Could GMs Plan be to force Stingray buyers to Camaro by pricing the C8 high?
02-20-2018, 10:30 AM
#41
Le Mans Master
Well played. I had forgotten about the 928. I'm still skeptical that's what GM is doing, but it seems there is precedent for it. Thanks.
02-20-2018, 01:53 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
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Although the C8 designation has been widely used in almost every reference to the upcoming ME car GM is far more secretive with designations than photos or CAD images. It's all by choice, GM can keep secrets or leak information better than government agencies.
02-20-2018, 02:12 PM
#43
Tech Contributor
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They will both consist of the same parts just like any other car or truck, both will have plastic bodies with about the same amount of material. The only difference will be where the occupants sit and where the engine/drivetrain are located. Same parts gets you the same cost whether front or mid engine, same body materials and amounts gets you the same cost and there is no difference in assembly cost based on where the parts are located. Every car/truck manufactured takes in the range of 19 to 20 total assembly hours charged to that vehicle. The only difference in price will be what they can charge for it. For example it doesn't cost more than a few percentage points more to build a Escalade than it does a Cruze but there is a huge percentage point gap in price. For example a Cruze may cost GM 95% of the cost of an Escalade to build but the Cruze sells for 25% of the price of an Escalade. After the initial engineering and manufacturing tooling investments are paid off the Corvette probably costs about the same to build as an Escalade (which is a little bit more than a Cruze) and the sale price of each isn't much different.
Bill
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02-20-2018, 02:27 PM
#44
Banned Scam/Spammer
I lost my train of thought while being dramatic.
Conclusion is no one knows whats going on. Hell, I thought there was no way GM would release the 2018 with the same Trans. Too many things on the table. People are going to go see the c8 at maybe a higher price right next to a z06 with the same price? Base c8 and c7 10-15K from each other on the same lot and same years? Something needs to be taken out.
Its like going to the bunny ranch with only enough for one.... ride. You will always wonder if you chose right.
02-20-2018, 02:35 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
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I lost my train of thought while being dramatic.
Conclusion is no one knows whats going on. Hell, I thought there was no way GM would release the 2018 with the same Trans. Too many things on the table. People are going to go see the c8 at maybe a higher price right next to a z06 with the same price? Base c8 and c7 10-15K from each other on the same lot and same years? Something needs to be taken out.
Its like going to the bunny ranch with only enough for one.... ride. You will always wonder if you chose right.
Conclusion is no one knows whats going on. Hell, I thought there was no way GM would release the 2018 with the same Trans. Too many things on the table. People are going to go see the c8 at maybe a higher price right next to a z06 with the same price? Base c8 and c7 10-15K from each other on the same lot and same years? Something needs to be taken out.
Its like going to the bunny ranch with only enough for one.... ride. You will always wonder if you chose right.
02-20-2018, 03:28 PM
#46
Other than the typical yearly inflation price adjustment why would the price of a C8 be any higher than a C7?
They will both consist of the same parts just like any other car or truck, both will have plastic bodies with about the same amount of material. The only difference will be where the occupants sit and where the engine/drivetrain are located. Same parts gets you the same cost whether front or mid engine, same body materials and amounts gets you the same cost and there is no difference in assembly cost based on where the parts are located. Every car/truck manufactured takes in the range of 19 to 20 total assembly hours charged to that vehicle. The only difference in price will be what they can charge for it. For example it doesn't cost more than a few percentage points more to build a Escalade than it does a Cruze but there is a huge percentage point gap in price. For example a Cruze may cost GM 95% of the cost of an Escalade to build but the Cruze sells for 25% of the price of an Escalade. After the initial engineering and manufacturing tooling investments are paid off the Corvette probably costs about the same to build as an Escalade (which is a little bit more than a Cruze) and the sale price of each isn't much different.
Bill
They will both consist of the same parts just like any other car or truck, both will have plastic bodies with about the same amount of material. The only difference will be where the occupants sit and where the engine/drivetrain are located. Same parts gets you the same cost whether front or mid engine, same body materials and amounts gets you the same cost and there is no difference in assembly cost based on where the parts are located. Every car/truck manufactured takes in the range of 19 to 20 total assembly hours charged to that vehicle. The only difference in price will be what they can charge for it. For example it doesn't cost more than a few percentage points more to build a Escalade than it does a Cruze but there is a huge percentage point gap in price. For example a Cruze may cost GM 95% of the cost of an Escalade to build but the Cruze sells for 25% of the price of an Escalade. After the initial engineering and manufacturing tooling investments are paid off the Corvette probably costs about the same to build as an Escalade (which is a little bit more than a Cruze) and the sale price of each isn't much different.
Bill
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02-20-2018, 03:36 PM
#47
Team Owner
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02-20-2018, 03:44 PM
#48
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02-20-2018, 04:32 PM
#50
Team Owner
Do you really think going ME will result in a minimal price change for Corvette, comparative to say going from a c6 to a c7? More and more parts are not going to be shared with other platforms with these change for starters. Then there is the changes necessary on the dealership maintenance side. You are also going to be selling less of these than prior generations, so the price will have to increase just to keep profits up.
02-20-2018, 04:34 PM
#51
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02-20-2018, 04:48 PM
#52
Do you really think going ME will result in a minimal price change for Corvette, comparative to say going from a c6 to a c7? More and more parts are not going to be shared with other platforms with these change for starters. Then there is the changes necessary on the dealership maintenance side. You are also going to be selling less of these than prior generations, so the price will have to increase just to keep profits up.
Also, this debut is just for fun
we will see soon enough sir!
02-20-2018, 04:50 PM
#53
Safety Car
So you think the ME car will start at like 130k, with the higher models presumably costing as much as 150k or more ?
The only way that would make sense is if the upcoming C8 remains front engine and the ME car is a totally separate line intended to compete head to head against high end Porsche and McLaren buyers.
I think the ME is the C8.
I guess the base ME/C8 will cost around 60-70k. (A little more than a C7 but nothing drastic) It will have an atmospheric pushrod engine making somewhere north of 500hp. The Z06 and ZR1 models will use a twin turbo DOHC, making at least 700-800hp.
The only way that would make sense is if the upcoming C8 remains front engine and the ME car is a totally separate line intended to compete head to head against high end Porsche and McLaren buyers.
I think the ME is the C8.
I guess the base ME/C8 will cost around 60-70k. (A little more than a C7 but nothing drastic) It will have an atmospheric pushrod engine making somewhere north of 500hp. The Z06 and ZR1 models will use a twin turbo DOHC, making at least 700-800hp.
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02-20-2018, 07:04 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
Other than the typical yearly inflation price adjustment why would the price of a C8 be any higher than a C7?
They will both consist of the same parts just like any other car or truck, both will have plastic bodies with about the same amount of material. The only difference will be where the occupants sit and where the engine/drivetrain are located. Same parts gets you the same cost whether front or mid engine, same body materials and amounts gets you the same cost and there is no difference in assembly cost based on where the parts are located. Every car/truck manufactured takes in the range of 19 to 20 total assembly hours charged to that vehicle. The only difference in price will be what they can charge for it. For example it doesn't cost more than a few percentage points more to build a Escalade than it does a Cruze but there is a huge percentage point gap in price. For example a Cruze may cost GM 95% of the cost of an Escalade to build but the Cruze sells for 25% of the price of an Escalade. After the initial engineering and manufacturing tooling investments are paid off the Corvette probably costs about the same to build as an Escalade (which is a little bit more than a Cruze) and the sale price of each isn't much different.
Bill
They will both consist of the same parts just like any other car or truck, both will have plastic bodies with about the same amount of material. The only difference will be where the occupants sit and where the engine/drivetrain are located. Same parts gets you the same cost whether front or mid engine, same body materials and amounts gets you the same cost and there is no difference in assembly cost based on where the parts are located. Every car/truck manufactured takes in the range of 19 to 20 total assembly hours charged to that vehicle. The only difference in price will be what they can charge for it. For example it doesn't cost more than a few percentage points more to build a Escalade than it does a Cruze but there is a huge percentage point gap in price. For example a Cruze may cost GM 95% of the cost of an Escalade to build but the Cruze sells for 25% of the price of an Escalade. After the initial engineering and manufacturing tooling investments are paid off the Corvette probably costs about the same to build as an Escalade (which is a little bit more than a Cruze) and the sale price of each isn't much different.
Bill
Last edited by fasttoys; 02-20-2018 at 07:08 PM.
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02-20-2018, 08:57 PM
#55
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So you think the ME car will start at like 130k, with the higher models presumably costing as much as 150k or more ?
The only way that would make sense is if the upcoming C8 remains front engine and the ME car is a totally separate line intended to compete head to head against high end Porsche and McLaren buyers.
I think the ME is the C8.
I guess the base ME/C8 will cost around 60-70k. (A little more than a C7 but nothing drastic) It will have an atmospheric pushrod engine making somewhere north of 500hp. The Z06 and ZR1 models will use a twin turbo DOHC, making at least 700-800hp.
The only way that would make sense is if the upcoming C8 remains front engine and the ME car is a totally separate line intended to compete head to head against high end Porsche and McLaren buyers.
I think the ME is the C8.
I guess the base ME/C8 will cost around 60-70k. (A little more than a C7 but nothing drastic) It will have an atmospheric pushrod engine making somewhere north of 500hp. The Z06 and ZR1 models will use a twin turbo DOHC, making at least 700-800hp.
That business case cannot be supported by capitalist logic at a publicly traded company. I could always be wrong, however I don't think GM has invested hundreds of millions to produce a revolutionary mid engine C8 Corvette that sells less than 40k units per year at the same or slightly higher profit margin than the C7. Possibly if there were other models of GM cars or other business units of GM moving into the 500,000 plus square feet of additional floor space at BG it could greatly influence my opinion into believing an ME C8 will be sold at the lower MSRP ($60-70k)you suggest.
I only know for certain the facts that have been published by GM like you and everyone else, however we all interpret data differently and my interpretation leans towards a business case designed to increase profits. The ME is a means to generate higher profits on top of current C7 sales and future front engine C8 sales first and foremost.
1-ME "halo car" produced in lower volume / higher profit margin similar in design to competing cars raced in the ALMS Series GTLM division. ME will be more expensive car with more leading edge technology produced for a demographic with more disposable income. It will be produced in the additional floor space in BG alongside C7 until the end of C7 run.
2-After C7 run, the front engine C8 takes over the spot in line selling similar volume to C7 to same demographic that purchased previous generation Corvettes.
The front engine long front hoodline is a style loved by many and always will be. Case in point the Ferrari California and Ferrari F12 Berlinetta. GM (Chevrolet) will not let this traditional Corvette profile die in the weeds, the FE C8 Corvette will live on but will have a new and improved mid engine stablemate produced alongside of it.
I respect your opinion, I just interpret the entirety of facts associated with BG expansion and what we read here differently.
I may well be 100% wrong and won't have a problem if all I've posted is worthless and proven wrong. No matter what the outcome I think we will all be surprised in more than one way of how this story plays out.
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02-20-2018, 09:19 PM
#56
I see it playing out similar. C7 continues then ME for '20, C8 FE in '21 with ME short run production to run at Lemans. I don't think the ME will be a high production car, maybe 5k annually.
I don't think GM is ready to move the corvette away from its roots entirely. C8 FE will sell every bit as well as the C7 or better.
I don't think GM is ready to move the corvette away from its roots entirely. C8 FE will sell every bit as well as the C7 or better.
02-21-2018, 12:06 AM
#57
Why would Bowling Green assembly plant add over a half million square feet to produce one line with half the volume (according to North American engine forecasts ) or even the same volume at the same profit margin?
That business case cannot be supported by capitalist logic at a publicly traded company. I could always be wrong, however I don't think GM has invested hundreds of millions to produce a revolutionary mid engine C8 Corvette that sells less than 40k units per year at the same or slightly higher profit margin than the C7. Possibly if there were other models of GM cars or other business units of GM moving into the 500,000 plus square feet of additional floor space at BG it could greatly influence my opinion into believing an ME C8 will be sold at the lower MSRP ($60-70k)you suggest.
I only know for certain the facts that have been published by GM like you and everyone else, however we all interpret data differently and my interpretation leans towards a business case designed to increase profits. The ME is a means to generate higher profits on top of current C7 sales and future front engine C8 sales first and foremost.
1-ME "halo car" produced in lower volume / higher profit margin similar in design to competing cars raced in the ALMS Series GTLM division. ME will be more expensive car with more leading edge technology produced for a demographic with more disposable income. It will be produced in the additional floor space in BG alongside C7 until the end of C7 run.
2-After C7 run, the front engine C8 takes over the spot in line selling similar volume to C7 to same demographic that purchased previous generation Corvettes.
The front engine long front hoodline is a style loved by many and always will be. Case in point the Ferrari California and Ferrari F12 Berlinetta. GM (Chevrolet) will not let this traditional Corvette profile die in the weeds, the FE C8 Corvette will live on but will have a new and improved mid engine stablemate produced alongside of it.
I respect your opinion, I just interpret the entirety of facts associated with BG expansion and what we read here differently.
I may well be 100% wrong and won't have a problem if all I've posted is worthless and proven wrong. No matter what the outcome I think we will all be surprised in more than one way of how this story plays out.
That business case cannot be supported by capitalist logic at a publicly traded company. I could always be wrong, however I don't think GM has invested hundreds of millions to produce a revolutionary mid engine C8 Corvette that sells less than 40k units per year at the same or slightly higher profit margin than the C7. Possibly if there were other models of GM cars or other business units of GM moving into the 500,000 plus square feet of additional floor space at BG it could greatly influence my opinion into believing an ME C8 will be sold at the lower MSRP ($60-70k)you suggest.
I only know for certain the facts that have been published by GM like you and everyone else, however we all interpret data differently and my interpretation leans towards a business case designed to increase profits. The ME is a means to generate higher profits on top of current C7 sales and future front engine C8 sales first and foremost.
1-ME "halo car" produced in lower volume / higher profit margin similar in design to competing cars raced in the ALMS Series GTLM division. ME will be more expensive car with more leading edge technology produced for a demographic with more disposable income. It will be produced in the additional floor space in BG alongside C7 until the end of C7 run.
2-After C7 run, the front engine C8 takes over the spot in line selling similar volume to C7 to same demographic that purchased previous generation Corvettes.
The front engine long front hoodline is a style loved by many and always will be. Case in point the Ferrari California and Ferrari F12 Berlinetta. GM (Chevrolet) will not let this traditional Corvette profile die in the weeds, the FE C8 Corvette will live on but will have a new and improved mid engine stablemate produced alongside of it.
I respect your opinion, I just interpret the entirety of facts associated with BG expansion and what we read here differently.
I may well be 100% wrong and won't have a problem if all I've posted is worthless and proven wrong. No matter what the outcome I think we will all be surprised in more than one way of how this story plays out.
02-21-2018, 03:13 AM
#58
Le Mans Master
First, if it is about repositioning the Camaro, I'd bet it's less about price more about retaining sales.
If, and it is a big if, the next Corvette is strictly mid engine, there will be many Corvette enthusiasts that will walk away from it. For many, the grand touring capabilities of the car had been just as important, if not more, then the performance aspect.
So, where does that leave them? GM has smartly positioned the Camaro's new generation in a near unilateral position with the Corvette. No, the Camaro is not, and will not ever be a Corvette, but the Alpha platform, the one that out handles the German's, makes it a serious contender. With interior options and materials not far from the Corvette, it's in a position to tempt the potential disenchanted Corvette loyalist. The Camaro is nothing like those old solid rear axle dragstrip runners of days gone past. It is a serious sports car in every way.
If, and it is a big if, the next Corvette is strictly mid engine, there will be many Corvette enthusiasts that will walk away from it. For many, the grand touring capabilities of the car had been just as important, if not more, then the performance aspect.
So, where does that leave them? GM has smartly positioned the Camaro's new generation in a near unilateral position with the Corvette. No, the Camaro is not, and will not ever be a Corvette, but the Alpha platform, the one that out handles the German's, makes it a serious contender. With interior options and materials not far from the Corvette, it's in a position to tempt the potential disenchanted Corvette loyalist. The Camaro is nothing like those old solid rear axle dragstrip runners of days gone past. It is a serious sports car in every way.
Last edited by lt4obsesses; 02-21-2018 at 03:15 AM.
02-21-2018, 04:48 AM
#59
Race Director
I keep hearing the passionate corvette enthusiast would or could walk away from corvettes if it goes rear mid engine....
Passionate enthusiasts who love the corvettes make these kind of messages verbalized until the c8 rear mid engine is revealed and the corvette owner decides to buy a new car...
Once a corvette owner decided to shop the competition...it ll be a relatively rare occurance that corvette enthusiast is going to trade in his corvette for anything but another corvette rear mid engine corvette..
I still remember hearing how "horrible" it was that GM left behind the round taillights when the c7 released...
Personally I never understood the fascination with round tail lights ...and looking at unit sales.....the c7 corvette without round taillights has been extremely successful in sales....
If we were to listen to all the corvette faithful on these various forums you would have thought without round taillights no one was going to buy the c7 which proved totally false....
Same will prove true for the rear mid engine corvette....
That rear mid engine corvette will not only have the best unit sales from multi generational corvettes...
Conquest sales from the german brands will be astronomical.
Same for the ultra exotic Italian brand owners...
Best sales in years for corvette when the c8 goes rear mid engine ...as long as the pricing stays close to previous years with traditional escalation give or take a few grand.,.
Passionate enthusiasts who love the corvettes make these kind of messages verbalized until the c8 rear mid engine is revealed and the corvette owner decides to buy a new car...
Once a corvette owner decided to shop the competition...it ll be a relatively rare occurance that corvette enthusiast is going to trade in his corvette for anything but another corvette rear mid engine corvette..
I still remember hearing how "horrible" it was that GM left behind the round taillights when the c7 released...
Personally I never understood the fascination with round tail lights ...and looking at unit sales.....the c7 corvette without round taillights has been extremely successful in sales....
If we were to listen to all the corvette faithful on these various forums you would have thought without round taillights no one was going to buy the c7 which proved totally false....
Same will prove true for the rear mid engine corvette....
That rear mid engine corvette will not only have the best unit sales from multi generational corvettes...
Conquest sales from the german brands will be astronomical.
Same for the ultra exotic Italian brand owners...
Best sales in years for corvette when the c8 goes rear mid engine ...as long as the pricing stays close to previous years with traditional escalation give or take a few grand.,.
02-21-2018, 06:40 AM
#60
Team Owner
First, if it is about repositioning the Camaro, I'd bet it's less about price more about retaining sales.
If, and it is a big if, the next Corvette is strictly mid engine, there will be many Corvette enthusiasts that will walk away from it. For many, the grand touring capabilities of the car had been just as important, if not more, then the performance aspect.
So, where does that leave them? GM has smartly positioned the Camaro's new generation in a near unilateral position with the Corvette. No, the Camaro is not, and will not ever be a Corvette, but the Alpha platform, the one that out handles the German's, makes it a serious contender. With interior options and materials not far from the Corvette, it's in a position to tempt the potential disenchanted Corvette loyalist. The Camaro is nothing like those old solid rear axle dragstrip runners of days gone past. It is a serious sports car in every way.
If, and it is a big if, the next Corvette is strictly mid engine, there will be many Corvette enthusiasts that will walk away from it. For many, the grand touring capabilities of the car had been just as important, if not more, then the performance aspect.
So, where does that leave them? GM has smartly positioned the Camaro's new generation in a near unilateral position with the Corvette. No, the Camaro is not, and will not ever be a Corvette, but the Alpha platform, the one that out handles the German's, makes it a serious contender. With interior options and materials not far from the Corvette, it's in a position to tempt the potential disenchanted Corvette loyalist. The Camaro is nothing like those old solid rear axle dragstrip runners of days gone past. It is a serious sports car in every way.
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