-12K units a year. Maybe more in year one, but a very steep falloff after that.
The issue GM also has to worry about is the C7 is very good and so used C7 sales will cannibalize C8 sales for years for younger buyers, if the price of entry for the C8 is too high. I think something like $70-75k is an upper bound for base price elasticity.
The issue GM also has to worry about is the C7 is very good and so used C7 sales will cannibalize C8 sales for years for younger buyers, if the price of entry for the C8 is too high. I think something like $70-75k is an upper bound for base price elasticity.
Of course 5 years in and the C7s are deeply discounted, about $10k across the board. Don't expect years 1 & 2 of C8 to be discounted at all. In fact there could be a markup (if GM deliberately prices low to induce demand).
GM needs to come in fairly low with the base C8 not only for share, but also to provide a measurable price break to differentiate their trim lines and to align with customer tastes without going too high on the top end.
Assuming only what I've read here about what the C8 might be, and also assuming C8 does not offer manual, I'm putting the over/under 1LT MSRP around $70k for base, $80k for GS (if they offer one), and $92k for Z06. I'm compressing the price breaks a bit because if the ME base is solid, there may be a limited amount of upgrades that can be done to justify a higher price, for example if a twin turbo is offered with the base model.
Assuming a 40/40/20 share of sales for the respective trim lines, that yields an average 1LT MSRP of $78.4k. Add about $5k for a 2LT and that brings the average MSRP to about $83.4k.
I also expect convertible to be about $6k more than coupe, equally equipped. Maybe more for the top trim line due to more complex engineering/weight issues.
03-01-2018, 01:20 PM
#55
Banned Scam/Spammer
GM was able to write off allot of the ME design and investments from the BK. IT "shouldn't be that much of a charge, but then again capitalism is a hella of a thing. They should come out and tell everything how thankful they are for the support and drop the C8 to 40K =-)
03-01-2018, 01:50 PM
#56
Race Director
What GM will do is offer the base car in the low sixties from 57 gRand msrp in 2019..
GM if it's smart will just mark up the options to bleed the consumer early on...ship early cars loaded to really ring the bell.
Then as the years take its toll on demand..just offer popular option packages at huge discounts..to entice consumers ..
That would be my suggestion but GM for some reason didn't call me for advice.
GM if it's smart will just mark up the options to bleed the consumer early on...ship early cars loaded to really ring the bell.
Then as the years take its toll on demand..just offer popular option packages at huge discounts..to entice consumers ..
That would be my suggestion but GM for some reason didn't call me for advice.
03-01-2018, 04:45 PM
#57
Pro
I fear that you are a state in of denial about this price. GM simply cannot create what we've seen in the exposed leaks for anything close to that money. We are in nosebleed territory with all of the European mid engine vehicles right now. The transmission shown is a ZF dual clutch transmission, magneto rheological shocks as well as the same for engine mounts. This is very high dollar technology. if you want to enjoy any of it, not only do you have to stand in line for your chance but you'll need to considerably drain your wallet.
Last edited by ltomn; 03-01-2018 at 04:48 PM.
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skank (03-02-2018)
03-01-2018, 04:57 PM
#58
Pro
First, I firmly believe the base HP on the C8 is likely to be 650 hp! Then they will have a 750 and an 850 hp engine. That is what the leaks are showing. As for the amount they will sell, it didn't hurt Ford to only offer 1000 GT's for $450k. Expect a sellout of that many, or more, C8's the first year. The C8 will easily base in the $150k range! Add on the extras to top $200k.
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skank (03-02-2018)
03-01-2018, 10:10 PM
#59
Race Director
First, I firmly believe the base HP on the C8 is likely to be 650 hp! Then they will have a 750 and an 850 hp engine. That is what the leaks are showing. As for the amount they will sell, it didn't hurt Ford to only offer 1000 GT's for $450k. Expect a sellout of that many, or more, C8's the first year. The C8 will easily base in the $150k range! Add on the extras to top $200k.
Till then we can agree to disagree
03-01-2018, 10:40 PM
#60
My bet will be if the msrp starts at 80k the corvette will be discontinued in less than 3 years due to lack of sales. Just like the viper.
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JerriVette (03-03-2018)